Creation V Evolution Debate

[Danno]

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=224944

Just spent the last week or so following this thread. It really gets going on page 3.

I think that it is a very good read.

Your thoughts...

[Excelsior]

It is a topic of particular interest to me. I am an orthodox Christian who could easily be classified as straight down the line evangelical. Yet I accept the fact of evolution as the process of change within species and I firmly believe the modern theory of evolution (a genetics-based theory amalgamating Darwin's Natural Selection with Gould's Punctuated Equilibrium and many other contributions from a vast number of fields) to be (while still a work in progress) an accurate account of how the world works.

Genesis 1 does not contradict this. It is written as an allegory for an unscientific age. It is, I believe, foolishness to pass it off as empirical fact. It is ignorance, I believe, that leads people on the opposite side of the fence to discard it as effectively worthless because it does not claim to be a scientific description of the world.

In terms of the thread, I am saddened by Creationists who so often seem to be withdrawing from non-Scriptural Truth. I believe (and feel I am supported in Scripture both in the Psalms and in Romans 1) that all truth is a gift from God and that a Christian is called to hunger and thirst for truth.

Equally, I am saddened by many of the skeptics who seem to confuse skepticism with cockiness and who display an alarming ignorance of Christian theology, biblical criticism and the history of ideas. If I had a euro for everytime someone discarded Scripture with "half of it contradicts the other half" or "the church rewrote it whenever it suited them".

I might shut this thread down Danno since I don't know how much relevance it has. If people don't take your bait and express opinions, would you mind me putting it out of its misery?

[Danno]

Oh please don't shut this thread down!!!

It is a fundamental issue to everybody, whether we were created or whether we evolved.

If you accept "evolve" then in effect one is dismissing God and calling him a liar.

If you accept "created" then one is accepting God as creator, and calling him a truthful source.

[bus77]

Carried on from, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=235658

Originally Posted by Danno

And dearest "Bus77" I find the evolutionsist concept of Ape to Man equally offensive!

"Life to/in/around Man" would be my general assesment of the various evoulutionary studies. ''Ape to man'' is the poster on the wall. I may be nit-picking your words here, but this seems to be one of the main sticking points. You may think of other creatures as being lower on the scale of importance in life. This to me is offensive.

Originally Posted by Danno

For a body of study that teaches Apes (Animals) and Man as equals is de-meaning and goes against the Bible teachings.

I can sort of get my head around this, if the point behind it is "I dont want posters on the wall, or proposed theorys, interfearing with my childs chance of "wonder" about the world and preparation of faith for life".
For me, I was left out of any sort of religion. I would however, call myself a ''faithfull'' man. I also heard the word evolution, but never took it to meen any sort of explanation of "creation". In all honesty, It seems that some people arguing about this issue, did. And are ascribing their mistake to others.

[Danno]

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...&context=verse

Genesis 1:26 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

I take the above passage as being over animals on the scheme of things! Evolution IMO teaches that animals (apes) being our ancestors therefore being equal.

[fradiavolo]

Bus77,
You call yourself a "faithful" man. Faithful to what/whom? As regards Danno regarding other creatures as being lower on the scale of importance in life...well I agree with him in total. Are you going to tell me that a spider is as important as a human being??? What about a dog? Is a dog as important as a human being? I for one say no way...yet I love dogs and believe that they should be treated with kindness. If you want to know what would happen to a nation that decides to give equal importance to animals then just go to India. The sacred "Cow" seemingly has more rights there that a human...and look at their economy?
Me personally, I believe in God (note...not a God). I believe that the bible is his word. I also believe that evolution is a blooming joke!!! I have read so much about evolution these last 12 years...it is rubbish. I have also read so much on creation and the proofs of a literal 6-day creation...that I believe it to be true. I have listened to numerous debates between "creationists" and "evolutionists". There is only one winner...period .

Life did not happen by chance and one day everyone will find out the truth. It will be horrible if one finds oneself on the wrong side of the cross for eternity .

Fradiavolo.

Originally Posted by bus77

Carried on from, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=235658

"Life to/in/around Man" would be my general assesment of the various evoulutionary studies. ''Ape to man'' is the poster on the wall. I may be nit-picking your words here, but this seems to be one of the main sticking points. You may think of other creatures as being lower on the scale of importance in life. This to me is offensive.



I can sort of get my head around this, if the point behind it is "I dont want posters on the wall, or proposed theorys, interfearing with my childs chance of "wonder" about the world and preparation of faith for life".
For me, I was left out of any sort of religion. I would however, call myself a ''faithfull'' man. I also heard the word evolution, but never took it to meen any sort of explanation of "creation". In all honesty, It seems that some people arguing about this issue, did. And are ascribing their mistake to others.

[bus77]

Originally Posted by Danno

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...&context=verse

Genesis 1:26 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

I take the above passage as being over animals on the scheme of things!

That seems to be the plan alright. He dos'nt say "turn your nose up at my creatures though"

Originally Posted by Danno

Evolution IMO teaches that animals (apes) being our ancestors therefore being equal.

I just look at it as life is our ancestor, our present, and our future.

