dr.fuzzenstein wrote: » You cannot make rules to 100% reflect real life. The rules are not the B all and end all in life (imagine a German telling that to an Irish person). "the rules apply 100% without any personal judgement by the person enforcing them" is not something that happens in real life. The person enforcing the rules has to have some leeway in how to interpret and enforce them. Example would be a Gard who sees you doing something you shouldn't, but lets you off with a warning. Otherwise we would be living in North Korea.
Of course you could be right and everyone will immediately stop doing all and any work and just smoke joints and play PlayStation all day. But I don't believe that.
The dole system here is idiotic and belongs into the 19th century. It forces you to stay on the dole, because if you have any income, you will lose out or be struck off. So in fact the dole system is responsible for nixers and the black market, because it only has ONE thing in mind, that you pick up a regular job
Under BI people won't have to worry about declaring income, so in fact this would reduce nixers!
It is a good idea in a changing world. Doing your 9-5 job, then being laid off and being paid unemployment benefit until you get your next 9-5 job just doesn't cover it anymore, any more than a 99% catholic school system covers Ireland's current demographic. It doesn't work in a system where employers have eroded all worker's rights by short-term contracts that are being constantly rolled over, agency work, seasonal work, part-time work, etc... I keep saying it, but Ireland has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century, nevermind the 21st.
K-9 wrote: » The 2 gaping holes for me are no childcare tax credits and not having a graduated system like some other countries have, say 70% of your last wage for 6 months and then reduce it.
dr.fuzzenstein wrote: » I don't know where you get the idea from that if we bring in BI, everyone would suddenly do nixers.
I'm sure undeclared income is not legal, SW or BI.
dr.fuzzenstein wrote: » You cannot make rules to 100% reflect real life. The rules are not the B all and end all in life (imagine a German telling that to an Irish person). "the rules apply 100% without any personal judgement by the person enforcing them" is not something that happens in real life. The person enforcing the rules has to have some leeway in how to interpret and enforce them. Example would be a Gard who sees you doing something you shouldn't, but lets you off with a warning. Otherwise we would be living in North Korea. You see, that is your interpretation of what would happen with BI. It's not a fact, it's an opinion. If pilot schemes in countries with a lot more forward thinking, guts and imagination than Ireland work out, then it might be implemented here. Of course you could be right and everyone will immediately stop doing all and any work and just smoke joints and play PlayStation all day. But I don't believe that. The dole system here is idiotic and belongs into the 19th century. It forces you to stay on the dole, because if you have any income, you will lose out or be struck off. So in fact the dole system is responsible for nixers and the black market, because it only has ONE thing in mind, that you pick up a regular job. But if you decide you want something else, it is near impossible to do it by the book. Under BI people won't have to worry about declaring income, so in fact this would reduce nixers! Quite an oversight. So you can have your BI (maybe up to a certain threshold, we just don't know yet) and you don't have to worry about the Filth booting your door down and you being carted off to prison. It is a good idea in a changing world. Doing your 9-5 job, then being laid off and being paid unemployment benefit until you get your next 9-5 job just doesn't cover it anymore, any more than a 99% catholic school system covers Ireland's current demographic. It doesn't work in a system where employers have eroded all worker's rights by short-term contracts that are being constantly rolled over, agency work, seasonal work, part-time work, etc... I keep saying it, but Ireland has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century, nevermind the 21st.
Bob24 wrote: » I think the idea of basic income is flawed at the core. Wealth can only be determined comparatively to what other people have. So I tend to think that if everyone has that garanteed income, it will end up being worth nothing. To oversimplify and explain what I mean in a sentence: rents and basic need products would gradually increase in price to take into account the fact that everyone has additional purchasing power due to that basic income, to the point were surviving just on that income won't be possible anymore.
Suryavarman wrote: » Everyone wouldn't have additional purchasing power. There wouldn't be any additional income, existing income would just be transferred around. AS such there's no reason to think there would be any additional inflation.
Bob24 wrote: » My wording "everyone would have additional power" was poor, I should have said everyone has the same minimum guaranteed purchasing power. While no new wealth would be created in the country, the fact that minimum income is given could just increase the price of base items in the country and render it useless. Let me take the example of housing in Dublin: currently rental prices are already quite high and upwards pressure is only limited by the fact that people's incomes are limiting how much they can pay. If tomorrow you were to provide everyone with a rent allowance 100 euros per month to lower the burden (basically a guaranteed universal income restricted to housing purposes), would it not just increase the average rent by 100 euros and make the allowance useless for everyone except landlords?
Suryavarman wrote: » Everyone wouldn't have additional purchasing power.
BoJack Horseman wrote: » Except those on social welfare. If you took the social welfare budget - minus pensions & added the cost of tax credits & then distributed this amongst all working age adults, those on s/w come out worse than the status quo. Especially those with school age children.
Niall Keane wrote: » What will we do in the not so distant decades ahead when technology replaces humans as cheaper and more reliable units of labour?
Suryavarman wrote: » Nothing. It isn't going to happen.
ancapailldorcha wrote: » I wouldn't be so sure of this. Here is a good video by CGP Grey on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU While I would say that the current generation of skilled workers should be ok, this is something that will soon become an issue. Ideally, population growth would begin to plateau but that shows little signs of happening given the economic states of Africa and the Middle East.
Godge wrote: » Have you done those calculations? Do you propose eliminating all tax credits?
KomradeBishop wrote: » Am I able to post here? I'm technically not banned, as the mods began a clean slate when this forum was created - but they left this 'clean slate' open to fuzzy/arbitrary interpretation, so I don't know if I can actually post. My personal view of the BI, is that it is a trap, which can be used to consolidate and then destroy the welfare system - it can be transformed from a universal income, into a business subsidy, by slashing wages over time by the same amount as the BI. I've got much more elaborate/detailed views on that, but will see where forum bans stand, as I don't know if I can contribute more.
Suryavarman wrote: » ancapailldorcha wrote: » I wouldn't be so sure of this. Here is a good video by CGP Grey on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU While I would say that the current generation of skilled workers should be ok, this is something that will soon become an issue. Ideally, population growth would begin to plateau but that shows little signs of happening given the economic states of Africa and the Middle East. Automation has never had anything other than a short run impact on employment. There's no particular reason that will change anytime soon. This post from /r/Badeconomics gives a better overview of the topic than I ever could.
But a guaranteed income could have less welcome consequences. In every society there is a very broad spectrum of people, from those who are workaholics to those who are ardent leisure lovers. A basic income could make more people who prefer leisure over work do more of the former and less of the latter.
While policy experimentation is a good thing, and something we could do more of in Ireland, taking a leap as enormous as the guaranteed basic income would be better done after seeing how it works in other countries first. In this instance, there is a 'late mover' advantage to be had by learning from the mistakes of others, rather than being in the vanguard.
