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Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

Lenton Lane

In today's Herald, can someone post up a link?

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GM228

lxflyer wrote: »

I'd find that slightly difficult to believe - there's no reason certainly off-peak for all three routes not to use the turnback at GCD.

Only going by what I'm told, I suppose like any proposal that's subject to change so until we see the final draft we shall have to wait and see.

Vic_08

lxflyer wrote: »

I'd find that slightly difficult to believe - there's no reason certainly off-peak for all three routes not to use the turnback at GCD.

It will all depend on how confident they are that the timetable can be consistently adhered to.

With 10 min DART there will be 6 slots/hour in between that could reasonably be used. The question is what recovery time is going to be required; a 7-8 min turnaround at most would be required to allow 6 reversals per hour. With the same driver on an 8 car it will take 3-4 mins minimum so 4 minutes leeway at most before a delay starts to cascade to following services.

Next step would be to fit in after a second DART so add 10 minutes recovery to that and GCD has 3 slots per hour with more chance to recover a late running inbound service.

LXFlyer

Vic_08 wrote: »

It will all depend on how confident they are that the timetable can be consistently adhered to.

With 10 min DART there will be 6 slots/hour in between that could reasonably be used. The question is what recovery time is going to be required; a 7-8 min turnaround at most would be required to allow 6 reversals per hour. With the same driver on an 8 car it will take 3-4 mins minimum so 4 minutes leeway at most before a delay starts to cascade to following services.

Next step would be to fit in after a second DART so add 10 minutes recovery to that and GCD has 3 slots per hour with more chance to recover a late running inbound service.

The city centre resignalling will allow for more than 12 trains an hour - if that's all it delivered it would be fairly pathetic.

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

The city centre resignalling will allow for more than 12 trains an hour - if that's all it delivered it would be fairly pathetic.

I thought it allowed 20 trains per hour - that is one every 3 minutes.

The project will provide Iarnród Éireann with the ability to operate 20 trains in both directions through the Howth Junction to Grand Canal Dock line, which caters for Howth DARTs, Malahide DARTs, Northern Commuter trains, Belfast Enterprise services, Sligo Intercity and Maynooth commuter services, as well as other services in the Connolly to Grand Canal Dock area. Signalling on train lines regulate the safe movement of trains, and currently the system’s capacity stands at 12 trains per hour each way.

The Project has also taken in to consideration the need to modernise signalling equipment. Computer based interlocking will be used to replace the existing Relay based signalling systems in Howth/Howth Junction/Killester /Connolly and Pearse.

http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/city-centre-resignalling

Vic_08

lxflyer wrote: »

The city centre resignalling will allow for more than 12 trains an hour - if that's all it delivered it would be fairly pathetic.

For peak running yes with the extra trains over the standard pattern mostly slotting in from stabling points. Some running through from Bray and Dun Laoghaire, some from Boston sidings plus Sligo and Belfasts from Connolly.

The maximum throughput of the link line and the number that can be turned around consistently in the core area are different considerations. The regular Dart+commuter off-peak will not need to squeeze the max capacity but should be as robust as possible with some of the intermediate slots used for the irregular services (Rosslare, Sligo, Belfast) and peak extras pre-positioned far enough in advance to ensure they are ready to slot in on time every time.

savagethegoat

it all sounds very interesting. Where will be the best place to go to witness the peak hour rush?

flyingsnail

savagethegoat wrote: »

it all sounds very interesting. Where will be the best place to go to witness the peak hour rush?

I would think the Pearse end of grand canal up platform. That should give you a good view of the Boston sidings, turn backs at grand canal, up and down dart + rosslare.

guylikeme

Apologies if this q has been done to death but...

Is there an opening date yet for this? Would love to be able get the train Athlone-GCD direct for the Ireland matches, bypassing Luas

LXFlyer

guylikeme wrote: »

Apologies if this q has been done to death but...

Is there an opening date yet for this? Would love to be able get the train Athlone-GCD direct for the Ireland matches, bypassing Luas

It has been done to death.

No there isn't a date yet - probably October/November.

You won't be able to get a train from Athlone to GCD - it would require multiple changes. Galway trains generally run non-stop between Portarlington and Heuston, which would mean changing onto a Portlaoise-Heuston stopper at Portarlington and again at Newbridge or stations closer to Dublin onto a train for GCD and there's no guarantee of a direct connection - I'd expect the Portlaoise and GCD trains to be half an hour apart to provide two trains an hour from commuter stations.

Also, GCD will still probably close around matches.

This service is designed as a commuter service - not really for Intercity passengers.

[Deleted User]

lxflyer wrote: »

It has been done to death.

No there isn't a date yet - probably October/November.

You won't be able to get a train from Athlone to GCD - it would require multiple changes. Galway trains generally run non-stop between Portarlington and Heuston, which would mean changing onto a Portlaoise-Heuston stopper at Portarlington and again at Newbridge or stations closer to Dublin onto a train for GCD and there's no guarantee of a direct connection - I'd expect the Portlaoise and GCD trains to be half an hour apart to provide two trains an hour from commuter stations.

