Irish - Time to go?

Undercoverguy · 16-03-2005 12:04am #1

Todays the News eastmated that over 500 Million of Taxpayers money was "Wasted" on teaching Irish in our schools each year.
Is it time to get rid of Irish?

Population of Lenister: 1775827
Non-Irish Speaking: 1,264,188
Irish Speaking: 511,639

Percentage speaking Irish: 24.81130875%
Percentage not able to speak Irish: 71.188691240%

Amount of hours spent in School learning Irish on Adverage: 1441
Roughly: 60 Days Nonstop!

Hugh Hefner · 16-03-2005 12:26am

Aww man, I'm really passionate about this subject. That is, the subject of getting Irish made optional not the actual subject of Irish.

I've been doing Irish since 1st class like most Irish people and for some reason it's the only subject I can't get a hold of. It's the only one I'm doing Ordinary Level in for my JC in June. I have a good chance of getting 8 As in my JC but I'll be happy if I don't fail Ordinary Level Irish.

It's not because it's a language either. Languages may not be my strongest suit but I'm a 78% - 90% student in English, French and Greek (of the ancient variety). Irish just doesn't click with me and is so illogical (for me anyway). Maybe it's becasue I got bored and annoyed with it so long ago. 1st class I think it was.

[EDIT]Linoge, don't speak to me like that... ever... again.[/EDIT]

kleefarr · 16-03-2005 12:30am

:eek: Feck hell thats a lot of wasted money. I think may be it needs to be sudsidised by the people that want to learn it. What you need to bare in mind is, however beautiful it is to speak your own native language, if most of the natives don't know it are taught it and don't pick it up it's completely pointless, not like learning spanish or something. How many other countries speak Irish?

aidan_walsh · 16-03-2005 12:34am

Does it really mean its pointless? Maybe it just means we've been going about it the wrong way all this time... Perhaps the planned reform of Irish in the education system is just whats needed?

spunkymunky · 16-03-2005 12:39am

There doesnt seem to be a place for it in society. Look at every other country. They have there own language then english second. I dont think any reform will help. Its not spoken every day so people dont want to know about it.

scoby · 16-03-2005 12:45am

I would have been happier learning irish if i had learned how to speak it in day-to-day life
rather than learning how to answer questions on dead irish poets in the leaving...

11 years learning the thing and we still can't speak it, my french and german were miles better when I left school I spent less time studying them :mad:

Sleepy · 16-03-2005 1:21am

I'd rather have learnt latin tbh.

In my opinion it's a complete waste of time but I know a lot of people feel strongly about it so I don't ever see it being completely scrapped in schools. I'd love to see it made an optional subject and removed from the job requirements for state positions etc.

I recently had to waste about a week of my time applying a translation to a system in work that had to be bilingual purely because of that stupid law the government passed a couple of years ago. No one will ever see it, but it was a statutory requirement for the system in question. :rolleyes:

Irish possibly has some cultural value, but I don't think it's any more important than history (in fact I'd consider it a historical language, i.e. best left in the past). The only use the average Irish person has for it is to communicate in private whilst abroad and that's a pretty poor reason to spend an average of 1441 hours learning.

Drivers Ed, Sex Ed, Proper PE, Health Education, Social Awareness, Politics and Philosophy would all be better uses of this time imho.

Swaneck · 16-03-2005 9:31am

I heard recently that more people in Ireland speak various forms of Chinese then Irish.

Celticwarrior · 16-03-2005 9:47am

I used to be like that when i was in secondary school, i hated learning it, so boring etc. But i went to college and did a diploma in Irish alongside my other studies, and it's much more enjoyable when you get to discuss current affairs, sport etc, in just a spoken style, it was much more relaxed.
In my opinion, the way its taught is just outdated thats all.
I mean when you learn French in Secondary school, you don't do poems, or short stories or any of that. You discuss real life etc, a bit more interesting, you don't have to do any stuipid analysis of whats gong on in the poet, or story tellers heads.
I think a more relevant way of learning Irish is needed. I mean teaching that course must bore Irish teachers rigid.

bringitdown · 16-03-2005 9:54am

I would originally have come from the "get rid of it" camp but actually as I visit places abroad it is always nice to have the cupla focal ready when discussing something in the presence of a stranger not to mention when in the few surviving Gaeltacht. I felt like an idiot the first until my brain started to churn up some old memories.

