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Off Topic Thread 3.0

Zzippy

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Neil3030

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I was reading there about a town in Wales that has almost no immigration and is funded to a huge degree by the EU and they voted to leave. It just makes no sense to me how these people rationalise their decision?

That happened because Wales.

Ian Duncan Smith is now saying that the promises they made were actually more like a list of possibilities. How people are still fooled by these guys is beyond me.

Yup. It is dispiriting how easily people get conned, but in a land of 60+ million people you are going to get some very very convincing sociopaths.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Neil3030 wrote: »

Well for some politicians like Hannan, they have always branded themselves as eurosceptic and now was their time to shine. For Boris Johnson, this was a straight shoot at the Tory throne. For Farage, see Hannan, but with a primary motivation to establish himself as a leading populist figure, and UKIP as a serious player in UK politics. For Labour members supporting Leave there are probably a few reasons - undermine Corbyn on the one hand, but also establish support amongst the core of Labour voters around the North who really only vote Labour because they aren't the Tories, but otherwise hold none of Labour's social values - the kind of people UKIP have been appealing to. It's an area Labour critically need to deal with, and perhaps a subsection of the party think this would be good way to win them back.

Politics is predominantly a game for careerist sociopaths so a bunch of them conning the general public into potentially jeapordising their future is not the least bit surprising.

Yeah, I agree with all of that but it still sounds like people wanting to vote leave for a number of reasons none of them having anything to do with the actual question on hand. I was reading there about a town in Wales that has almost no immigration and is funded to a huge degree by the EU and they voted to leave. It just makes no sense to me how these people rationalise their decision?

Ian Duncan Smith is now saying that the promises they made were actually more like a list of possibilities. How people are still fooled by these guys is beyond me.

Neil3030

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

The thing I don't get though is why were these politicians and other people deliberately misleading the people? I genuinely don't get what the benefits are for them to leave the EU. Leave people have already admitted there probably won't be any change in immigration numbers, trade agreements aren't as clear cut as they implied they would be, Scotland are kicking off, the Northern Ireland issue is very messy, the Torys and Labour are imploding off the back of the result, not to mention the list of projects, local and nationwide, that will now have EU funding cut.

Leaving aside the reasons that the public voted to leave... I genuinely don't see why some people in positions of power were campaigning so strongly to leave.

Well for some politicians like Hannan, they have always branded themselves as eurosceptic and now was their time to shine. For Boris Johnson, this was a straight shoot at the Tory throne. For Farage, see Hannan, but with a primary motivation to establish himself as a leading populist figure, and UKIP as a serious player in UK politics. For Labour members supporting Leave there are probably a few reasons - undermine Corbyn on the one hand, but also establish support amongst the core of Labour voters around the North who really only vote Labour because they aren't the Tories, but otherwise hold none of Labour's social values - the kind of people UKIP have been appealing to. It's an area Labour critically need to deal with, and perhaps a subsection of the party think this would be good way to win them back.

Politics is predominantly a game for careerist sociopaths so a bunch of them conning the general public into potentially jeapordising their future is not the least bit surprising.

Neil3030

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

There were 2 Lisbon treaty referendums. We rejected the first one and passed the second one, which we had renegotiated some of the terms.

I know, I was responding to this:

Ireland had 2 goes at each of the Lisbon treaties IIRC

Unless "Lisbon treaty" is some Kleenex/Tayto/Hoover propriety eponym phenomenon to describe any international agreement that requires constitutional ratification.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

mfceiling wrote: »

And there in lies the problem for a lot of people. Have a referendum and you don't get the result...hold it again til you get what you want.

A lot of the brits were sick of the nonsense from Europe and wanted more controls over their own administration.

You looked at Germany opening up their arms to welcome refugees and then panic a few weeks later when huge numbers arrived and they wondered how they could care for them. In the Sunday Times a couple of weeks ago there was a story from an Iraqi refugee who was returning to Iraq because he felt the food in Germany was poor and he was disappointed with his accommodation. These stories just stoked the fire for the leave campaign.

What happens if they do hold the referendum again and they get the same result? Keep holding til they vote to remain in?

The two referendums aren't really comparable though. We were voting to agree to new things the EU wanted implemented. We didn't agree with all of them and we negotiated on it. The UK already did their negotiating and by all accounts the EU were pretty good to them about it, and they still voted to leave.

