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Child Item

"Women needs to face facts about the link between rape and drinking"

Lollipop95

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/niamh-horan-women-need-to-face-facts-about-the-link-between-rape-and-drinking-34794279.html

What do people make of this? Having read the article in full, I actually agree with SOME of the points she makes but I find the RSA comparison absurd. Car accidents ARE accidents, rape is anything BUT. I'm also quite disappointed that Niamh didn't focus on more of the onus being on the man not to rape. But it seems like she's trying to get across in the article that that side has already been discussed and she wants to open up another part of the debate

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WinnyThePoo

Columnist writes shocking article....Clicks inbound.

meeeeh

swervring wrote: »

And I agree that this is a valid warning to make, I just think there needs to be some better way of warning people to look out for themselves without there being a possibility of making a victim feel it was their fault.

I don't think that was Lazygal's point. It is more effective to make sure people don't rape than making sure that a particular person won't be raped because they will be just replaced by another victim.

I hate the discussion about drink less and you won't be raped. I was assaulted and reacted way too slowly even just by being very tired and confused. That still doesn't make me responsible for what happened. And this is where the drink argument comes in. We do a lot of things that put us in danger but that doesn't make us responsible for malicious actions of others.

Jayop

I honestly don't understand the outrage any time someone says something like be careful not to drink too much on a night out because it could increase the risk of you being raped. It's just good advice. It doesn't for a second blame the victim and it doesn't for a second excuse the rapist. It doesn't justify anything.

The hyper sensitivity to anything other than saying 'men don't rape' is unhelpful and not really good advise to a young girl going out. My daughter will soon be going out age and I'll be advising her on ways to protect herself and not getting hammered will be one of the things I'd advise. I'll be giving my son the same advise when it's time.

Conall Cernach

swervring wrote: »

Would someone who was beaten up, or robbed, when they were drunk, be told that they should have drank less? No matter what way you try to spin it, the effect of linking alcohol consumption to becoming a victim of rape is clearly placing responsibility on the victim for what has happened to them, and that is simply not acceptable. It is never ever the victim's fault and people should think twice about the impact this type of conversation has on those people who have already been victims - they don't deserve to be made to feel responsible for what has happened to them.

If you left the keys in your car and it was subsequently stolen I think the Guards would at least raise an eyebrow when you told them. When traveling abroad we are often given advice on avoiding pickpockets or scam artists. This is so that we can behave in a manner that can keep us safer in a world where there are a great many scumbags. Someone who is so drunk that they pass out or is unaware of their surroundings is an easy target for such a scumbag. I think that in trying to prevent these scumbags from committing their reprehensible crimes that it does no harm to inform people of their modus operandi. This should of course be done in a sensitive manner that places absolutely no blame on victims and not in clickbait type articles such as in the OP.

[Deleted User]

Do nobody think it strange that links to articles of certain journalists appear in Boards every now and them.

darkpagandeath

Jayop wrote: »

I honestly don't understand the outrage any time someone says something like be careful not to drink too much on a night out because it could increase the risk of you being raped. It's just good advice. It doesn't for a second blame the victim and it doesn't for a second excuse the rapist. It doesn't justify anything.

The hyper sensitivity to anything other than saying 'men don't rape' is unhelpful and not really good advise to a young girl going out. My daughter will soon be going out age and I'll be advising her on ways to protect herself and not getting hammered will be one of the things I'd advise. I'll be giving my son the same advise when it's time.

Get out of here with being sensible. What next don't leave your drink untended.

Winterlong

mariaalice wrote: »

Do nobody think it strange that links to articles of certain journalists appear in Boards every now and them.

Well, some so called 'journalists' do have a habit with coming up with total and utter ****e in their articles which makes most people scratch their heads and makes some people start a thread.

The more attention these muppets get the more ****e they come out with. Stop giving them attention folks!

endacl

It's actually quite handy seeing the name 'Niamh Horan' at the top of any article. Saves time. You can skip it, knowing you won't miss anything. Of any substance. Whatsoever.

looksee

It seems weird to me that people find it necessary to make these kind of recommendations at all. Sure, you have to say to children - if you eat too much chocolate you will get sick, if you touch that hot thing you will hurt yourself', but adults should really not have to be warned about self evident things.

