recedite wrote: » O'Connell is the courageous one, and also a good deal smarter than most of her colleagues there. The flouride debate when she was a councillor is slightly off topic, but hilarious...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wReANdzf3b4
Also according to the account, the the CMO did not say constitutional protection was extended to anything capable of being "born alive" but just "born". Which also indicates no scope for FFA abortion. I agree though, that its not actually a legal opinion. Unless the CMO got it elsewhere from a legal source.
recedite wrote: » My first impression was different, but I would not argue with you on either those points. The whole thing is too far into BS territory anyway. Arguing over whether a miscarriage is born or not, or whether a foetus expelled after the mother has been involved in a car crash is like arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Likewise with trying to interpret what Harris is trying to say. He's a nice lad, but he has been hoisted too far up the political ladder too soon.
recedite wrote: » All I'll say about that is "the cabinet" has evolved over time as a feature of the British govt. which has a flexible unwritten constitution. But there is no cabinet in the written Irish constitution and therefore no cabinet, and no "cabinet confidentiality". Despite what the various RTE reporters and numerous govt. ministers would have you believe.
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » It'd be hard to argue that the 8th offers protection to a foetus incapable of being born alive, the difficulty is in making a diagnosis that live birth is impossible (as opposed to survival for a very short time.)
Absolam wrote: » the term cabinet is simply used to refer to the Government of the day.
aloyisious wrote: » What I'd like to know is if the Ministers are in any way guided in their thoughts on the abortion issue by their spouses. I'd imagine the souses, as women, would have to have views on such an issue. I'm wondering if the younger FG and other Ministers are getting such guidance.
recedite wrote: » I think you'll find that the term "cabinet" tends to be used to refer to a subset of senior govt. ministers, as picked out by the Taoiseach; a cabaal of the most influential if you like. Whereas "the government" as defined in the constitution comprises all the ministers.
aloyisious wrote: » What I'd like to know is if the Ministers are in any way guided in their thoughts on the abortion issue by their spouses. I'd imagine the spouses, as women, would have to have views on such an issue. I'm wondering if the younger FG and other Ministers are getting such guidance. Edit: corrected my second mention of the word spouses to it's correct spelling, typo in the original.
aloyisious wrote: » http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/three-ministers-to-vote-for-fatal-foetal-abnormalities-bill-1.2709803 RTE Radio 1 ten o'clock news item re Wallace abortion bill, sounded like Shane Ross stating that the AG's advice was based on her belief that the Wallace bill would not withstand an onslaught in the SC, that he and two independents would vote for the bill. The quote was re-stated by Sean O'Rourke on his show after the news. It's being discussed on that show.
aloyisious wrote: » RTE Radio 1 ten o'clock news item re Wallace abortion bill, sounded like Shane Ross stating that the AG's advice was based on her belief that the Wallace bill would not withstand an onslaught in the SC, that he and two independents would vote for the bill. The quote was re-stated by Sean O'Rourke on his show after the news. It's being discussed on that show.
Loafing Oaf wrote: » Where does this leave their position in government?
aloyisious wrote: » The word cabinet is used in media, Oireachtas, popular and official circles as referring to the Taoiseach and his senior Ministers...
Loafing Oaf wrote: » http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/vincent-browne-column-abortion-2861500-Jul2016/ Vincent Browne saying Ross is constitutionally obliged not to support the bill. Doesn't spell out the consequences if he goes ahead and Enda doesn't sack him though...
volchitsa wrote: » Could some kind soul explain to me what is the interest for a pro-choice TD or party in supporting this bill? It's been rejected once already and even if it got to the debate stage it doesn't have the support to pass, and even if it did pass and was judged to be constitutional, its effect would be to allow the 8th to remain on the statute books. An improvement for families affected by FFA, of course, but hardly enough for legislators, considering all the other issues that the 8th and now POLDP has thrown up. Or am I missing something here?
Sir, – We write to support the hundreds of women a year who experience fatal foetal abnormalities in their pregnancy. We write also to express our respect for the support group Terminations For Medical Reasons and its efforts to secure wider access to abortion services in Ireland. The case of Amanda Mellet, who was refused access to an abortion in Ireland for a fatal foetal abnormality, and the hundreds of women who share that experience every year, is a cause of frustration and shame for the medical profession in Ireland, in that we are powerless to assist a woman undergoing “cruel and inhuman treatment” in the Irish health service, according to the United Nations, because of restrictive laws which lack popular support and are without a medical evidence base. It is repeatedly stated by anti-choice commentators that the term “fatal foetal abnormality” is not a medical term. Many of the terms used in the debate on access to abortion, such as “unborn child”, are not medical terms. However, in the case of “fatal foetal abnormality”, the 2010 Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists report Termination of Pregnancy for Fetal Abnormality, repeatedly uses the adjectives “fatal” and “lethal” with regard to foetal abnormality. It is therefore not accurate to insist that “fatal foetal abnormality” is not a medical term as this language is clearly used by medical professionals with expertise in this precise area of medical practice. This attempt to undermine the medical legitimacy of what is already a heartbreaking experience is causing hurt and distress and should stop. The distinction between fatal and non-fatal conditions is often certainly a matter of medical opinion as is generally the case for medical predictions. However, some conditions, such as anencephaly, are described in the report as “obviously fatal” by the college while in general it advocates a case by case approach for judgments on foetal abnormality and the decision to terminate a pregnancy. Doctors For Choice continues to support the view that the only person it is safe to have the final decision, on whether or not to terminate a pregnancy with an abortion, is the woman who is pregnant. A pedantic or legalistic approach to terminology in this debate is not helpful in our view, and abortion services should be properly dealt with like any other health service and follow the same ethical and legal requirements. We know of no medical requirement for special laws to regulate abortion, and we feel special, restrictive laws have only lead to the cruel and inhuman treatment of women that we have seen so far. It is time to repeal the Eighth Amendment by putting it to a referendum and then to repeal all special, restrictive laws to allow regulation of abortion be part of the regulation of all other health services and, in general, to trust women to be able to decide what is in their best interests in their particular circumstances. – Yours, etc, PEADAR O’GRADY, MAEVE FERRITER, TIERNAN MURRAY, Doctors For Choice, Dublin.
Absolam wrote: » Being seen to be supportive of a measure of abortion that has polled as being the most palatable circumstance for abortion to the electorate. And therefore supporting it is the least offensive, most vote gathering position any politician can take on the issue; you're pro choice, sympathetic to women in tough circumstances, but not a dangerous liberal intent on tearing down the very foundations of our great country. Winner winner chicken dinner.
“I have met many traumatised people through my work over the years, but the people who have affected me most, sometimes moving me to tears, are women who have had to go abroad for abortions because of cases of fatal foetal abnormality or rape. Sometimes you have to do what you think is right. If you can’t follow your conscience then you’re not up to much.”
aloyisious wrote: » Enda say's the independent's can have their free vote, he said FG did not have a majority in the Dail and couldn't dictate to others outside FG. Funny-peculiar thing i heard on an RTE Radio 1 show earlier. David Quinn contacting people for funding for the Iona Institute. The show host was wondering if the call for funding help was a wind-up or genuine, he mentioned a photo of D Quinn casually dressed being with the request. Would anyone else have heard the remark being passed casually on the show?
Loafing Oaf wrote: » John Halligan: But clearly that's all hot air and he's merely engaged in a cynical vote-getting exercise... Anyway Wallace for one openly advocates a liberal abortion law so he has no problem being perceived as a 'dangerous liberal'