Also, GCD will still probably close around matches.

This service is designed as a commuter service - not really for Intercity passengers.

I'm guessing that the commuter service will go out as far as hazelhatch and the inter city trains will do one stop between hazelhatch & park west to allow commuters to change trains.

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm guessing that the commuter service will go out as far as hazelhatch and the inter city trains will do one stop between hazelhatch & park west to allow commuters to change trains.

I would expect GCD trains to go to Newbridge where there is a turnback platform, with maybe peak time extensions to/from Portlaoise.

There is already an hourly stopping service from Heuston to Portlaoise that feeds into the Intercity services at Kildare, Portarlington and Portlaoise.

I certainly do not expect additional stops to be be added to Intercity trains, adding journey time unnecessarily. That timetable pattern is well established now.

These GCD services are extra commuter services - not feeder trains for Intercity services.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

I certainly do not expect additional stops to be be added to Intercity trains, adding journey time unnecessarily. That timetable pattern is well established now.

These GCD services are extra commuter services - not feeder trains for Intercity services.

Why not. Not everyone wants to go to Heuston. They're called connections, not feeders.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Why not. Not everyone wants to go to Heuston. They're called connections, not feeders.

It's not as simple as that.

There's an hourly path for trains to Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford.

Those trains generally don't have a first stop until Portlaoise, Portarlington, Kildare or Newbridge respectively.

The Heuston-Portlaoise stopper facilitates connections from intermediate stations into those Intercity trains, and means those Intercity trains can have those extended non-stop sections.

Now given that the off-peak service pattern for the stations between Parkwest and (likely) Newbridge is going to be two trains per hour, one to Heuston and one to GCD, should they run almost one after another, facilitating a small number of connections, or should they run at equal intervals offering a balanced service from the intermediate stations to Dublin to a much greater number of passengers?

While offering connections is laudable, it's not always going to be feasible.

The notion that extra stops should be added to long distance Intercity services is a non-starter. The aim is to speed them up, not slow them down further.

ClovenHoof

lxflyer wrote: »

I certainly do not expect additional stops to be be added to Intercity trains, adding journey time unnecessarily. That timetable pattern is well established now.

These GCD services are extra commuter services - not feeder trains for Intercity services.

I have never seen the CIE mentality towards public transport so perfectly summed up in two small paragraphs!

LXFlyer

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I have never seen the CIE mentality towards public transport so perfectly summed up in two small paragraphs!

If you read the post directly above yours you will see exactly why I said what I said in very simple terms.

There's no need to be insulting about it.

It's all well and good saying x should connect into y, but there is often a bigger picture.

Adding extra stops to Intercity services is not the answer - it will just slow them down even more.

So perhaps less of the carping comments and actually think through the practical details of what the requirements would be and their impact on existing services.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

The notion that extra stops should be added to long distance Intercity services is a non-starter. The aim is to speed them up, not slow them down further.

Which helps some customers get to where they don't want to go even faster, often passing through where they do want to go to at high speed. Ah but shur it's for the greater good.

Vic_08

n97 mini wrote: »

Which helps some customers get to where they don't want to go even faster, often passing through where they do want to go to at high speed. Ah but shur it's for the greater good.

If I searched through your posting history do you think I would find complaints about the slow speed of Irish Rail Inter-city services? I think I would.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

Which helps some customers get to where they don't want to go even faster, often passing through where they do want to go to at high speed. Ah but shur it's for the greater good.

maybe those who are traveling from outer stations don't wish for their journeys to be a lot longer, when people can get off a bit earlier to make their connection? if they're was no way of making a connection at all then you would absolutely have a point. i agree what does exist isn't ideal but slowing down trains isn't ideal either.

GM228

From a friend in IE, part in bold is interesting.

Paths for new services (and some existing services diverted to GCD have also been identified) have been finalised and awaiting approval from the NTA, expected start date early November TBC.

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

From a friend in IE, part in bold is interesting.

indeed very interesting. the new services will probably be extra portlaoises?

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

From a friend in IE, part in bold is interesting.

I always said that existing services would be altered in some way as I only expect a moderate increase in numbers.

I think it may play out like:
* - Portlaoise to Heuston/GCD alternating every hour and it would be better for GCD to meet IC wave of services as many commuters would still retain existing hourly Heuston from west Newbridge. Traffic east is very light off peak.
* - Prehaps a service to GCD from a closer point to Dublin during the hours a portlaoise connection does not operate if the hourly service to GCD is certain to happen.
* - Peak Portlaoise maintained and services such as 17.55 to Newbridge diverted to GCD.

Scheduling two peak hourly GCD and Portlaoise west of Hazelhatch with a decent schedule and not impacting IC traffic will be a big task so I think you could well see some terminating of service there.

I just hope they produce a workable timetable and not some of the mess of recent times whatever way to operate GCD.

[Deleted User]

lxflyer wrote: »

I would expect GCD trains to go to Newbridge where there is a turnback platform, with maybe peak time extensions to/from Portlaoise.

