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Suicide

tomofson

Just thought I would share a few views on this subject and welcome any others

I recently replied to an ignorant commenter on here with an ignorant comment of my own that I didn't actually mean, I sort of suggested suicide was a cowardly action but that is actually not my view on the matter. Although I see how suicide can be perceived as cowardly I do not think it is, in fact I view it as being brave if anything... Being able to basically run head first in the unknown is not a cowardly thing to do... Nobody really knows what is there though people have their own theories, some think heaven/hell some think a forgiving god others think a vengeful god some think nothing at all while some like myself are completely unsure. To be able to take your own life with all this unknown to you could not be cowardly.... Ignorant/selfish maybe but not cowardly....

I have had those thoughts in my life as it has been far from easy for me although I dont think I have had the hardest life imaginable, far from it actually.... Dropped out of school at the beginning of second year for my own personal reasons which I will not get into on this... That is the reason I am not so articulate though I do try my best....

I am not crying out for attention by the way or trying to suggest I will commit such an act cause I know for a fact I wouldn't just thought I would open up a thread on the matter and make my views on the subject clear...

I have lost people to suicide and I dont see them as cowards...

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Wibbs

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Problem is when they are contacted the services are inadequate to deal with the issue as it can often be a long drawn out expensive process.

Plus there is a bewildering number of therapy avenues to take too. Never mind the efficacy or not of particular therapies. There can be a "fashion" element to the science involved. CBT was In, now it's more about mindfulness. That's before we get to the medications. The science is shaky on a few of them.

Put it another way, yes access can be an issue P, but on the other hand we have never had so many therapies, nor so many therapists, yet the incidence of mental illness is at best remaining the same. Something is wrong with that picture.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

No it's not a selfish act. Stop putting everyone else's feelings on someone who can't cope with their own feelings. Is it the right thing to do? No, probably not. But nobody would do something so drastic if they felt they had another option. Telling someone who is so sick that they want to end their life that they're selfish because their mam/dad/boyfriend/girlfriend would be heartbroken is selfish. They need help, not a guilt trip.

[Deleted User]

celligraphy wrote: »

Lost so many family members to this, it is selfish

dodderangler wrote: »

It is a selfish act

Not sure it is actually - at least not often. Do not tar all people who do it with the motivations of the few you may have known. Assuming you even knew what their motivations actually were.

I think a suicide leaves us emotionally devastated and confused and we want to explain it to ourselves and understand it. And simply assuming they were "selfish" gives us a quick label to latch on to to achieve that. Especially given one of the emotions we feel is anger - and the "selfish" label gives us something to disdain and pour that anger on. You risk judging the deceased unfairly - merely to alleviate your own suffering. Which is - to be fair - perfectly understandable. But not a good thing.

Yet I think if you talk to the people here - myself included - who have been touched by the suicide of others you will find that most of them remember the deceased as anything but selfish people prone to selfish decisions.

For my own part - those I have known who have been moved to suicide and have left behind details of their reasoning - it was clear their decisions was long and deep and thought out - and they genuinely did come to the conclusion it was the best decision. Not just for them - but for everyone around them too. I might (in all but 1 of the cases) think their reasoning in error - and would have moved to dissuade them had I had the chance - but I certainly could not even _remotely_ begin to describe their reasoning as cowardly.

But others who are moved to suicide are so due to depression and other issues. Calling the action "cowardly" in their context assumes a level of coherence and emotional stability and rationality that they simply did not have at the time. It is well worth watching the documentaries Stephen Fry has produced on his own condition and how he - and the people he included - feel during their "down" phases. Hear from them what it is actually like in those moments. And you will realise that words like "brave" or "cowardly" or the like simply do not apply - because they are almost entirely incapable of the level of rationality or emotion required to make a decision of that nature.

I myself never really considered suicide seriously. The option did occur to me at times but I never really considered engaging with it. There were times in my life however - before I engaged with a great act of will and turned my path in life around - where I used to lie in bed at night waiting for sleep and I was literally willing myself not to wake up in the morning. I have read of people who simply died in their bed when they "gave up" on life. And I used to lie there literally telling myself "I give up - I am done - let me never wake up again" and my last thoughts before falling asleep would be to imagine that my heart was slowing to a stop.

