Floor Insulation

yop · 22-09-2005 12:48am #1

Lads

Have to put down 25mm insulation on ply upstairs for the UFH, then I will either by putting 75mm or 100mm downstairs.

So what is the big difference between them all, costing are different (thanks EVE,) but what makes one better than the other?

Aeroboard 75mm plat. floor €5.90 sq.m
100mm plat. 11.30

Kinspan 60mm €8 sqm
tp 10 €14.50 sq.m

xtratherm 60mm €7.10
100mm € 13.5

That is 3 types, I am sure there are more

yop · 22-09-2005 10:06am

You know the insulation with the grooves for the UFH, where can this be got?

patrido · 22-09-2005 10:46am

the only place i've seen the grooved panels is osma in the uk. don't know if you have to buy their ufh system to get it, or if it only fits their ufh, etc

wrt specs... don't know anything about aerobord, but i looked at the specs of xtratherm vs kingspan when picking my cavity wall insulation and xtratherm was very marginally better than kinspan, but not enough to make any real difference. kingspan have a bigger brand name so they charge more i think.

btw, isnt tp10 for the roof, not the floor? i don't know if it makes any difference, but...
tp = thermapitch
tf=thermafloor
tw = thermawall

yop · 22-09-2005 10:59am

Apologies, that should have been TF70.

So would u go with the xtrtherm before the kingspan?

patrido · 22-09-2005 11:04am

given that i can't see any difference between the products, i dont see any reason not to pick xtratherm based on price. are you putting in a steel mesh in the screed. i really can't determine if it's required/recommended or not.

yop · 22-09-2005 11:26am

no mesh going in, cannot see the point of it to be honest and not seen it used in any place who have put in the UFH.

Had a look at the Aeroboard site and to achieve the same P/A at a U value of 0.25 it requires 14mm more Aeroboard than KingSpan, and 4mm more than Xtherm, if I am reading it right!!!

yop · 22-09-2005 11:33am

The PA on this also, can anyone figure it out, we have a P/A of 0.4 on the ground floor, they reckon on
Aerobord - 75mm
Xtherm - 55mm
Kings - 55mm

Now, daft question but if I put 100mm of XTherm would that be a waste?

patrido · 22-09-2005 11:38am

yeh, i looked too. aerobord is an inferior product.

the thickness of kingspan and xtratherm should be the same though, as the thermal conductivity of both is around 0.023. aerobord is 0.031

yop · 22-09-2005 11:39am

what about puttin into more than required? Is this a waste of money?

patrido · 22-09-2005 12:04pm

yop wrote:

The PA on this also, can anyone figure it out, we have a P/A of 0.4 on the ground floor, they reckon on
Aerobord - 75mm
Xtherm - 55mm
Kings - 55mm

Now, daft question but if I put 100mm of XTherm would that be a waste?

do you mean a waste of money?

as you mentioned, you have to bring the floor up 6 inches so it's either put in extra insulation or screed.

so compare the cost of 2 extra inches of screed versus 2 inches of insulation. if the results are leaning towards the screed, then factor in that it will take longer to heat up the extra thermal mass of the screed. so unless you have a optimised start/stop heating controller, this is likely to cost a bit more to run. plus you lose more heat with less insulation.

while 0.25 is the required u value now, in a couple years it's likely to be 0.22, so might as well put in at least enough to achieve that, i.e. 80mm.

Eve1 · 22-09-2005 3:21pm

There is another company called Knauf insulation who do a type of mineral wool and rigid board. I am waiting for the sales rep to ring me back so I'll post when I get more info.

Eve

Builderwoman! · 23-09-2005 12:00am

Hi Eve sorry to butt in here but I am also researching sound insulation. Do you have contact details for this company please? Much appreciated.

Eve1 · 23-09-2005 11:45am

Great to see another woman self builder on boards! Knauf don't distribute directly but I have posted the distributer below. They seem to do quite a number of different types of insulation but they haven't got back to me yet.

Tel: 01 623 4541
Fax: 01 623 4553
Email: dublin@insulationdistributors.ie

Builderwoman! · 23-09-2005 12:10pm

Hi Eve, yes it is great to see another woman self builder. Hubby is way to busy in work and cannot talk to people most times to organise things so I do pretty much all of it. I have to say I am enjoying it and it is working out fine. Don't know how you find dealing with the trades but I have to say it's been grand once we weeded out a few cowboys at quote stage.

After I posted you I did a search for knauf and found they have a site for the Uk which brings you to details for an office and contacts in Dublin (which is different than the one you mentioned) check out the co.uk site and see what you think. I sent them an email and hopefully they will come back to me. I am really researching sound insulation for studded walls and more importantly for between and over floor joists. We are putting down timber flooring upstairs and want to make sure we don't regret it. I think putting in a bit of research now will help find the right product and save our ears (and our sanity!) for the rest of our life!!

