Irish Air Corps

I dunno why we'd want fighters, I mean we'd never be able to afford anything that could reliably take out any OTHER type of fighter out there so why bother? I'd go for a bunch of cheap attack helicopters with TOWs or something similar - they'd be more versitile when it came to roles both at home and on peace keeping missions abroad..

Teeth.

First off, we have to consider what are the real risks to Irish security.

Domestic terrorism. PIRA, CIRA, RIRA, OIRA, INLA, UVF, UDA and proxies. 'Fast' aircraft would have little use in any such scenario. Helicopters and (in necessary, armed) spotter aircraft would be much more useful.

International terrorism. No specific threat, but in light of the WTC attack, this should be looked at again. In practical terms, passive civil defence and police efforts are likely to be more economic and effective. One risk is the use of Ireland as a springboard for an attack against the USA or the UK.

Trespass by an international power. The USA, UK, France are the most likely, due to proximity, desire / necessity and ability. However, Russia, Germany, Denmark, Spain and The Netherlands should be kept in mind. Scenarios involving these would range from trespass by ballistic missile and other submarines, territorial disputes in the Rockall Basin. Economic, political or counter-terrorist espionage and special operations should also be kept in mind. Covert emergency sheltering by a damaged submarine is also a possibility. The Casa aircraft could be used to drop sono-bouys, however none have been purchased. Naval sonar is virtually non-existent. Most of the coast is covered by Coastguard surface search radar, but of a commercial, not military standard. No fixed military radar, limited transponder-based service at Dublin and Shannon (was Mount Gabriel rebuilt after the IRA attack in the 1980’s?) {edit: add Dooncarton in Mayo} – these are useless against any aircraft with a non-working transponder. Good relations should avoid such a scenario, but this is no guarantee. Response to infringement would be quickest by jet aircraft.

Smuggling. Primarily drugs and weapons, but also expect an increase in Cash (Euros and defunct Euro currencies). Primarily for domestic criminal gangs, but also with Ireland as a trans-shipment point to the UK/Europe and the USA. There is a potential risk of Ireland becoming a weapons source point for international criminals and terrorists. Fast jets could be used to identify and interrogate aircraft.

Fishery protection. Risks from infringement on EEZ and territorial waters by fishing vessels and foreign fishery patrol vessels and aircraft. Likely opponents would be UK, French, Dutch, Spanish, Danish, Norwegian, Japanese and Russian vessels.

Over-flight by rogue / suspicious aircraft and navigation / shipping hazards. This could vary from rogue weather balloons, floating debris, damaged vessels or aircraft and vessels in several of the above categories

Shipping protection. Ireland sits next to the main shipping route between North America and Northern Europe. The only real risk sits in the category of the conventional WWIII threat from Soviet aircraft and submarines.

Other duties

Economic Protection. Ireland is now a much richer country, some individual factories are fundamental on a global scale - including Intel and Pfzier (sp), which makes them targets on a global scale.

Search and Rescue. Primarily at sea. The issue is currently being addressed. A possible extension of this would be the creation of Air Ambulances and the more complicated concept of Combat SAR.

International dutiesIt is unlikely that we will ever be called on to contribute combat aircraft to UN or PPF operations. However, spotting, transport, CSAR and combat support are obvious possibilities.

Transport. Executive / ministerial transport is an existing requirement, however the availability of a dedicated medium transport for overseas support is a possibility. I would suggest the use of a dual fit-out (executive and troop transport) B-737 or similar aircraft. A dedicated military transport would be of less use in current operations. The Casas have a limited capability in this regard, with space for up to one small AFV (no handling equipment / parachutes?) or paratroops.

Photography / Mapping. A capability that hasn't really existed. The availability of military grade satellite photographs on a commercial basis reduces this requirement.

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In summary, I think what we need to be able to do is monitor our airspace and waters properly.

We need to be able to respond to likely threats or issues. We need to introduce military radar, obtain a workable sonar system and make sure Coastguard radar is centrally controlled.

We need to increase the number and capability of multi-role patrol planes (increase Casas to perhaps 6 a/c with anti-submarine gear sono-bouys and LWTs and anti-shipping weapons - rockets, Sea Eagle, Exocet or AM15).