So I have some insight into how deeply people can fall into that void and looking back I really can not hang the word "selfish" on anything I was feeling or wanting at the time. I was not blind or ignorant of the effect my death would have on others - it was fore in my mind - but the depths I was at simply outweighed that concern. And in fact many of those depths informed me that such people would be better off with me gone - which outweighed any short or medium term pain my passing would cause.

I fear the greatest battle we have against suicide is the general publics understanding of it. And of mental health issues and the stigma around it. And I genuinely fear that many people _want_ to think of suicide as a cowardly or hateful act because they fear that to do otherwise would destigmatise suicide and lead to more people doing it.

I think that fear is an error - but I can not fault the placement of the heart of anyone making it. It is a genuine and rational concern to have that destigmatising the act and motivations of suicide _could_ have detrimental effects. Could - but I do not think would - and there is work to be done to convince the general public of that too.

[Deleted User]

Whispered wrote: »

I think it's important to point out that for some there might be embarrassment in looking for help, but for many it's just sheer exhaustion. They just feel that they can not keep fighting, that no matter what help they get it doesn't matter, they are in a rut and genuinely believe there is no other way out.

Yeah after 10 years of talking about it and still being told to talk things out to help it gets pretty tiresome.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Problem is when they are contacted the services are inadequate to deal with the issue as it can often be a long drawn out expensive process.

Much better to fund 230 charities rather than pay qualified people to provide proper services.

Wibbs wrote: »

Plus there is a bewildering number of therapy avenues to take too. Never mind the efficacy or not of particular therapies. There can be a "fashion" element to the science involved. CBT was In, now it's more about mindfulness. That's before we get to the medications. The science is shaky on a few of them.

Put it another way, yes access can be an issue P, but on the other hand we have never had so many therapies, nor so many therapists, yet the incidence of mental illness is at best remaining the same. Something is wrong with that picture.

It's the whole thing of everything having to have a name along with boredom. Spend 12 hours a day in a coal mine to feed your kids and see how long ya have to wallow and go into negative spirals. We evolved pretty quickly but living condition changed much more quickly and our minds haven't yet adapted (or many peoples' at least) to not having danger behind every rock, or not having something to keep us occupied until we fall asleep to then wake up and go again.

There are useful therapies but unfortunately psychiatry and psychology has become the worst blend of hard and soft sciences possible. Everything, everything is a condition. No-one is "wrong" but everyone has an identifiable issue or condition. Stick a label on it, start treating it. FFS the new DSM has removed the exemption for recent bereavement when diagnosing depression. So if you've been upset for a couple of weeks because someone died, you've got depression. It's bloody ridiculous.

As for the empiracal stuff. Well there we go again. Anti-depressants don't work how they theoretically should yet are doled out in greater and greater amounts. And they've become less effective over time, mayhaps in part because they're being doled out so willy-nilly. Then the physical side. Have a quick Google about the recent suggestions about MRI data. Laughable stuff and that's when trying to focus on a part of the brain involved in moving a single body part, now imagine when trying to focus on something as complex as mood and emotion.

In short, it's all a bit ****ed, there's money being made which is increasing year-on-year so we'll be continuing down this merry path.

Grayditch

People need to stop calling it selfish. You're looking at it from a reasoned, pragmatic viewpoint, when in reality there are demons in the persons head telling them everything would be better for themselves and everyone if they were gone.

[Deleted User]

Also I've tried to do the whole mindfulness thing malarky and just couldn't believe that it was a "thing" when it's almost entirely what I would've considered common sense.

mickstupp

YFlyer wrote: »

Are you disputing the benefits of TM?

Certainly made me feel a lot worse a lot quicker. In fact, any sort of meditation makes me feel worse. As Persepoly said, everyone's different.

[Deleted User]

IMO the desire for instant classification is an issue.

