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"Women needs to face facts about the link between rape and drinking"

Lollipop95

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/niamh-horan-women-need-to-face-facts-about-the-link-between-rape-and-drinking-34794279.html

What do people make of this? Having read the article in full, I actually agree with SOME of the points she makes but I find the RSA comparison absurd. Car accidents ARE accidents, rape is anything BUT. I'm also quite disappointed that Niamh didn't focus on more of the onus being on the man not to rape. But it seems like she's trying to get across in the article that that side has already been discussed and she wants to open up another part of the debate

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Jayop

meeeeh wrote: »

That's just not true. In quite a few cases the defence is that rapist was drunk and made stupid decision or mistake. People who might behave themselves otherwise often become violent and get into the fights or commit other assaults when drunk. So telling them not to drink might be a better option.

That should never ever be allowed to be a defense for crime, be it rape, assault, breaking into a car whatever. I detest the fact that someone being drunk is used as an extenuating circumstance in Ireland. It simply should never ever be.

Of course it would be great if we could just tell rapists (not all men) not to rape. Wouldn't it be grand if it was that simple. Unfortunately some people are scum who should be locked up for life who will rape. That's not going to change any time soon with the best will in the world so taking precautions to guard yourself against these scumbags is good advice.

LexieOnRale wrote: »

It does not matter if a woman is passed out on the street, wearing absolutely nothing, there is NO DEFENCE at all for raping her. She is not responsible for anyone else's actions. When she drinks, it doesn't mean she's fair game to be raped. When she dresses provocatively she is not inviting men to rape her.

If a man has sex with a woman without her consent then he is 100% a rapist and should be treated as such. If at any time after consenting she tells him to stop and he doesn't, he is a rapist.

I agree 100%. Never said I didn't. Any man who commits rape be it drunk, sober, with someone asleep or dragged behind a bush should face life in prison.

bubblypop wrote: »

So being drunk increases the risk of being raped?? The risk of being drunk is increased by men somehow thinking OK to rape a female who is out of her mind drunk.
It totally takes away blame from the rapist.
Basically your point is, don't get drunk because men just can't help themselves raping girls that can't defend themselves.
It doesn't matter how drunk someone is, its never their fault that they were raped . Never

Not getting hammered is just good advice. Health wise, mental health wise etc

To be fair I didn't make that point at all. I specifically said " It doesn't for a second blame the victim and it doesn't for a second excuse the rapist. It doesn't justify anything."

Regardless of the condition of the victim, the rapist is 100% to blame.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I have no idea how this thread has gone from good advice of looking after yourself in public to ... Your blaming the victim. I have another bit of good advice Don't leave your drink unattended in a bar or club either.

A few examples above where you explicitly say one thing and someone comes along, quotes the post and accuses you of saying the opposite. I understand how this topic boils blood but reasoned discussion shouldn't be discouraged or taken over with wild accusations.

darkpagandeath

bubblypop wrote: »

I think the gardai will sympathize with you, it's not your fault some scumbag decides to steal your stuff. Victim is in no way to blame & quite entitled to have the door open

There is that word..... You maybe but still did not stop your stuff getting stolen did it. If it's was me I would feel very foolish and mad that I let it happen.

[Deleted User]

It's interesting NH wrote

We have a long way to go when it comes to adequate sentencing; there is no doubt she is the victim, and rape — under any circumstance — is inexcusable. But the role of alcohol was unmentionable.

when the victim addressed it herself, and quite eloquently too:

ou said, Being drunk I just couldn’t make the best decisions and neither could she.

Alcohol is not an excuse. Is it a factor? Yes. But alcohol was not the one who stripped me, fingered me, had my head dragging against the ground, with me almost fully naked. Having too much to drink was an amateur mistake that I admit to, but it is not criminal. Everyone in this room has had a night where they have regretted drinking too much, or knows someone close to them who has had a night where they have regretted drinking too much. Regretting drinking is not the same as regretting sexual assault. We were both drunk, the difference is I did not take off your pants and underwear, touch you inappropriately, and run away. That’s the difference.

You said, you are in the process of establishing a program for high school and college students in which you speak about your experience to “speak out against the college campus drinking culture and the sexual promiscuity that goes along with that.”

Campus drinking culture. That’s what we’re speaking out against? You think that’s what I’ve spent the past year fighting for? Not awareness about campus sexual assault, or rape, or learning to recognize consent. Campus drinking culture. Down with Jack Daniels. Down with Skyy Vodka. If you want talk to people about drinking go to an AA meeting. You realize, having a drinking problem is different than drinking and then forcefully trying to have sex with someone? Show men how to respect women, not how to drink less.

