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The return of Handguns History?

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  • 10-09-2005 12:08am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭


    So I've been away for a few years and suddenly I hear that handguns have returned to the republic after 35 years?
    So my question is "How did this come about"? Some of my canadian shooter friends have questioned me about it.

    My uneducated response to them is that someone challenged the handgun ban in court and was permitted to import an olympic style handgun and this opened the door for everything else.

    From a quick search this is the procedure as I under stand it is, 1 pick a handgun model, 2 get it approved by the local garda station at their discretion, 3 put in place the required security measures requested by the garda, 4 be a member of a gun club. 5 go through the same procedure for each handgun.


    What I am unsure about is.
    1 must the handgun be unloaded at home and in transit? (in canada its a firearms offense to store any gun in a loaded condition)
    2 how are the handguns transported to and from the range? In a locked container or just a unlocked range bag? can you stop on the way to the range or make a detour with a handgun in your car?
    3 are there restriction in law on the type of handgun you can get? eg. no Desert Eagles in 50ae? and no full auto glocks
    4 are handguns limited to a certain magazine capacity? can you get a 20rd mag for your glock 17?


    The canadian situation is somewhere in between the Irish and American laws.
    There are 2 license categories, a Non restricted license which will allow you to own what would normally be called a hunting rifle over a certain length and of any caliber you desire this includes a lot of military style rifles but all semi auto rifles must have the magazine block at 5 rounds for example this is a military style hunting rifle http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1600/1623.htm pe90.jpg
    but no handguns

    The "Restricted license" this includes all handguns as long as they are not full auto and have a barrel longer then 104mm and normal calibers 22lr and 9mm and above but not in between, except for olympic style pistols eg a walter ppk would be prohibited by length and caliber. Handguns must have no more then 10 rd magazines and can only be fired at a range there is no carrying of handguns for defense for most folk. Also in the restricted list is a selection of rifles that are deemed to be scary looking, for example the wonderful AR 15 is restricted even if it is longer then the requirements for a hunting rifle. When the current laws came in to effect someone opened a gun digest and put a red marker through all the scary looking guns and the were put on the restricted list.
    P1020493.jpg

    All restricted firearms must be stored in a locked container with a trigger lock on it as well.
    example.. you just have to put a trigger lock on your gun and lock it in a bag and leave it on the kitchen table and the law says your ok. If you have a safe or vault you dont need a trigger lock on it. you also need a permit to transport it too the range

    Also there is the prohibited cat which you cant buy unless you possessed a prohibited cat gun prior to 95 when the new law came in to effect eg if you had an AK 47 in 95 you can still buy a gun on the prohibited list eg an MP5. still 5 rd limit.


    Its a one license gets you as many guns in the category as you want, I've met people here who have had 220 firearms a year or 2 ago but thinned out their collection down to a tiny 180 guns.
    You must do a 2 day safety course with a government approved instructor and sit an exam for each of the 2 licenses then for your restricted firearms join a club and you apply for an Authorization To Transport which is another form that lets you travel to the range (this is redundant because the only places you can have your pistol is at home and the range anyway)

    And the big complaint is the new firearms registry. All hunters must have their rifles serial number registered to their license and name. Politicians said it would cost 2 million dollars to enforce and the cost 5 years later is 2 BILLION!


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 144 ✭✭Flattop 15


    [
    QUOTE=Babble]So I've been away for a few years and suddenly I hear that handguns have returned to the republic after 35 years?
    So my question is "How did this come about"? Some of my canadian shooter friends have questioned me about it.

    My uneducated response to them is that someone challenged the handgun ban in court and was permitted to import an olympic style handgun and this opened the door for everything else.

    To answer it breifly,pretty much as you said,except methinks it was a 9mm.
    Also I think alot of the arguement on the gubmint side fell out after the cease fire and suspension of PIRA activity.Ditto for the big calibre rifles.It also caught the dept of Justice and Gardai with their pants down and heads in the sand.Now they are hopping mad,and are cobbling together somthing in the Autumn in a bill that may or may not ban everything again.We will wait and see.