See a GP, they give you medication til you can see a counsellor or psychiatrist, you've already been put in a box. By the time you've seen a pro you've changed a bit but hard to know exactly how. Maybe try another medication which you're still adjusting to while trying CBT or meditation or keeping a diary or whatever. Another month passes, maybe you need to up the dose? Come back in a month.

Aside from emergencies there should be little prescribing for a while until a professional has a chance to have some sessions, give small pointers etc. Instead it's an all-out attack on a moving target from day 1 and the method of attack also dim the lights making the target even harder to see.

EDIT: Also as I said before about empirical evidence when it comes to something subjective like mood is awkward to begin with even before the fact that many studies are done with small (less than 100) sample sizes and everything is then branched out from that. Meta-studies can be useful but even then you're going to be gathering data with different definitions of categories and so on which makes it difficult.

[Deleted User]

mickstupp wrote: »

Certainly made me feel a lot worse a lot quicker. In fact, any sort of meditation makes me feel worse. As Persepoly said, everyone's different.

Yep I've been practising it for a few years now and while it works for me I understand how difficult it might be for others. The thing about meditation is you are alone with your own mind. That can be terrifying.

ectoraige

So many suicides seem to involve a belief that help is not available, and could not ever remove the pain the victims endure. Imagine if our mental health services we so well resourced that we could have a national mental health screening programme, along the lines of breastcheck, but for under 35s. It would be a revolution in our nation's mental health - not only would people know there is help available, it would reduce the stigma of mental health issues.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Also I've tried to do the whole mindfulness thing malarky and just couldn't believe that it was a "thing" when it's almost entirely what I would've considered common sense.

I have had good experiences with it myself. Directly and vicariously. I think the issue is too many people have a good experience with something and automatically want to tell the world about it and how it will fix all their problems. As if they have hit on a one size fits all solution to what ails you.

But when it works it works as they say. I took Vipassan up myself for a variety of reasons and it helped a lot. My enjoyment of it - rather than the benefits of it - caused me to put up an ad in the local college for entirely free guided medication "classes" at my home for any students who wanted to try it.

The response was a surprise. Not only was there more students than I expected who showed up - but over time people who were not students showed up. Either by word of mouth or they were for whatever reason on the campus and saw my flyer.

And aside from the people who just came for fun or interest - I have had people come hoping it would help them with various issues. Depression was one. But I have one scarey looking guy - who on many levels turned out to be a wonderful softie - who was there for anger management.

And a few for addiction issues (alchohol mainly but one case of gambling). I even attracted a trainee priest from the locality who wanted it to help his spiritual introspection and to deal with his faith doubts. Which causes no end of comical distress to my fundie mad religious neighbour who was convinced I was corrupting this priest to my own evil atheist and sexually immoral ends and agendas.

And most recently I have had a cop who came hoping it would help him deal with the stresses and - lets face it - periodic human horrors - that he sees and deals with in his job.

And they all genuinely feel it has helped them. Some greatly. And it did not cost them a penny. They just show up at my house - hang out a while - go through some guidance from me - and go off on their day. No snake oil sales man putting them out of pocket in any way (though I do admit - some of the students do occasionally move to "pay" me in some pretty high quality grass of the smoking variety - and the big scary angry guy once brought me - wait for this - a batch of pink iced cup cakes. With sparkly sugar. Picture The Riddick in a flowery apron covered in flour and icing sugar).

So I am definitely one who would readily espouse the _potential_ benefits of this pursuit to anyone.

However I could not stress the word "potential" hard enough - let alone would I jump on anyone who expresses doubt or caution with standoffish lines like "Are you disputing the benefits???" as we have seen on this thread.

One of the attributes of Vipassana style techniques is to train yourself to "notice" desires and emotions and thoughts as they arise - to observe it - and let it pass on it's way - rather than simply be a slave to responding to the next neurotic idea that careens into consciousness. And that _can_ be a very beneficial skill in _some_ forms of depression - where some unchecked trigger thought or emotion cascades into a domino spiral effect that sends someone into the depths of self doubt or hatred.