If you get drunk you are creating a risk situation for yourself - men and women can be assaulted, anyone can fall into the road, get lost, trip and hurt themselves. No-one ever warned me about this, it was something I was aware of because it is obvious/common sense. You can choose to 1. not get drunk, 2. get drunk in a safe environment, or 3. get drunk and accept possible consequences. Its like the whole business of warning that a bag of peanuts may contain peanuts, or a take-away coffee contains hot liquid.

Self appointed experts offering this kind of advice are not victim blaming, they are infantising society.

The J Stands for Jay

swervring wrote: »

Would someone who was beaten up, or robbed, when they were drunk, be told that they should have drank less?

That's what I was told.

Jayop

But clearly people do need to be warned going by the amount of people, men and women that you see every weekend blind drunk. I say there's hardly a man in the country who hasn't got smashed drunk and got a slap on the way home by some chancer who seen him as an easy target.

Irish Guitarist

Sometimes people are too busy being offended to actually take some advice. Telling women they shouldn't drink to excess isn't the same as telling them they deserve whatever they get.

The guards advise you to lock your front door to avoid being burgled. There's no point in advising burglars not to rob houses because they're hardly likely to listen. In much the same way rapists aren't going to listen to anyone telling them not to rape so it makes sense to tell their potential victims to be vigilant and to keep their wits about them.

Having said that I only read half the article because it was badly written and annoying.

eviltwin

People need to look after themselves. It's not a good idea for anyone to get blind drunk, anything could happen. It still doesn't make a rape any less of a rape. Someone who attacks a vulnerable person is especially heinous.

meeeeh

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

The guards advise you to lock your front door to avoid being burgled. There's no point in advising burglars not to rob houses because they're hardly likely to listen. In much the same way rapists aren't going to listen to anyone telling them not to rape so it makes sense to tell their potential victims to be vigilant and to keep their wits about them.

That's just not true. In quite a few cases the defence is that rapist was drunk and made stupid decision or mistake. People who might behave themselves otherwise often become violent and get into the fights or commit other assaults when drunk. So telling them not to drink might be a better option.

conorhal

As a college student when I was living at home, without fail as I headed for the door for a night out I'd get the standard, 'now don't drink too much Conorhal, there can be some nasty and violent people out there that pick on defencless individuals and I worry that you could get hurt coming home through town late a night if you don't have your wits about you' speech from my mum. (Which I duly rolled my eyes to and ignored)
It's advice comes from exactly the same place, a worry that a lad alone and three sheets to the wind might get jumped by a lairy bunch of knackbags is a worry to many a parent, and I suppose and it's not an illigitimate concern. Thankfully I never got jumped by a by that bunch of lairy knackbags, but had I, I suspect that as I got kicked in the head and consciousness faded, my mum's sage advice would probably have been ringing in my ears (along with a recommendation to wear clean underwear, which would have doubtless proved immaterial).

[Deleted User]

Why is the article framed with woman need to instead of framed around the culture of heavy drinking in general and how potentially dangerous it is?. Always be wary of articles that start with woman should or woman need to, another item to look out for would be is the journalist themselves referenced more that the article.

We all have critical reasoning skills and they need to be used.

Print media is cut throat, getting you self out there and well know is probably very useful in salary negotiations

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

It does not matter if a woman is passed out on the street, wearing absolutely nothing, there is NO DEFENCE at all for raping her. She is not responsible for anyone else's actions. When she drinks, it doesn't mean she's fair game to be raped. When she dresses provocatively she is not inviting men to rape her.

If a man has sex with a woman without her consent then he is 100% a rapist and should be treated as such. If at any time after consenting she tells him to stop and he doesn't, he is a rapist.

blue note

LexieOnRale wrote: »

It does not matter if a woman is passed out on the street, wearing absolutely nothing, there is NO DEFENCE at all for raping her. She is not responsible for anyone else's actions. When she drinks, it doesn't mean she's fair game to be raped. When she dresses provocatively she is not inviting men to rape her.