[Danno]

Of course, being masters of the animal kingdom means that we are kind compassionate to them, just like an employee of a company, care of goods, other workers etc...!

QUOTE: "I just look at it as life is our ancestor, our present, and our future."

That is vague! Can you elaborate further!

[bus77]

Originally Posted by fradiavolo

Bus77,
You call yourself a "faithful" man.

I say it, and I meen it.

Originally Posted by fradiavolo

Faithful to what/whom?

Faithfull in spirit.

Originally Posted by fradiavolo

As regards Danno regarding other creatures as being lower on the scale of importance in life...well I agree with him in total. Are you going to tell me that a spider is as important as a human being??? What about a dog? Is a dog as important as a human being?

In life everything is important. Try removing plants from life and see how far you get. Try removing other creatures from fertalising the plants. Try removing dogs and see how lonely youd get.

Originally Posted by fradiavolo

I for one say no way...yet I love dogs and believe that they should be treated with kindness. If you want to know what would happen to a nation that decides to give equal importance to animals then just go to India. The sacred "Cow" seemingly has more rights there that a human...and look at their economy?

Your trying to tell me how nations work now is it?

Originally Posted by fradiavolo

Me personally, I believe in God (note...not a God). I believe that the bible is his word. I also believe that evolution is a blooming joke!!! I have read so much about evolution these last 12 years...it is rubbish. I have also read so much on creation and the proofs of a literal 6-day creation...that I believe it to be true. I have listened to numerous debates between "creationists" and "evolutionists". There is only one winner...period .
Life did not happen by chance and one day everyone will find out the truth. It will be horrible if one finds oneself on the wrong side of the cross for eternity .

Fradiavolo.

I belive in God aswell. I however belive he is "on my side". Not "On my back".

[bus77]

Originally Posted by Danno

Of course, being masters of the animal kingdom means that we are kind compassionate to them, just like an employee of a company, care of goods, other workers etc...!

In all the companys I've worked in. The boss was useually related to a fair number of the employees

QUOTE: "I just look at it as life is our ancestor, our present, and our future."

Originally Posted by Danno

That is vague! Can you elaborate further!

If I tried to elaborate futher, I would be an ''evolutionist" in your eyes.

[Poisonwood]

Originally Posted by Danno

If you accept "evolve" then in effect one is dismissing God and calling him a liar.

If you accept "created" then one is accepting God as creator, and calling him a truthful source.

Excuse me? Have you never heard of Theistic Evolution as outlined by this forum's moderator? Don't tar all Christians with your particular fundamentalist brush please!!

[Danno]

Originally Posted by Poisonwood

Excuse me? Have you never heard of Theistic Evolution as outlined by this forum's moderator? Don't tar all Christians with your particular fundamentalist brush please!!

Show me where the Thestic Evolution fits in perfectly with the Bible???

[Excelsior]

Danno, my good man, you will surely agree that while Scripture was divinely inspired as originally given and is of supreme authority (for Christians), your interpretation is neither infallible, inerrant or perfect.

Your literalist inrepretation was not shared by church fathers, who long before the rise of empiricism, never mind the modern theory of evolution, believed Genesis 1 & 2 to be allegorical myth. These are the church fathers who can cite actual apostolic succession. Their testimony cannot be discarded.

The general thrust of their testimony supports the fact that your interpretation of Geneis is a modern phenomenon. Creation science owes a lot more to the Scopes Trial than it does to a serious engagement with Scripture.

Genesis 1 is not meant as a scientific account of creation. It is allegory. This does not in any way make it less true. There are a great deal of ways to represent truth besides the scientific method. As such, and with the citation I already gave from Romans 1 and the many words in the Psalms that relate to this issue, I believe that the position:
"God is the Creator. Evolution is a method He used."
is perfectly "Biblical" (to use a meaninglessly vague term).

[Danno]

Originally Posted by Excelsior

"God is the Creator. Evolution is a method He used."
is perfectly "Biblical" (to use a meaninglessly vague term).

Show me where it is perfectly Biblical to take this stance...

[Excelsior]

Romans 1:19&20- "what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

We are sanctioned to study and examine and observe for all truth is a gift of grace from God. To deny this would take some dogmatism since you are making an idol that isn't even attractive.

The creation tale in Genesis 1, as I have already said elsewhere in this thread, is a poem. This does not in any way make it less true. It just means that the truth comes in a different form than you, as a result of nothing more than your place in time and civilisation, would like it to be.

The early Christians did not hold to it as either literally true or otherwise false. They took a middle line that held that regardless of its literal worth, Genesis 1 does not intend to tell us about the mechanism of creation but about the over-arching source behind creation.

The structure of the chapter is clearly poetic. Sources suggest that it was around as a verbal tradition up to 3000 years before it was written down. Its phrasing is poetic not literal. There can be no day without light and yet the term day is used before light...

Look, all the mainline Protestant traditions, the RC Church and a great deal more Christians; evangelicals, orthodox, traditional and liberal hold the view of a Creating God who utilises evolution. There is nothing contradictory whatsoever in this view.