Britain happily refused to take 2000 child refugees a few months ago, it's not like they were actually being forced to take them, as far as I know? They can't stroll into the UK either as there's no land border with mainland Europe, they're stopped when they get as far as the French ports, which is also an issue that could be up for debate now they've left the EU. France say it will stay the same but who knows?

Immigration from Africa, Asia and various commonwealth countries won't be changed by them leaving the EU either. I'm sure there are plenty of people from EU countries creaming the welfare system in the UK but there's plenty of their own doing it too. I saw someone on the news last week make the point that a lot of these issues are they fault of successive governments and they should be held accountable for it, not the EU. Which is a fair point. If it's that easy to cream your welfare system do something about it.

A lot of it sounds like treating the symptoms rather than the cause, if that's the right expression.

I'd assume with so many seemingly intelligent people pushing for the Leave vote that there are some valid reasons for it, I just haven't heard any yet.

Podge_irl

The second Lisbon and nice referenda technically contained assurances or provisions to assuage the main (made up) concerns of the no voters.

There is nothing inherently wrong with them though admittedly the optics are poor.

Podge_irl

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Leaving aside the reasons that the public voted to leave... I genuinely don't see why some people in positions of power were campaigning so strongly to leave.

A desire for more power mostly I think. Johnson was purely an internal power play move. Farage was a naked appeal to populism.

And I'm sure some of it was honest, if in my opinion misguided, desire to be able to control things themselves.

mfceiling

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

There were 2 Lisbon treaty referendums. We rejected the first one and passed the second one, which we had renegotiated some of the terms.

And there in lies the problem for a lot of people. Have a referendum and you don't get the result...hold it again til you get what you want.

A lot of the brits were sick of the nonsense from Europe and wanted more controls over their own administration.

You looked at Germany opening up their arms to welcome refugees and then panic a few weeks later when huge numbers arrived and they wondered how they could care for them. In the Sunday Times a couple of weeks ago there was a story from an Iraqi refugee who was returning to Iraq because he felt the food in Germany was poor and he was disappointed with his accommodation. These stories just stoked the fire for the leave campaign.

What happens if they do hold the referendum again and they get the same result? Keep holding til they vote to remain in?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Neil3030 wrote: »

There was only one Lisbon treaty. We rejected Nice and Lisbon, once each.

There were 2 Lisbon treaty referendums. We rejected the first one and passed the second one, which we had renegotiated some of the terms.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Neil3030 wrote: »

If the will of the people is a certain way, you can have 100 referenda, it won't change the outcome. Have 100 referenda on introducing the death penalty, for example, and you'll see it beaten every time.

BUT, if the will of the people is unreliable, transient and easily manipulated, and if the issue is complex, I have no logical or moral opposition to several referenda being carried out.

If one study says a drug works you don't just dust your hands and assume it will always work, you carry out follow up confirmation studies to make sure.

The thing I don't get though is why were these politicians and other people deliberately misleading the people? I genuinely don't get what the benefits are for them to leave the EU. Leave people have already admitted there probably won't be any change in immigration numbers, trade agreements aren't as clear cut as they implied they would be, Scotland are kicking off, the Northern Ireland issue is very messy, the Torys and Labour are imploding off the back of the result, not to mention the list of projects, local and nationwide, that will now have EU funding cut.

Leaving aside the reasons that the public voted to leave... I genuinely don't see why some people in positions of power were campaigning so strongly to leave.

Neil3030

swiwi_ wrote: »

Don't think this forum should be preachy given Ireland had 2 goes at each of the Lisbon treaties IIRC. The moral high ground is barely more than a mound.

There was only one Lisbon treaty. We rejected Nice and Lisbon, once each.

Neil3030

If the will of the people is a certain way, you can have 100 referenda, it won't change the outcome. Have 100 referenda on introducing the death penalty, for example, and you'll see it beaten every time.

BUT, if the will of the people is unreliable, transient and easily manipulated, and if the issue is complex, I have no logical or moral opposition to several referenda being carried out.

If one study says a drug works you don't just dust your hands and assume it will always work, you carry out follow up confirmation studies to make sure.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

swiwi_ wrote: »

Don't think this forum should be preachy given Ireland had 2 goes at each of the Lisbon treaties IIRC. The moral high ground is barely more than a mound.