    From a quick search this is the procedure as I under stand it is, 1 pick a handgun model, 2 get it approved by the local garda station at their discretion, 3 put in place the required security measures requested by the garda, 4 be a member of a gun club. 5 go through the same procedure for each handgun.

    Except for points 3&4 being contary to Irish firearms law at this point in time.
    There is no requirement per se that you have "security measures"in place there is no defination in law what the local super can demand or where it becomes excessive.Nor is there any requirements for club membership.It hasnt changed much around here.It is a You know the law ,but it is" policy" not to issue unless you do as WE say type situation".

    What I am unsure about is.
    1 must the handgun be unloaded at home and in transit? (in canada its a firearms offense to store any gun in a loaded condition)
    2 how are the handguns transported to and from the range? In a locked container or just a unlocked range bag? can you stop on the way to the range or make a detour with a handgun in your car?
    3 are there restriction in law on the type of handgun you can get? eg. no Desert Eagles in 50ae? and no full auto glocks
    4 are handguns limited to a certain magazine capacity? can you get a 20rd mag for your glock 17?

    Going by the law,nothing about what condition you store it at home.Hopefully common sense would prevail on that one.
    2]In public we will have to assume the same as long guns.Unloaded and in a gun slip or case.Nothing about where you go to or from,just that it is secured properly out of sight in a vechicle.
    3]Nope, at the moment if you can convince your super that you want/need a 20mm maadi grifith pistol you can get it liscensed.One of our board members as an intresting tale about a FA Glock :D .Do a research of the posts here.
    4] As of yet no mag capacity restrictions.Sarah Brady and Billary Klintoon &Co didnt really make it over here.Thank God!!
    The canadian situation is somewhere in between the Irish and American laws.
    There are 2 license categories, a Non restricted license which will allow you to own what would normally be called a hunting rifle over a certain length and of any caliber you desire this includes a lot of military style rifles but all semi auto rifles must have the magazine block at 5 rounds for example this is a
    military style hunting rifle [url]

    Nice SIG BTW
    This would be in theory legal here.BUT it must pass the "idontlikelookodat" :rolleyes: test of your local Super.A unique test devised in Templemore garda training college for Gardai to determine the legality,lethality,,calibre or wether the firearm in question is legal in Irealand or not.Simply place the firearm in fron to them and they will give you an instant yea or nay by the following saying "idonlikedelookodat" TRANS "no it is illegal and not possible to be owned here" or "Datsokgrand" TRANS " yes it's perfectly legal and OK for you to own".
    Despite it being a FA Browning 50 cal machine gun or a 7.62 GE minigun :rolleyes:
    5 rounds eh?three more than most of the same type of hunting rifles allowed in Europe.


    [/url]
    The "Restricted license" this includes all handguns as long as they are not full auto and have a barrel longer then 104mm and normal calibers 22lr and 9mm and above but not in between, except for olympic style pistols eg a walter ppk would be prohibited by length and caliber

    So basically you got rid of very concealable guns??Somthing along the Saturday night special legislation in the USA?


    Handguns must have no more then 10 rd magazines and can only be fired at a range there is no carrying of handguns for defense for most folk. Also in the restricted list is a selection of rifles that are deemed to be scary looking, for example the wonderful AR 15 is restricted even if it is longer then the requirements for a hunting rifle.
    How about for hunting?I thought handgun hunting was a big thing in Canada?
    How to they determine the restricted models.Would a AR15 in thumbhole stock and civillian dress pass?Or is it also including derivatives??
    How about the ruger mini14.did it go as well?
    When the current laws came in to effect someone opened a gun digest and put a red marker through all the scary looking guns and the were put on the restricted list.