We then need to create a proportionate, but credible, response force of up to perhaps 10 armed jet-trainers (Hawk comes to mind) - guns, rockets / bombs, sidewinder, ATGM and anti-shipping weapons. These might be expensive as ab-initio trainers, so Cessnas or new models Warriors could be used.

I would prefer no more than 2 models of helicopter (one light, one medium).

Ideal force: 10 BAE Hawk 100/200, 6 Casa CN-235, 6 SF-260 Warrior, 1 B-737, 8 medium helicopters, 4 light helicopters.

Originally posted by Fidelis
Victor, you get way to involved with military affairs that sometimes it scares me

Who me? naw!

Originally posted by Fidelis
To the point though, Teeth is right, really no point in having fighters, sure the British TA air force would wipe us out

Oooh. Tucanos scare me!

Originally posted by Fidelis
Having low level ground attack planes like the German Alpha Jet or the Brazilian AMX for basic duties would be nice, similarly, a squadron of Bell Defenders would do the trick for anti-armour roles.

Alpha jet is a bit dated, not sure if it would be economic to re-open production for a very small run or even get second hand aircraft. AMX not so much, but same comment. Defenders, might be a bit light up against a tank's .50 cal, but at least they would be cheap.

Originally posted by Fidelis
Idealistically, a pair of F-16's based in Baldonnel and Shannon would be handy for air space patrols, while a Super Stallion/Sea King at said airfields and another at Finner/Sligo could supply support to the navy and fishery protection.

You need more than 2, you would need 2 to be ready at any given time, which when you take training, maintaining, repairs, an allowance for losses and the like into account means a minimum of 6-10 aircraft. A decision is pending on medium lift helicopters (speculated that there will be 2 separate orders).

Originally posted by Fidelis
A Hercules would also be appreciated I'm sure - ferry those new Mowags around the place.

Yes, expensive, but quick. Would the Mowag be "too broad at the the shoulders" for the Hercules?

Originally posted by Fidelis
we could invest in an anti-aircraft missile system Although the RBS 70's do the job at under 4miles I think.

Range of Giraffe radar 16 miles or so. Speed of aircraft 500 mph. Reaction time 2 minutes. Nice for defending a single command post, not factories, airports or cities.

Hi rushbrooke,

One hell of an old topic you brought up there

We now have a Military forum for discussing these topics, I'm moving the thread there, the guys there can probably help you out if anyone can.

rushbrooke wrote:

Does anybody have any info on Fouga Magister jets operating out of Baldonnell inthe late 1960's. I think one may have been on loan from Potez which had some sort of an aerospace industry in Baldonnell at the time.

I believe Fougas were French, and Potez was (is still?) a French aircraft manufacturer.

Wiki'ed Fouga Magister which features a linkie to the wiki'ed Irish Air Corps

Google is your best friend (maybe even Google.fr - give me a pm'd shout if you want a quick translation of anything you find).

As for what jets to equip the Irish Air Force with, I only just noticed in late August that the Belgians (:eek: ) have a sh*tpot full of F-16s, and now at least a couple of Warts (A-10s) (anyone flying to Brussels South with Ryanair, look out the hangars right of the terminal building if/whenever doors are left open ).

... come to think of it, a few A-10s kinda sense: built like brick sh*thouses, relatively simple and cheap to run, very polyvalent platforms. Not to mention the "don't f*ck with me" factor that immediately attaches to them

Maskhadov wrote:

The navy is another thread. Seeing that we are going to extend our territorial waters soon we need at least 10 - 15 more patrol ships built to bigger and better specification than the ones we currently have.

The government has set out a list of roles for the Defence Force in a white paper a few years ago. The main job of the air corps is to defend the country against armed aggression. That means having the necessary equipment and aircraft to do that. That means purchasing some jets.

you miss my point to buy fighters for national pride is complete nonsense, we should build another 100 national schools for national pride or world class hospitals for national pride or more universities for national pride.....not fighters

Maskhadov wrote:

National pride is never expressed in school buildings.

Ensuring the young people in this country don't turn out a bunch of moronic, stupid, chav wannabe scum by providing them with a deacent education which allows them the chance to persue a career that pays them well (keeping them off the dole) and have some sort of intelligence is national pride.