Jon Kabat-Zinn would be an example of someone who has created a center for incorporating mindfullness meditation into "medicine, heath care and society".

But as I say - I can not use words like "can" and "potential" and "sometimes" often or hard enough. Even at my most strident and preachy on the subject of meditation the most I would want to advise anyone suffering from depression or suicidal thoughts is - simply try it for awhile.

Unlike a lot of quack medicines and cures and treatments - it is entirely free - no one has to be selling you anything - and it is not couched or based in any woo - unsubstantiated nonsense - or lies. The benefits of it are entirely devoid of the requirement to subscribe to anything on insufficient evidence.

Whispered

Deleted User wrote: »

IMO the desire for instant classification is an issue.

See a GP, they give you medication til you can see a counsellor or psychiatrist, you've already been put in a box.

My experience with a GP really had me wondering just how many people are on meds when they are not needed. I went to my GP for help. She INSTANTLY prescribed me with antidepressants. I mean I had barely the sentence out of my mouth when she was scribbling away.

I was there because I actually have pernicious anaemia, which is a very easily treated deficiency which can cause the symptoms I had. I wasn't depressed or anything like it, but I had to argue with my doctor to have it checked. Absolutely ridiculous!

As an aside, I'd urge anybody with symptoms of depression to ask to have their bloods checked if the doctor doesn't offer it. Too quick to throw meds at people without looking at underlying causes.

livedadream

its one of those things isnt it... no one will ever really know

its selfish for the people let behind because you think why couldnt he have just talked to me or if he felt that bleak why didnt he say ti to me, or doesn't he know how much we love him, will miss him...

its selfish because you are only thinking of yourself in a negative way.

but

with stats of 10 people killing themselves a week in Ireland 8 men and 2 women you have to look past that.

for many is a case of they will be better of without me, thats not selfish to the person who feels so worthless and down that they think the world will be a better place without them.

to anyone struggling, NO the world will not be a better place without you, you serve a purpose.

Get help ask for help, its okay not to be okay.

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Two Tone

lawlolawl wrote: »

If you don't have the perfect Facebook life or strive for it, you may as well not exist and if you are anything other than endlessly positive and upbeat then people want nothing to do with you.

I'm saying this from personal experience.

I think there is a shift in that kind of thinking now though, with the recognition of special snowflakes and perpetual victimhood. People are realising it's ok not to be happy all the time and not to have an ideal life and that you're (the general "you") not special and you are responsible for yourself and life can be hard - deal with it instead of being a victim who feels they deserve the perfect happy life.

This perfect sunshiney life thing, denying life can be hard, was I'd say something that caught on in the 1970s - "you deserve an amazing life because you're amazing". So damaging. No good person deserves an awful hard life, but unfortunately it happens, and the skills to deal with it are what's needed, rather than "You poor thing - be a victim until your life is perfect thanks to other people making it happen for you."

It's ok to be down and not forced positive all the time too, but people will keep away from someone who is endlessly in really bad form/negative.

YFlyer

mickstupp wrote: »

Certainly made me feel a lot worse a lot quicker. In fact, any sort of meditation makes me feel worse. As Persepoly said, everyone's different.

Did you mention it to your TM teacher? He or she would most likely advise you to cut the meditation session to 5 or 10 minutes.

Lady is a tramp

Funnily enough my dad just brought this up with me. Saying that it was "insensitive" of me to say I was suicidal at various times. That it was very upsetting for them, etc.

Thing is, it's not that I wasn't thinking of my family. I was. In my view, at the time, yes I knew they'd be very upset in the short term. But I honestly thought that in the long term, everyone would be better off without me around. In fact, I convinced myself they'd be secretly breathing a sigh of relief when they finally got THAT phonecall. That they wouldn't need to worry about me any more.

Thankfully I haven't felt like that very often.