There was nothing wrong with having a second referendum there.

It was obvious from the first one that most of us didn't have a clue what we were voting on. People thought their kids were going to be conscripted into an EU army and all sorts of nonsense.

You can say if people are dumb enough to vote on something without actually finding out hard facts about the issue that they deserve what they get. Or, you could say that they deserve a second chance to make a more informed decision. If that second decision is the same as the first one then so be it.

swiwi_

Don't think this forum should be preachy given Ireland had 2 goes at each of the Lisbon treaties IIRC. The moral high ground is barely more than a mound.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Just reading about Cornwall this morning. Receive something like £60 million a year in EU funding, resounding Leave vote from them and the next morning they want reassurance that they'll still get the EU funding. A local politician said they were told by leave campaigners that they'd still get their EU funding even if they left and now they're not so sure.

Maybe they've never had a referendum in the UK so people aren't aware of how they work but there seems to have been some extremely misguided, at best, ridiculously stupid, at worst, decision making happening across the board.

DGRulz

Neil3030 wrote: »

Probably, but this petition thing seems to be doing well.

While a good idea, it's kind of useless. You or I could sign it right now without being in the UK. Someone said to me earlier that Scotland apparently has something like a veto so they can probably use that as a means to trigger a second Scottish referendum.

Synode

The way things are going, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they run the referendum again

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I don't think this referendum is legally binding though?

They don't have to activate the article 50 thing, although the EU seem to be implying they want it to happen right now.

Cameron stepping down puts Boris and Co in a real pickle too. The only questions that will be asked in the Tory leadership campaign now will be will you activate article 50 and when? They then have to be the one to try to negotiate a million things with the EU or be the ones to say it's just not going to work and not actually push the button.

Neil3030

Buer wrote: »

There would be an absolute meltdown and, I'm quite sure, massive legal challenges to any attempt to hold another referendum.

Probably, but this petition thing seems to be doing well.

Buer

Neil3030 wrote: »

Maybe the actions of the people don't necessarily reflect the will of the people. If the majority of the UK wants to leave the EU, they could hold the referendum 100 times and it wouldn't make a difference. But if an initial wakeup call is needed for the country to actually decide that, on the whole, they don't want to leave, I think it's fair enough to get another chance to say so.

There would be an absolute meltdown and, I'm quite sure, massive legal challenges to any attempt to hold another referendum.

Neil3030

Synode wrote: »

Agreed. Not sure what the lesson there is though. Democracy shouldn't be left to the people?

Maybe the actions of the people don't necessarily reflect the will of the people. If the majority of the UK wants to leave the EU, they could hold the referendum 100 times and it wouldn't make a difference. But if an initial wakeup call is needed for the country to actually decide that, on the whole, they don't want to leave, I think it's fair enough to get another chance to say so.

Swan Curry

swiwi_ wrote: »

With each iteration of the off-topic thread, I give a little thanks to Ugo Monye Spacecraft Experience for suggesting the thread. Keep well big man.

as we speak he's out there somewhere having meltdowns about zebo, may the greatest name in the history of the rugby forum live on in our hearts

Synode

Agreed. Not sure what the lesson there is though. Democracy shouldn't be left to the people?

awec

Synode wrote: »

I reckon if they ran the referendum again next week, remain would win

I reckon if they had ran another vote at 11am Friday morning remain would have won.

Synode

I reckon if they ran the referendum again next week, remain would win

Neil3030

Anyone UK based that has broadband, Sky and BT Sports? What's the cheapest way to do it? No interest in a landline phone or any movie packages etc.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Driving from Donegal to Dublin today and while passing through Northern Ireland I realised that Ulster now exists in the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, the UK, and both in and out of the EU.

That's a future pub quiz tie breaker.

Felix Jones is God

swiwi_ wrote: »

With each iteration of the off-topic thread, I give a little thanks to Ugo Monye Spacecraft Experience for suggesting the thread. Keep well big man.

I quite like my name changes, but that fecker has me beaten hands down for the nearest handle ever

swiwi_

With each iteration of the off-topic thread, I give a little thanks to Ugo Monye Spacecraft Experience for suggesting the thread. Keep well big man.

wp_rathead

I can't even do that in FIFA