Drinking culture and the sexual promiscuity that goes along with that. Goes along with that, like a side effect, like fries on the side of your order. Where does promiscuity even come into play? I don’t see headlines that read, Brock Turner, Guilty of drinking too much and the sexual promiscuity that goes along with that. Campus Sexual Assault. There’s your first powerpoint slide. Rest assured, if you fail to fix the topic of your talk, I will follow you to every school you go to and give a follow up presentation.

One eyed Jack

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

In practice, there are hundreds of complicating factors, such as proving lack of consent. But that's common to every non-violent rape, where there's alcohol or not.

I'm saying that once sexual intercourse and lack of consent (due to intoxication) is proven, you're effectively dealing with a rape

If a man turns around and says "She didn't say no, and I was to drunk to know she was too drunk to consent) he has no defence.

He is expected to never get too drunk in case he won't be able to see that another person is too drunk.
A woman can knowingly go out and get as drunk as she wishes, and (quite rightly) will not be held liable to any extent in law.

We're not talking about violence here. We're talking about men effectively having to assume responsibility for two drunk people, himself and 'his woman'. I actually find that a bit paternalistic.

I'm not sure what the better solution is, maybe this is the best of a bad lot. I'm just pointing out an anomalous situation, contrary to what another poster suggested.

The accused is innocent until proven guilty for starters, and even then they have the defence of reasonable belief, and even then, even if it is determined consent was absent, that still doesn't mean the defendant is automatically found guilty of the charges against them.

[Deleted User]

darkpagandeath wrote: »

There is that word..... You maybe but still did not stop your stuff getting stolen did it. If it's was me I would feel very foolish and mad that I let it happen.

I wouldn't feel foolish at all for having a door open in my own home.
I would feel anger towards the scrote that walked in and stole my stuff.
I wouldn't feel to blame in anyway at all, because, well I'm not!
It's his fault.

darkpagandeath

bubblypop wrote: »

I wouldn't feel foolish at all for having a door open in my own home.
I would feel anger towards the scrote that walked in and stole my stuff.
I wouldn't feel to blame in anyway at all, because, well I'm not!
It's his fault.

You insurance will not pay out for a start they will blame you for not securing the premises. The Garda may well have sympathy but will also remind you to lock your doors and windows. And also inform you most such crimes are of opportunity and the open door gave them that opportunity.

One eyed Jack

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You insurance will not pay out for a start they will blame you for not securing the premises. The Garda may well have sympathy but will also remind you to lock your doors and windows. And also inform you most such crimes are of opportunity and the open door gave them that opportunity.

Is there anything you can think of that someone should do so they aren't giving people the opportunity to rape them?

Because I guarantee you, anything you come up with, will have been thought of already, even by rapists themselves, because it's not as though they wouldn't be watching television and reading newspapers and doing everything they can think of to prevent themselves from being caught.

[Deleted User]

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You insurance will not pay out for a start they will blame you for not securing the premises. The Garda may well have sympathy but will also remind you to lock your doors and windows. And also inform you most such crimes are of opportunity and the open door gave them that opportunity.

My insurance will pay out, if I'm in the house & my door or window is open, some scrote gets in the window or door, I an assure you I will get insurance money.
Would be different if you went away & left the doors open

[Deleted User]

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The accused is innocent until proven guilty for starters, and even then they have the defence of reasonable belief, and even then...

That applies to all rape prosecutions, where alcohol is involved or not.

Of course the prosecution is not on an equal footing to the defence. That is ecaxtly as it should be, and applies across the board.

I am talking about the circumstances in which both parties are very intoxicated, and where there was no obvious indication on behalf of a woman that she was not consenting; she was too drunk to consent.

I find it hypocritical, although perhaps it is a necessary unfairness, that regard is given to a woman being too drunk to consent, but no regard can be given, in law, by way of a defence, that a man was too drunk to recognize that when she lay back in a certain position, she was not capable of consent.

There is an unsettling hypocrisy there, whether it is necessary or not.

I'm just saying it's complex, in response to a poster who said that women get all the blame, and men get none.

It's interesting that you mention reasonable defence, because intoxication will diminish the availability of that defence for a male. The more drunk he is, the less likely is his belief likely to be reasonable. The more drunk a woman gets, the stronger the grounds for a prosecution.