There is already an hourly stopping service from Heuston to Portlaoise that feeds into the Intercity services at Kildare, Portarlington and Portlaoise.

I certainly do not expect additional stops to be be added to Intercity trains, adding journey time unnecessarily. That timetable pattern is well established now.

These GCD services are extra commuter services - not feeder trains for Intercity services.

That's a pity because there is a large number of passengers who commute from places like Athlone & Tullamore each day and by allowing these passengers to change to a commuter train that goes to GCD, they'll release a lot of capacity on the Luas & buses that travel via the city.

n97 mini

Vic_08 wrote: »

If I searched through your posting history do you think I would find complaints about the slow speed of Irish Rail Inter-city services? I think I would.

You probably wouldn't, but you would find several complaints about lack of connections.

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a pity because there is a large number of passengers who commute from places like Athlone & Tullamore each day and by allowing these passengers to change to a commuter train that goes to GCD, they'll release a lot of capacity on the Luas & buses that travel via the city.

Hold on - the post I replied to was talking about people going to matches etc which would clearly be off peak. It made no mention of peak time commuter traffic.

My own feeling on what will develop is:

Peak Periods:
A mix of Portlaoise & Newbridge - GCD trains

These would have connections from the likes of Carlow or Athlone at intermediate stations because they are additional stops en route.

Off-peak:
An hourly Newbridge - GCD service

I'd expect this to be at the opposite end of the hour to the existing Heuston-Portlaoise stopping service in order to provide a half-hourly service to/from Dublin (Heuston & GCD) and the stations between Newbridge and Parkwest.

It's that train which by the nature of the off-peak stopping pattern that's likely to have fewer connections as it will be a half hour apart from the other stopper which currently does facilitate faster non-stop Intercity services which result in more competitive end to end journey times.

Some people here seem to think it's dead easy to path trains and connections. As someone who has over the years simulated it, I can assure you that it is anything but, particularly when you add in the extra issue of some of those trains having to then go onto single track lines with passing loops.

While one person may want connections, more people may want a fast direct train. Given the competition from Intercity coach operators that creates a real problem. Adding extra stops to Intercity services is not the answer I'm afraid.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

While one person may want connections, more people may want a fast direct train. Given the competition from Intercity coach operators that creates a real problem. Adding extra stops to Intercity services is not the answer I'm afraid.

By not making connections, a portion of customers have to face longer journey times than necessary. Some will put up with this as they have no choice, but others will simply opt not to use the train. On the other hand IE would very probably not lose a single customer by adding one stop to allow connections -- in fact they might win some.

ArmaniJeanss

Platform 10 would surely solve some of the issues - it would mean a switch was possible at Hueston albeit at off peak there may not be a nicely timed connection.

Apropos of nothing, I was in the likes of Gare Du Nord, Bastille and (the monster) Chatelet Les Halle stations earlier in the month and having to walk 1000 or 1200 metres to make a connection between two lines is perfectly acceptable and normal there.

savagethegoat

n97 mini wrote: »

By not making connections, a portion of customers have to face longer journey times than necessary. Some will put up with this as they have no choice, but others will simply opt not to use the train. On the other hand IE would very probably not lose a single customer by adding one stop to allow connections -- in fact they might win some.

Inter City trains need less stops if anything.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

By not making connections, a portion of customers have to face longer journey times than necessary. Some will put up with this as they have no choice, but others will simply opt not to use the train. On the other hand IE would very probably not lose a single customer by adding one stop to allow connections -- in fact they might win some.

but they have stops for connections to dart and suburban. portlaoise from cork/tralee/limerick, portarlington from galway/mayo, kildare from waterford, maynooth from sligo/longford, and greystones/bray/dunlaoghre/pearse/tara off rosslare services. the problem is connections into the gcd services. however to slow down intercity trains further the question has to be asked as to how many would make the connection from those services to the gcd services. it would be ridiculous to slow down intercity trains further then what they are currently just for a very small amount of people.

savagethegoat wrote: »

Inter City trains need less stops if anything.

exactly.

n97 mini

savagethegoat wrote: »

Inter City trains need less stops if anything.

I think it's been broadly accepted that one of the main problems with public transport in Dublin is the phenomenon known as An Lár. It is absolutely daft that commuters have to go into the city centre to make a connection in general, but doubly daft, inconvenient and a waste of time when that connection leads them back out the line they just came in on. One distant station should be designated an interchange point, served by all trains.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

I think it's been broadly accepted that one of the main problems with public transport in Dublin is the phenomenon known as An Lár. It is absolutely daft that commuters have to go into the city centre to make a connection in general, but doubly daft, inconvenient and a waste of time when that connection leads them back out the line they just came in on. One distant station should be designated an interchange point, served by all trains.

Well can I ask have you tried to simulate the entire Heuston operation and come up with schedules that will work, bearing in mind the sets available and the need to service them.

I have - and that's what I'm basing my post above on.

Go and try and do that and come back here then and tell me how you will make it all work.