    Against stupidity even the Gods labour in vain :rolleyes:

    Its a one license gets you as many guns in the category as you want, I've met people here who have had 220 firearms a year or 2 ago but thinned out their collection down to a tiny 180 guns.
    You must do a 2 day safety course with a government approved instructor and sit an exam for each of the 2 licenses then for your restricted firearms join a club and you apply for an Authorization To Transport which is another form that lets you travel to the range (this is redundant because the only places you can have your pistol is at home and the range anyway)

    Sounds not to bad.How much does it cost.Is it the same type of course for a CWP in the US or is it a long tedious drawn out lecture?THAT WILL BE THE DAY that our lot allows you 180 plus guns.Your annual firearm lic bill I would est at appx 250K Euros
    And the big complaint is the new firearms registry. All hunters must have their rifles serial number registered to their license and name. Politicians said it would cost 2 million dollars to enforce and the cost 5 years later is 2 BILLION!
    [/QUOTE]
    Aint gun control wonderful??? :rolleyes: But dopey politicans are to be found all over the world.So dont feel too bad on that one. :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭Babble


    Flattop 15 wrote:
    [

    Now they are hopping mad,and are cobbling together somthing in the Autumn in a bill that may or may not ban everything again.We will wait and see.
    Knee jerk reactions are just a recipe for disaster.
    I've been told the current canadian laws that are in place now make it just as hard to obtain a non restricted hunting rifle as it is a handgun Therefore people who wanted a handgun before but didn't want the hassle of all the paper work are going out and buying handguns, "because they all ways wanted one" so the sales for restricted firearms and gone way up in the wake of Bill C68
    Flattop 15 wrote:
    [

    So basically you got rid of very concealable guns??Somthing along the Saturday night special legislation in the USA?
    Thats pretty much exactly what happened. A firearms "expert" was asked to define a saturday night special and he said he couldn't, and when pressed to average out some common traits it was determined that most were under 104mm 4" and most were above 22lr and below 9mm in caliber.
    So they became prohibited
    Flattop 15 wrote:
    [
    How about for hunting? I thought handgun hunting was a big thing in Canada?
    How to they determine the restricted models.Would a AR15 in thumbhole stock and civillian dress pass?Or is it also including derivatives??
    How about the ruger mini14.did it go as well?
    Restricted means "Range only" The AR 15 didnt go anywhere it just became restricted to range use

    The mini 14 has a wood stock and is therfore not evil so its non restricted

    No handgun hunting! which is a shame because I would much rather carry a .44mag on my hip in bear country then bear spray!

    If I had a free miners license (independent prospector, gold panner) or had a scientific survey type job where I could demonstrate that I couldn't carry a rifle for animal protection. Then I could apply for a wilderness carry permit for work, but I think its still quite rare.
    And 30 people in Canada are permitted to carry for personal defense, Politicians and foreign dignitaries but its a secret.

    Restricted firearms are determined by what is on the restricted list which was made a few years ago and it normally includes all derivatives
    "The firearm of the design commonly known as the M-16 rifle, and any variant or modified version of it, including the:....."

    This is the long long list http://www.cfc.gc.ca/info_for-renseignement/factsheets/r&p_e.asp

    Something interesting happened recently where a canadian manufacturer created a pump action .223 rifle that looked like the AR 15 but shared very few common parts and the government decided that it was an AR 15 variant and restricted it on looks. And can only be used at a range

    Any new military style rifle thats not on the restricted list and is available as a semi auto just has to have a barrel of 18.5" or more to be non restricted and you could take it hunting
    Like this one
    image004.jpghttp://www3.mb.sympatico.ca/~jhipwell/XCR.html
    Flattop 15 wrote:
    [
    Sounds not to bad.How much does it cost.Is it the same type of course for a CWP in the US or is it a long tedious drawn out lecture?THAT WILL BE THE DAY that our lot allows you 180 plus guns.Your annual firearm lic bill I would est at appx 250K Euros