Can we really put the 'alcohol test' to such contradictory purposes? Is it fair to say that alcohol renders one drunken party helpless, but it galvanizes the blame on the other drunken party?

darkpagandeath

bubblypop wrote: »

My insurance will pay out, if I'm in the house & my door or window is open, some scrote gets in the window or door, I an assure you I will get insurance money.
Would be different if you went away & left the doors open

I'm sure you can provide a link to any policy that states that.

[Deleted User]

I like to go hill walking.
I like to go alone, mostly listening to something on headphones.

If something were to happen to me on one of these walks, if I were to get raped or murdered, how many people would say I was somehow to blame?
I bet a lot on this thread.
That's what's wrong with society ? It appears like the victims have all done something wrong, that's why the poor helpless rapist/murderer couldn't help himself.

[Deleted User]

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm sure you can provide a link to any policy that states that.

I have seen it happen.
Many many times

darkpagandeath

bubblypop wrote: »

I have seen it happen.
Many many times

You will forgive me if I don't just take your word for it yes ? I know of people that stopped at lights with the car window open and had stuff robed no pay out.

Jayop

bubblypop wrote: »

I like to go hill walking.
I like to go alone, mostly listening to something on headphones.

If something were to happen to me on one of these walks, if I were to get raped or murdered, how many people would say I was somehow to blame?
I bet a lot on this thread.
That's what's wrong with society ? It appears like the victims have all done something wrong, that's why the poor helpless rapist/murderer couldn't help himself.

That's complete rubbish TBF. You've already accused me of victim blaming on this thread and now you're accusing "a lot". Did you bother to read my reply to your last accusation in the last page?

Again, for clarification, and I think everyone on this thread agrees, that regardless of the circumstances, the victim holds 0% of the blame or responsibility. The blame is entirely that of the rapist.

Your analogy doesn't even really make sense because it's in no way comparable.

scream

bubblypop wrote: »

I think the gardai will sympathize with you, it's not your fault some scumbag decides to steal your stuff. Victim is in no way to blame & quite entitled to have the door open

They might sympathise with you but they'll still think you're an idiot.

scream

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Sure, we'll just put all the onus on women to "protect themselves" from being raped. We'll never talk about what causes some men to think they are entitled to a persons body if they dress or behave a certain way, and even if they don't. Nope, that's not the real issue at all.

Why can't we do both? What is wrong with encouraging women to protect themselves?

Jayop

scream wrote: »

Why can't we do both? What is wrong with encouraging women to protect themselves?

There should be three threads of conversation on this subject imo. I'll list them in order of importance.

1) The level of punishment for a rapist is laughable. Life in prison, the same as a murder sentence. Crimes against the person are dealt with far to leniently in Ireland. Also, make alchohol/drugs consumption banned from being used as an extenuating circumstance. This will protect future victims and will also put off quite a few first time victims.

2) Prevention in the first place. I feel that point 1 is the most important thing as these guys are massive wimps who do this for power. Putting the fear of a long prison sentence in front of them may well prevent them from doing it. Any other ideas that can help like consent classes are no harm too.

3) Advise for potential victims on how to protect themselves, both self defense and situation avoidance. This one is unpalatable for some, but in conjunction with the others it just makes good sense.

[Deleted User]

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You will forgive me if I don't just take your word for it yes ? I know of people that stopped at lights with the car window open and had stuff robed no pay out.

Completely different scenarios & insurances.

scream

Jayop wrote: »

There should be three threads of conversation on this subject imo. I'll list them in order of importance.

1) The level of punishment for a rapist is laughable. Life in prison, the same as a murder sentence. Crimes against the person are dealt with far to leniently in Ireland. Also, make alchohol/drugs consumption banned from being used as an extenuating circumstance. This will protect future victims and will also put off quite a few first time victims.

2) Prevention in the first place. I feel that point 1 is the most important thing as these guys are massive wimps who do this for power. Putting the fear of a long prison sentence in front of them may well prevent them from doing it. Any other ideas that can help like consent classes are no harm too.

3) Advise for potential victims on how to protect themselves, both self defense and situation avoidance. This one is unpalatable for some, but in conjunction with the others it just makes good sense.

I think that should be the case for all criminal offences. It's disgraceful that someone should be able to have their drunken or drugged up behaviour used as a mitigating factor.

darkpagandeath

bubblypop wrote: »

Completely different scenarios & insurances.