If a man has sex with a woman without her consent then he is 100% a rapist and should be treated as such. If at any time after consenting she tells him to stop and he doesn't, he is a rapist.

I don't think I saw a single post that would contradict that.

Lyaiera

Making yourself safe anywhere is really important.

Someone who is raped is a victim and in no way responsible for what happened to them.

But there are much better, and more salient reasons to avoid getting extremely drunk, such as falling down stairs, twisting your ankle, losing your phone or bag, withdrawing most of your bank account and heading to the casino, and avoiding getting vomit stuck up your nose.

Maireadio

I'm not sure how to take this. I hate victim-blaming but an slightly scary incident that happened to me years ago made me realise that I need to not get so drunk on nights out that I am practically powerless. In this incident, the fact that I was drunk absolutely was a factor in someone attempting to take advantage of me. Of course nobody should be assaulted because they are drunk, but I think it needs to be accepted that some people will take advantage of drunk individuals. Saying it's wrong for it to happen won't stop it happening. I'd rather be safe than right.

By saying the above, I am kind of victim-blaming. I'm very conflicted on this topic.

[Deleted User]

Jayop wrote: »

I honestly don't understand the outrage any time someone says something like be careful not to drink too much on a night out because it could increase the risk of you being raped. It's just good advice. It doesn't for a second blame the victim and it doesn't for a second excuse the rapist. It doesn't justify anything.

The hyper sensitivity to anything other than saying 'men don't rape' is unhelpful and not really good advise to a young girl going out. My daughter will soon be going out age and I'll be advising her on ways to protect herself and not getting hammered will be one of the things I'd advise. I'll be giving my son the same advise when it's time.

So being drunk increases the risk of being raped?? The risk of being drunk is increased by men somehow thinking OK to rape a female who is out of her mind drunk.
It totally takes away blame from the rapist.
Basically your point is, don't get drunk because men just can't help themselves raping girls that can't defend themselves.
It doesn't matter how drunk someone is, its never their fault that they were raped . Never

Not getting hammered is just good advice. Health wise, mental health wise etc

One eyed Jack

Reduce your risk of being raped by never venturing outside your own front door. The statistics say you're more likely to be raped by someone close to you.

So a person is neither safe in their own home, nor are they safe outdoors.

Moral panic can be a wonderful tool in controlling people's behaviour and having them impose restrictions on themselves out of fear for their own safety, and even then they're not guaranteed they are safe.

This sort of backwards rationalisation and correlation in the article to link excessive drinking to the increased risk of being raped, is a way of trying to control people's drinking and socialising habits. There's absolutely no way of predicting that someone who is completely ossified is at any more risk of being raped than someone who hasn't touched a drop of alcohol all night. The only factor that increases someone's risk of being raped, is if there is a person in their vicinity who chooses to rape them.

Be as hypervigilant as you like, you're trying to think for thousands of potential possibilities, a rapist only has one single minded possibility on their mind - how to avoid getting caught after raping you.

armaghlad

bubblypop wrote: »

So being drunk increases the risk of being raped?? The risk of being drunk is increased by rapists somehow thinking OK to rape a female who is out of her mind drunk.
It totally takes away blame from the rapist.
Basically your point is, don't get drunk because men just can't help themselves raping girls that can't defend themselves.
It doesn't matter how drunk someone is, its never their fault that they were raped . Never

Not getting hammered is just good advice. Health wise, mental health wise etc

Fixed that for you.

I think it is basic common sense not to get inebriated. I'm sure a rapist would opt for a girl who seems pissed out of her head over one who seems sober when it comes to deciding what drink to spike with rohypnol. That isn't victim blaming that's just the sad reality.

blue note

bubblypop wrote: »

So being drunk increases the risk of being raped?? The risk of being drunk is increased by men somehow thinking OK to rape a female who is out of her mind drunk.
It totally takes away blame from the rapist.
Basically your point is, don't get drunk because men just can't help themselves raping girls that can't defend themselves.
It doesn't matter how drunk someone is, its never their fault that they were raped . Never

Not getting hammered is just good advice. Health wise, mental health wise etc

I don't think anyone here is talking about confusion over consent. That's another discussion. Here we're talking about clear rapes where an opportunistic rapist sees a girl perhaps drunk and on her own and might think she'll be easy to trick to cone down a dark alley, mightnt be able to remember much so won't be able to identify me. If I'm lucky she won't even remember what happened. That sort of thing.