I was told yesterday that I'm missing the connection between my logical brain and my emotional brain. That most of the time, I'm logical, super-logical in fact, and extremely emotionally over-controlled. But when I do feel emotions - happy, sad, angry, whatever - I'm completely overwhelmed by them, I just can't cope. I feel too much when I DO feel anything. When I'm happy, I can't remember ever being sad ... and vice versa, when I'm in the depths, I can't convince myself I ever have or ever will be happy ever again.

Now I know that makes it sound like I'm completely f*cked up in the head (and I am!) But to everyone else, friends, family, boyfriends, I've appeared "normal" on the outside for most of my life.

So I can see why family members and friends are hurt and angry by suicide, that they wish the person had just talked to them ... they just don't know though how deep that person's emotions and feelings go, and how well they're hidden. From the outside, it can seem like it was a flippant stupid act. For the person, it can seem like the obvious natural solution, and in everyone's best interest.

For anyone contemplating it, I'd say talk talk talk, seek help, demand help, get through an hour at a time. Things can always ALWAYS get better ... except if you end your life, and then there's no more second chances. Everyone deserves a chance at a happy life. I'm SO lucky to have a mental health team who I have a great relationship with, who know me inside out and refuse to give up on me, no matter how much reason I give them to! And - while I'm still f*cked up mentally (ptsd etc) - I have a lot of hope for the future. And I'm SO glad I held on through the times when that hope wasnt there for me anymore.

Maximus Alexander

I don't think it's cowardly. I think it comes from a place of abject despair and overpowering hopelessness that would be quite difficult to understand unless you've been there or close. I can only sympathise with people who find themselves in that place, and indeed with their families and friends if they choose to follow through. I've been to some dark places myself, but my overriding thought is that it can't get any worse and if one carries on they don't know what joys or pleasures the future might hold, but if they end their life they can be certain that there will be none.

If you're having these kinds of thoughts, seek help. You can be helped and there's no shame in it.

Galwayguy35

A relation of mine hung herself when she was 75, no health problems or money worries so no idea what the reason was.

Then her next door neighbour went to her funeral and hung himself afterwards.

Two Tone

I would agree it could be argued that it is selfish (even if that is a very base assessment of it; obviously each case needs to be examined individually) but not cowardly. I think it's very brave actually.

brianomc

I would argue that it's not selfish. When I was at my lowest and wanted to end things one of the reasons for wanting to do so was that it would make things easier for those I loved. They wouldn't have to put up with the mood swings, worrying about me, etc. In my head I was putting them first.

And for those who say that after telling people to "talk about it" for ten years it's getting stale, believe me, as soon you tell one person that you don't feel ok it lifts a huge weight off your shoulders. Speaking from personal experience, maybe don't tell your mother that you wish you were dead while eating in your favourite restaurant, I don't think either of us have been back there since I said that to her.

Talking about it helps remove the stigma that depression is something that should be hidden or that you should be ashamed to have it. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there or isn't a real illness.

Being fairly open about it among my friends has allowed some of those to open up to me when they aren't feeling 100%. The 1% that tell you to snap out of it, or just get over it, well you won't miss not having them as friends to be honest. http://www.robot-hugs.com/helpful-advice/

I believe the reason it's not mentioned on the news is not that it's not seen as a problem like motoring accidents are but that they are afraid of publicising it in case it pushes someone to take their own life. I heard that somewhere but can't back it up with facts.

Two Tone

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

that makes it sound like I'm completely f*cked up in the head (and I am!)

:pac:
I'm no psychologist but with that level of humour, self deprecation and self awareness, I would say you'll be fine.

mickstupp

YFlyer wrote: »

Did you mention it to your TM teacher? He or she would most likely advise you to cut the meditation session to 5 or 10 minutes.

Why on earth would I do any meditation at all, when it all makes me feel worse?

Just because something works for someone, or even most people, doesn't mean it makes a single bit of difference to another. Nor does it mean it's not actively harmful to another person.

[Deleted User]

1.618 wrote: »

This 'It's a selfish thing to do' gets right on my tits.

Someone feels so fcuking sh!t that they take their own life. Then people go....'Terrible selfish thing to do........he/she should have stayed in constant, excruciating pain for years to come so we didn't have feel a bit sh!t for a while...... the selfish fecker'

He felt so bad he fcukin killed himself ffs !

