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From MSNBC - The negative impact of pacifism

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  • 27-09-2001 4:17am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭


    Pacifists are not serious people, although they devoutly believe they are, and their arguments are not being taken seriously at the moment. Yet, it is worth taking seriously, and in advance of need, the pacifists and their appeal.

    IT IS WORTH IT, first of all, because the idea of peace is inherently attractive; and the more war there is, the more attractive the idea becomes. It is worth it, secondly, because the reactionary left-liberal crowd in America and in Europe has already staked out its ground here: What happened to America is America’s fault, the fruits of foolish arrogance and greedy imperialism, racism, colonialism, etc., etc. From this rises an argument that the resulting war is also an exercise in arrogance and imperialism, etc., and not deserving of support. This argument will be made with greater fearlessness as the first memories of the 7,000 murdered recede. It is worth it, thirdly, because the American foreign policy establishment has all the heart for war of a titmouse, and not one of your braver titmice. The first faint, let-us-be-reasonable bleats can even now be heard: Yes, we must do something, but is an escalation of aggression really the right thing? Mightn’t it just make matters ever so much worse?

    A HIGHER MORALITY?
    Pacifists see themselves as obviously on the side of a higher morality, and there is a surface appeal to this notion, even for those who dismiss pacifism as hopelessly naive. The pacifists’ argument is rooted entirely in this appeal: Two wrongs don’t make a right; violence only begets more violence.
    There can be truth in the pacifists’ claim to the moral high ground, notably in the case of a war that is waged for manifestly evil purposes. So, for instance, a German citizen who declined to fight for the Nazi cause could be seen (although not likely by his family and friends) as occupying the moral position. But in the situation where one’s nation has been attacked — a situation such as we are now in — pacifism is, inescapably and profoundly, immoral. Indeed, in the case of this specific situation, pacifism is on the side of the murderers, and it is on the side of letting them murder again.

    CHOOSE SIDES
    In 1942, George Orwell wrote, in Partisan Review, this of Great Britain’s pacifists:
    “Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me.’ ”
    Peace activists voice their feelings in Seattle.
    England’s pacifists howled, but Orwell’s logic was implacable. The Nazis wished the British to not fight. If the British did not fight, the Nazis would conquer Britain. The British pacifists also wished the British to not fight. The British pacifists, therefore, were on the side of a Nazi victory over Britain. They were objectively pro-Fascist.
    An essentially identical logic obtains now. Organized terrorist groups have attacked America. These groups wish the Americans to not fight. The American pacifists wish the Americans to not fight. If the Americans do not fight, the terrorists will attack America again. And now we know such attacks can kill many thousands of Americans. The American pacifists, therefore, are on the side of future mass murders of Americans. They are objectively pro-terrorist.

    EVIL IN INACTION
    There is no way out of this reasoning. No honest person can pretend that the groups that attacked America will, if let alone, not attack again. Nor can any honest person say that this next attack is not at least reasonably likely to kill thousands upon thousands of innocent people. To not fight in this instance is to let the attackers live to attack and murder again; to be a pacifist in this instance is to accept and, in practice, support this outcome.
    As President Bush said of nations: a war has been declared; you are either on one side or another. You are either for doing what is necessary to capture or kill those who control and fund and harbor the terrorists, or you are for not doing this. If you are for not doing this, you are for allowing the terrorists to continue their attacks on America. You are saying, in fact: I believe that it is better to allow more Americans — perhaps a great many more — to be murdered than to capture or kill the murderers.
    That is the pacifists’ position, and it is evil.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    Pacifists are funny sort of people.

    They will go out of thier way to prove that violence causes more violence, even at the cost of thier own lives.

    Buddist Monks for example have been known to pour gasoline over themselves and set themselves alight in protest to senseless killing.

    Even pacifists may know the evil of inaction and would take action accordly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Originally posted by Gargoyle

    To not fight in this instance is to let the attackers live to attack and murder again; to be a pacifist in this instance is to accept and, in practice, support this outcome.

    And here, once again, we have the common misconception that the pacifists are urging inaction. The blinkered view that there are two options :

    1) Go to war
    2) Do nothing / surrender.

    With such a blinkered view, of course you can argue forcefully that the pacifists' are wrong. However, were you to look at the full set of options available, you would potentially see that not only are there other options, but that going to war is probably amongst the least likely to be successful in the long run.

    jc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 359 ✭✭Aspro


    It is worth it, secondly, because the reactionary left-liberal crowd in America and in Europe has already staked out its ground here: What happened to America is America’s fault, the fruits of foolish arrogance and greedy imperialism, racism, colonialism, etc., etc. From this rises an argument that the resulting war is also an exercise in arrogance and imperialism, etc., and not deserving of support.

    First of all I am not a pacifist. I do not agree with inaction. If I had been alive in the 1930's I would have been one of those people going off to fight against Franco and his fascist forces in Spain. These were the "reactionary left-liberals", as Gargoyle calls them, from all over the world who weren't fighting for the interests of any nation but rather for the interests of every ordinary person on the planet against the most reactionary ideology humanity has ever faced.
    However I wouldn't have fought in WWI, WWII, Vietnam, the Gulf War or any other vehicle whereby ordinary people are sent to the slaughter in a conflict that is not of their making.

    "..the fruits of foolish arrogance and gredy imperialism" - I hate to have to point it out again but this happens to be the facts, and the factors that have created terrorism. If there is concrete proof that bin Laden or Al Qaeda perpetrated the vicious attack on New York then why isn't it made public - publish it!

    So far there has just been speculation and propaganda to justify launching a war that will result in innocent Afghans being murdered and a destabilisation of the Middle East. What do right-wingers like Gargoyle want? For the world to descend into WWIII - Islam Vs. The West??

    And who benefits? Same as ever, the arms trade. The rich warmongers who hold no value in human life.

    The terrorists should be apprehended and brought to justice but the measures taken by the major powers have just been a cynical manipulation of the emotions of a frightened American public to further their own interests. So what's new??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭beaver


    Best movie about pacifism? The Big Lebowski (it's the best movie about anything)...


    DUDE
    Walter, you can't do that. These
    guys're like me, they're pacificists.
    Smokey was a conscientious objector.

    WALTER
    You know Dude, I myself dabbled with
    pacifism at one point. Not in Nam,
    of course--

    DUDE
    And you know Smokey has emotional
    problems!

    WALTER
    You mean--beyond pacifism?

    DUDE
    He's fragile, man! He's very fragile!

    As the two men get into the car:

    WALTER
    Huh. I did not know that. Well,
    it's water under the bridge. And we
    do enter the next round-robin, am I
    wrong?

    DUDE
    No, you're not wrong--

    WALTER
    Am I wrong!

    DUDE
    You're not wrong, Walter, you're
    just an asshole.

    They watch a squad car take a squealing turn into the lot.

    WALTER
    Okay then. We play Quintana and
    O'Brien next week. They'll be
    pushovers.

    DUDE
    Just, just take it easy, Walter.

    WALTER
    That's your answer to everything,
    Dude. And let me point out--pacifism
    is not--look at our current situation
    with that camel****er in Iraq--
    pacifism is not something to hide
    behind.

    DUDE
    Well, just take 't easy, man.

    WALTER
    I'm perfectly calm, Dude.

    DUDE
    Yeah? Wavin' a gun around?!

    WALTER
    (smugly)
    Calmer than you are.

    this irritates the Dude further.

    DUDE
    Just take it easy, man!

    Walter is still smug.

    WALTER
    Calmer than you are.


    --

    I guess Walter has a point.


This discussion has been closed.
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