Again, not her fault, but I think most people if they hear of their sister or daughter or friend walked home drunk and on their own we'd tell them they're mad think of who you could have met. If something actually happened to them that's obviously not an area you'd approach.

[Deleted User]

armaghlad wrote: »

Fixed that for you.

I think it is basic common sense not to get inebriated. I'm sure a rapist would opt for a girl who seems pissed out of her head over one who seems sober when it comes to deciding what drink to spike with rohypnol. That isn't victim blaming that's just the sad reality.

Your sure a rapist would go for a drunk girl? How do you know that? And even if it is true, it doesn't excuse the rapist, and it doesn't make it the girls fault.
Most people are raped by people they know, that's the sad reality.

[Deleted User]

blue note wrote: »

I don't think anyone here is talking about confusion over consent. That's another discussion. Here we're talking about clear rapes where an opportunistic rapist sees a girl perhaps drunk and on her own and might think she'll be easy to trick to cone down a dark alley, mightnt be able to remember much so won't be able to identify me. If I'm lucky she won't even remember what happened. That sort of thing.

Again, not her fault, but I think most people if they hear of their sister or daughter or friend walked home drunk and on their own we'd tell them they're mad think of who you could have met. If something actually happened to them that's obviously not an area you'd approach.

But it's still the rapists fault, & nothing to do with the girl.
It's a rapists idea to rape a woman, drunk or sober, so society trying to say that in some way that girl is at fault because she couldn't defend herself , is society saying to that rapist, that's OK, sure you can't help yourself.

By saying that a drunk girl can't defend themselves against rapists, you are actually placing partial blame onto the victim, whether you accept that or not.

Lyaiera

armaghlad wrote: »

I think it is basic common sense not to get inebriated. I'm sure a rapist would opt for a girl who seems pissed out of her head over one who seems sober when it comes to deciding what drink to spike with rohypnol.

Everything I've read says that the use of date rape drugs pales in significance to alcohol spiking, at least in Ireland.

A friend of mine was working in a bar for a while. They said there was one guy who came in regularly, with a different women each time. He would always go to the bar to get the drinks, and he would go to the bar repeatedly. He always had a half pint of Bulmers, and for his female friend he would always get a double spirit and some mixer, and he'd pour the mixer before bringing it to the table. The barman I knew said he didn't know if it was anything untoward, but they were very suspicious of him.

[Deleted User]

As an example, if I'm out tonight and I get drunk. Not even hammered just pretty drunk. Drunk enough that I fall into bed on getting home, in one of those 'dead to the world sleeps'

Shortly later, my front house door is kicked in and my house is burgled.
Now, on a normal sober night, I would hear this noise, I'd be awake & aware & capable of doing something about these burglars.
So, in my drunken sleep, am I somehow to blame for allowing my house to be burgled because i wasn't aware enough? Or sober enough to be aware?

eviltwin

bubblypop wrote: »

But it's still the rapists fault, & nothing to do with the girl.
It's a rapists idea to rape a woman, drunk or sober, so society trying to say that in some way that girl is at fault because she couldn't defend herself , is society saying to that rapist, that's OK, sure you can't help yourself.

By saying that a drunk girl can't defend themselves against rapists, you are actually placing partial blame onto the victim, whether you accept that or not.

And it completely ignores the fact that most women can't fight off a rapist even if they are sober.

It also raises other issues for instance is it lacking personal responsibility to let a stranger into your house, to go for a walk alone in a quiet park, to go home with a guy you meet in a bar.....where do we draw the line?

suicide_circus

When my mother warned me to look both ways before crossing the road or warned me not to accept sweets from strangers or indeed warned me not to drink too much, was she by implication suggesting that I would be to blame if disaster did befall me? Or was she giving sound common sense evidence based advice in order to help me be safer?