I would implore anyone feeling this bad to make that 2 min call. You will find it will help.

Yes, exactly.
"They should have got help instead". From who, the people calling them selfish and cowardly? Emotional guilt tripping? You think that's going to help someone who's so messed up?

Lady is a tramp

bluewolf wrote: »

Yes, exactly.
"They should have got help instead". From who, the people calling them selfish and cowardly? Emotional guilt tripping? You think that's going to help someone who's so messed up?

This, so much this!

If I'm feeling so low that I think I'd be better off dead, my sense of self-worth -is through the floor ... I find it SO difficult to even accept help from my wonderful psychiatric consultant and counsellor (who have both saved my life more than once.) I mean I couldn't tell you how many times that I've told them their time is wasted on me, that they should leave me be and spend time on patients that might actually be "fixable", that I'm too broken to ever be fixed. (I'm just lucky that they happen to be as stubborn as me, maybe even more so!)

If you're feeling that bad, then just to reach out in ANY way when you're so vulnerable is MASSIVE! And the guilt is immense already ... the last thing you need is more heaped on top.

Mam of 4

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

This, so much this!

If I'm feeling so low that I think I'd be better off dead, my sense of self-worth -is through the floor ... I find it SO difficult to even accept help from my wonderful psychiatric consultant and counsellor (who have both saved my life more than once.) I mean I couldn't tell you how many times that I've told them their time is wasted on me, that they should leave me be and spend time on patients that might actually be "fixable", that I'm too broken to ever be fixed. (I'm just lucky that they happen to be as stubborn as me, maybe even more so!)

If you're feeling that bad, then just to reach out in ANY way when you're so vulnerable is MASSIVE! And the guilt is immense already ... the last thing you need is more heaped on top.

Thank you for being so honest with your posts , you are an inspiration to others believe me.

My son has been suicidal . More than once or twice. BUT every time he has told me and we talk , and we drive and we talk and talk and talk, whatever is needed at that time .(He is seeing a psychiatrist and is on meds also)

The common thread ? To make all the hurt and pain in his head just stop. It just becomes too much to bear , so I don't think it's a selfish thing for anyone to contemplate doing to be honest .

I wish I had the words to express how it feels when you can see someone you love feeling so bad and you can't fix it for them .

Except to always be there for them ,that's what matters.

Good luck to everyone fighting this battle , everyday is a new day and has the potential to be better than the one before.

curiousoranje

I don't think it's selfish or cowardly, life isn't for everyone. Plus, when people say get help, what exactly do they mean by help? Go to an ER or get brought there by the guards. Sit there feel like you're in the way while nobody wants to take responsibility for you and get sent home a few hours later none the better? go to GP who'll throw antidepressants at you or who'll refer you to free HSE clinic where a psych will do the throwing? ring Samaritans where you'll be gently patronised and hmm'd and hawwd at for a few minutes?

I've family members and close friends with mental illness/depression (2 lost to suicide) who've tried to access this magical help that people are always going on about. I distinctly remember one nurse in James asking if my suicidal relative had health insurance. When I told her they didn't she said "ah that's a pity, Pats have some great programmes if he did."

Only decent help I've seen actually work is Pieta House, but even that's only for 14 weeks. After that it's back to bumbling low cost counsellors if you happen to be poor.

Two Tone

I do think it is cowardly when by the likes of Fred West and nazi war criminals. The big tough bullies unable to face up to what they did.

Gbear

It's a sensitive subject and maybe I'm just projecting my own feelings. I haven't met many depressed people, never mind all of them.

Anyways...

Some of the language used around depression and suicide tends towards pussy-footing, like anything might set us off.
The urge to normalise the discussion around it is important and certainly a good thing, but that doesn't mean saying anything and everything is beneficial.
Certainly my hesitancy to discuss how I'm getting on with people hasn't helped my own issues. It could be that education from a young age to be more open about these things is an important step.