    I paid $150 canadian for the course and it was the best course I've ever taken, the guy came to my house with a dozen guns and a huge box full of deactivated ammo and we talked guns for 12 hours over 2 days. Including a explanation of what bullets do when they hit tissue. :eek:
    The government application cost $80 and asks you questions about your mental health and your love life, they can also check with an ex wife before you get your card. Then it takes 6 weeks and is good for 5 years.
    There is no cost to register a firearm.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Flattop 15 wrote:
    To answer it breifly,pretty much as you said,except methinks it was a 9mm.
    No, 'twas a Toz-35 .22lr single-shot olympic 50m pistol.

    Story here.

    Now they are hopping mad,and are cobbling together somthing in the Autumn in a bill that may or may not ban everything again.We will wait and see.
    It certainly seems to have the capacity to do that and more; it would appear that the amendments overturn the Supreme Court decision in Dunne (the "gun safes" case) completely; not only will gun safes become mandatory (not such a bad thing, really, even according to the NARGC and others); but the Commissioner of the Gardai can issue "guidelines" (which will become de facto instructions) to the Superintendents; and it looks like the Superintendents may indeed be overridable by the District Courts in their licencing decisions, which means that the D.C.s would also be overriding the Commissioner's guidelines. So, get friendly with your D.C. judges...
    2]In public we will have to assume the same as long guns.Unloaded and in a gun slip or case.Nothing about where you go to or from,just that it is secured properly out of sight in a vechicle.

    Been wondering about that of late. It's against the Road Traffic Act to carry an offensive weapon on public transport; but if the rifle's in a locked case, noone knows you have one because your right to privacy means that you can't be searched without good cause; so what the hell is the actual legal position of someone who gets on a bus with a rifle in a case? "You're grand unless you're caught"???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭Babble


    Thanks for the info gentlemen.
    Sparks that link is exactly what I was looking for. My jaw dropped when I read that article by Mr Burke, he cant seriously think the Irish situation is anything close to the US laws! And "Assault pistols soon to be available" is just pure unashamed sensationalism.

    Even in the armed forces and law enforcement departments all over the world your sidearm is a backup tool or defensive tool. Its only offensive in the hands of criminals.

    In canada there is nothing to stop you taking a firearm on public transport, even a restricted firearm is fine as long as its compliant with the regulations. I have a friend who was coming back from the range on the skytrain with his SKS and Baby Eagle 9mm in his back pack. There was some trouble on the train between two people who quickly got off the train.

    A few stops later the transit cops get on and make a beeline for my buddy whos carrying a long case with johnny Cash stickers on it. A long line of question follow somewhere along the lines of "What have you got there" answer "a case and a backpack" this goes on for a while.
    My friend explains that they have the wrong guy and it dosent matter if they think he has guns on him. After a while he heads on his way.

    I guess the point I'm making is shooters have a target on their back when it comes to trouble.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 144 ✭✭Flattop 15


    [
    QUOTE=Sparks]No, 'twas a Toz-35 .22lr single-shot olympic 50m pistol.

    OK Sparks I stand corrected again :o
    So, get friendly with your D.C. judges...

    COOOoooolll!!!!! :D:D:D my local DCJ is VERY impressed with me and my investigative work re fly dumpers and other such. :D:D .Guess my Barrett 50 lic should be in the post by Xmas.

    Been wondering about that of late. It's against the Road Traffic Act to carry an offensive weapon on public transport; but if the rifle's in a locked case, noone knows you have one because your right to privacy means that you can't be searched without good cause; so what the hell is the actual legal position of someone who gets on a bus with a rifle in a case? "You're grand unless you're caught"???
    [/QUOTE]

    They will proably get you under "proable cause" It is a question the same about your vechicle,is it a private area of yours in a public place?The gaurds do have the INMHO illegal,unconstitutional and EU rights to search and sieze your vechicle and contents without a warrent,under the proable cause factor.


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