On the subject of windows Eve did you go with Marvin after all? Our quote from them was over €40k excluding front door! Kolbe were a lot cheaper and I think if the money was in the budget I would go with Kolbe. However we just can't justify spending that kind of money on windows so we are going to go with black pvc. You mentioned a Marvin fibre glass one? What's the story with them? Would appreciate some info please before we go ahead with a purchase. Great chatting to you. The lads are really great help on this site I have to say. I'm glad another woman told me about it!
Thanks again. And lads....your opinions on the above are more than welcomed too!

yop · 23-09-2005 12:30pm

Builderwoman - we got the "bog Oak" windows, black PVC in other words.

I sourced them from Mahons, we paid 8k euro for 20 windows and 2 doors if that is any help.
Extremely happy with them as they have strenght and character also with a very visible grain on them.
They are black on both sides.

Builderwoman! · 23-09-2005 12:37pm

That was a brill price. Have to count the number of our windows now. Do you have roof lights too? Did you go velux or another brand?

yop · 23-09-2005 2:12pm

warned away from anything but Velux, not sure if Pete mentioned that the flashing on the Velux was more superior

Builderwoman! · 23-09-2005 3:18pm

Thanks for that Yop. Will have to mention that to Pete. We're emailing re clay tiles at mo...forgot to ask him about roof lights. Thanks for the reminder.

Eve1 · 23-09-2005 4:15pm

Builderwoman

After I posted you I did a search for knauf and found they have a site for the Uk which brings you to details for an office and contacts in Dublin (which is different than the one you mentioned)

Yeah I contacted them initially but they said they don't deal with people directly so you have to get in contact with one of their suppliers

You mentioned a Marvin fibre glass one? What's the story with them? Would appreciate some info please before we go ahead with a purchase.

They do a fibreglass window , which is meant to be quite similar to wood, its thirty percent cheaper than their wood windows but it has all the same glass etc, so it has a u value of .3. To put that in perspective a room that has a double glazing would be 2 degrees below a room with the Marvin loe 2 (u value of .3) My brother in law is from the states and said that they are highly regarded over there. I haven't seem what they look like though but he said they are like wood.

CJhaughey · 23-09-2005 5:17pm

I had my foundation finished today, have to say I was very impressed with the finish. I have 2x 60mmmm aerobord on the top of the "hump" and 60mm kingspan all round the edge.
AFAIK the first 60mm makes the biggest difference than the law of diminishing returns kicks in.
I wouldn't say that Aeroboard is an inferior product I think that it is just how you use different materials.
The Foundation guy told me that putting kingspan in walls and floors it has to be taped or it shrinks!!

Builderwoman! · 23-09-2005 6:02pm

Thanks for info Eve on Marvin. Will have to look into them before we go upvc.

I will get in touch with your contact for Knauf. Looks like a worthwhile product. Have you heard anything further about it?

patrido · 23-09-2005 6:41pm

CJhaughey wrote:

I had my foundation finished today, have to say I was very impressed with the finish. I have 2x 60mmmm aerobord on the top of the "hump" and 60mm kingspan all round the edge.
AFAIK the first 60mm makes the biggest difference than the law of diminishing returns kicks in.
I wouldn't say that Aeroboard is an inferior product I think that it is just how you use different materials.
The Foundation guy told me that putting kingspan in walls and floors it has to be taped or it shrinks!!

nice one, congrats on getting started

when i said that aerobord is inferior i meant that it allows more heat loss per mm of thickness compared with other products. so you need to put in more of it to get the same effect. but like anything, an expensive product badly installed, is worse than a cheaper product done exactly by the book.

purely in terms of heat lost/retained, there is no diminishing return effect until heat loss is negligible (which is very difficult to achieve). the effect of insulation is linear - twice as much insulation will reduce the heat loss by exactly half in the real world.

it's only when you take into account the extra construction costs involved with super insulating a house that the return diminishes somewhat. for example putting in a cavity to take 400mm of insulation would involve wider foundations, special wall ties, complications with closing the cavity, etc.

also, the bigger sizes seem to cost more, not less. the 100mm thermafloor seems to cost more than double the cost of a 50mm board. probably because of less demand and manufacturing costs. anyone know if there's any reason not to put in two layers of 50mm boards?

CJhaughey · 23-09-2005 7:40pm

No I guess thats why they fit 2 layers of 60mm EPS in my floor.
If you look on the Scanhome.ie website you can see the passive house in the top left click on that scroll down and there is pics of his passive house, I think he uses 11" of EPS under the floor to achieve his low energy requirements.
I am satisfied with the 120mm.

jurij · 10-06-2014 11:29pm

hi maybe some one know how much cost to make water heating floor? 200 sq m

Floor Insulation

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