I think one of the worst thing a depressed person can do is pretend that depression is like cancer. It really isn't.
The fatalism associated with pretending that it's something completely outside you does nobody any favours.

Yes, there are things going on in your brain that you can't control, but they're not completely determining what you do and you can take very mundane actions to at least somewhat correct it.
Your diet, your hygiene, your appearance, the amount you excercise - there are always things you can do to effect your mood, both in terms of chemical changes in your brain, and in terms of more abstract ideas like your self-esteem. These are true of everyone and not just depressed people.

If you feel your life is fundamentally broken then those probably won't blast all your cares away in a swish of endorphins, and, indeed, there are people who do all those things and more and still can't cope.

Regardless, people always have choices beyond killing themselves.
There are plenty of simple fixes to depression. Simple is not the same thing as easy, however.
In a literal sense, you can just "turn that frown upside down" but it's not by coincidence that people struggle to do that.

An abdication of responsibility, rationalisations, taking easier, emotionally seductive paths. These are the issues people choose to wrestle with. The more they're worn down the weaker their mental defences become against such thought processes. They are most certainly choices however.

Being patronising can do more harm than telling people some home truths.
For a while I slid into that kind of fatalism and my psychologist basically told me to stop acting the bollocks (she had more tact about it:pac:).

There's no doubt in my mind that if I had decided to take my life it would've been a completely selfish act.

You don't owe anyone anything, whether you're depressed or not.
You're completely at liberty to do with your life what you will.
Selfishness kinda gets a bad reputation, but sometimes it's perfectly reasonable, as is suicide (assisted dying, for example).

The decision to end your own suffering, whether it can be fixed or not, at the expense of the happiness of others is most certainly selfish. That doesn't mean it's unreasonable though.

The knowledge that I would destroy the lives of my family if I took my life pushed me away from suicide (although I can't say for sure that cowardice wasn't also involved).
Thankfully the worst I ever got was being a bit twitchy while driving down some empty country lanes.
Then you've got a split-second to think and maybe you might just do something drastic, almost as a reflex.
You face the fact that you could die very easily. You can think that innocently sometimes but when you're in a bit of a heap it hits home a bit harder and it can even have a kind of exhilarating feeling - just saying **** everything and having done with it on a whim can have a certain macabre appeal.

I don't think the thing to worry about with depression and suicide is guilting people by pointing out when they're being irrational.
I think it's important to be honest about what they can do, how their decisions impact others and that kind of thing. Telling the truth.
If they're feeling guilty because you tell them they'll destroy their family if they kill themselves. Good. They should. That a reasonable emotion to experience and being depressed shouldn't be an excuse to hide from that.
However, you need to balance that against them not feeling all the guilt that they shouldn't be feeling.

If someone respects you enough to call you on your bull****, then you might actually take what they're saying to heart about the stuff that you shouldn't be worrying about, or that you still have the power to fix.

TMJM96

It's interesting to see how it's essentially an epidemic among the younger generations. In six years of secondary three people close to me committed suicide, in my first year of college two people I knew killed themselves.

I entirely blame the lack of awareness about the topic made in secondary school. Nothing was said about it until it happened, we were told we could talk to those we trust but that's it. When I was 17 I tried getting help because I knew I mentally was not well. I was essentially brushed off by those in my school so I decided to approach the HSE. I was put on a waiting list of 18 months. I knew that nothing would happen and by that time I'd be in college. My college has an excellent counselling service which I availed of and luckily I no longer feel the need for it. The college also offers mindfulness workshops and also workshops for the incoming first years. However the service is heavily strained and at times it cannot handle the amount of students using it. I'm assuming they were similar to me and never had a service like this available to them before.

As for whether it's selfish or not, I entirely agree that it isn't. Unless you've ever been in that pit of despair where you can't see any escape, it is difficult for you to comment.

YFlyer

mickstupp wrote: »

Why on earth would I do any meditation at all, when it all makes me feel worse?

Just because something works for someone, or even most people, doesn't mean it makes a single bit of difference to another. Nor does it mean it's not actively harmful to another person.

You did learn technique or not?