Admit ones mistake and move on. Or present policy's that state this.

[Deleted User]

Title of this thread

Women need to face facts about the link between drinking and rape.

Thats what this thread is about.
There is no link between rape & drinking. Rape occurs everyday.
To sober people, by sober people etc etc
To suggest to women that they are somehow causing their own rapes by being drunk is disgraceful.

One eyed Jack

scream wrote: »

Why can't we do both? What is wrong with encouraging women to protect themselves?

What do you say to the person who took all your advice and "encouragement", and they are still raped?

What advice would you give to men to protect themselves from being raped?

darkpagandeath

bubblypop wrote: »

Title of this thread

Women need to face facts about the link between drinking and rape.

Thats what this thread is about.
There is no link between rape & drinking. Rape occurs everyday.
To sober people, by sober people etc etc
To suggest to women that they are somehow causing their own rapes by being drunk is disgraceful.

Don't leave your drink untended good or bad advice ? Don't get to messy may lead you into a situation that could have been prevented good or bad advice ?

[Deleted User]

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Admit ones mistake and move on. Or present policy's that state this.

I'm nearly 20 years in a job dealing with victims of crimes.
I have seen and stamped many insurance forms & spoke with many insurance companies.
Trust me, if your in your house & some fecker steals from you, your insurance will pay out.
And if they chance their arm not to, argue because you will win.

Off topic tho, we will leave this here!

darkpagandeath

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What do you say to the person who took all your advice and "encouragement", and they are still raped?

What advice would you give to men to protect themselves from being raped?

Circular argument. What do you say to murder victims family when all their precautions failed ?

One eyed Jack

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Circular argument. What do you say to murder victims family when all their precautions failed ?

Exactly my point - it is a circular argument, because there is simply no advice you can give to a person that will prevent them from being raped by someone else who chooses to rape them.

[Deleted User]

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Don't leave your drink untended good or bad advice ? Don't get to messy may lead you into a situation that could have been prevented good or bad advice ?

Don't leave your handbag in the middle of the road.
Don't leave the keys of your car in the ignition with the door open.
Etc etc etc
I get what you are trying to say, but it doesn't in anyway mean that by being drunk you are bringing anything upon yourself.

If I'm hammered, sitting on the side of the road & some scrote decides to come up & kick me in the face, is that my fault because I was drunk? Because I didn't see him coming ?
Because I can't protect myself ?
I'm a victim & to be honest, more of a victim when I'm drunk because that scrote took advantage of the fact that I'm drunk to kick me in the face.

scream

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What do you say to the person who took all your advice and "encouragement", and they are still raped?

What advice would you give to men to protect themselves from being raped?

In so far as advising men on trying to protect themselves from rape, I'd give them the same advice as I would to a woman. I really don't see what your problem with advising people to avoid situations where they might be more vulnerable to rape is? In every day situations we're aware of our surroundings and who is around us, we're able to identify potential threats more easily and more clearly, that's not the case when we're drunk, for men or women. Telling people that they shouldn't have to protect themselves against rape is nonsense.

Sand

bubblypop wrote: »

Title of this thread

Women need to face facts about the link between drinking and rape.

Thats what this thread is about.
There is no link between rape & drinking. Rape occurs everyday.
To sober people, by sober people etc etc
To suggest to women that they are somehow causing their own rapes by being drunk is disgraceful.

The author of the piece presented stats that indicates alcohol is a factor in more the 70% of reported rapes. She never suggested that women *caused* their own rape by being drunk.

Nobody, man or woman, should drink to excess to the point that they suffer blackouts, lose the ability to make decisions, are vulnerable to others, or fall into canals or off promenades. Bad things should not happen to good people. Its not the fault of the victim if they do. But they do happen all the same. There are steps that minimise the vulnerability of anyone, and the shark has well and truly been jumped if giving sensible advise has become unacceptable.

Tasden

scream wrote: »

Why can't we do both? What is wrong with encouraging women to protect themselves?

We should all be encouraged not to leave ourselves vulnerable on a night out by abusing alcohol to the point where we are not aware of our surroundings or fully alert. To protect our safety and well being generally.

Women should not be told that they are specifically responsible for protecting themselves against rapists.

As has been pointed out many times, rape is not always outside a club down a dark alley with the girl passed out drunk. It can happen to a girl in her own bedroom at home. To a sober wife in her work uniform at home by her husband. It can happen to anybody and in all cases the blame and responsibility lies with the rapist alone.