Now I am generalising but I think to older you get then maybe the more you look back at your school days and go:

Those teachers WERE just trying to help me.

I do agree that Irish is/was shoved down your throat but I believe there is a different approach now in primary school which I welcome but further reforms are needed in secondary. You should want to study Irish, want to learn about your countries history and culture rather than view it as a pain in the arse subject that you hate.

Time to get rid of Irish - absolutely NOT.
In summary then - bllllllleeeeeeeeaaaaaaa.

the_syco · 16-03-2005 9:55am

doodle_sketch wrote:

Does it really mean its pointless? Maybe it just means we've been going about it the wrong way all this time... Perhaps the planned reform of Irish in the education system is just whats needed?

Celticwarrior wrote:

In my opinion, the way its taught is just outdated thats all.
I mean when you learn French in Secondary school, you don't do poems, or short stories or any of that. You discuss real life etc, a bit more interesting, you don't have to do any stuipid analysis of whats gong on in the poet, or story tellers heads.
I think a more relevant way of learning Irish is needed. I mean teaching that course must bore Irish teachers rigid.

I agree. Its not the Irish, but the way its been taught. From an early age, its shoved into you. I think they shouldn't teach it to you untill 3rd class, primary school, so that you may have a clue whats going on. Who "got it" in their first year of school? I know a bare smattering of French, but I'd understand it more than Irish, which IMO is not good.
Also to change the way French is being taught, I'd say there's less red tape to go through, then if you wanted to change the way Irish was being taught.

[edit]
I wonder is there a way fopr me to learn it, now? Some open ended system? I'd like to learn it, but not in the way that I learned it 18 years ago.
[/edit]

Swaneck · 16-03-2005 10:38am

I just don't buy the argument about Irish being great it is just that is taught badly.

The reason why students don't learn Irish is that there is no point. They see that Irish has no economic value in their life after they leave school/college.

When a student realizes this fact they decide to quietly drop the subject and concentrate on subjects that they might actually use later on in life.

The Irish state has spent billons of euros and billions of man hours over the course of 85 years trying to teach students this subject. Irish failed as a language because of harsh Economic realities i.e. the ruling class did not speak the language. That is still the case today in that English is the language of business.

We should just accept that it was a complete waste of time and move on.

magpie · 16-03-2005 10:44am

The Irish that's taught in schools is an artificial construct created in the 19th Century by the 'elite' of the Cultural Nationalist movement. It bears very little relation to any living language and its primary purpose was to differentiate Ireland from England culturally as the basis of a move towards independence. In the 1930s it was enshrined in the school curriculum by De Valera as a bastion against counter-revolutionary thoughts entering the heads of schoolchildren who were to be brought up on a strict diet of Celtic Mysticism and bowdlerised history to ensure they understood that Ireland=Good and England=Evil.

Times have moved on, we're independent and confident. Let those who want to learn Irish do so, let those who want to meet up and use the language do so. Stop wasting tax payers money and schoolkids time on an artificial language that no longer has any political expediency. Apart, of course, from those who learned it in 'Long Kesh', who seem to be its primary exponents these days.

Sleepy · 16-03-2005 11:09am

magpie wrote:

The Irish that's taught in schools is an artificial construct created in the 19th Century by the 'elite' of the Cultural Nationalist movement. It bears very little relation to any living language and its primary purpose was to differentiate Ireland from England culturally as the basis of a move towards independence. In the 1930s it was enshrined in the school curriculum by De Valera as a bastion against counter-revolutionary thoughts entering the heads of schoolchildren who were to be brought up on a strict diet of Celtic Mysticism and bowdlerised history to ensure they understood that Ireland=Good and England=Evil.

Times have moved on, we're independent and confident. Let those who want to learn Irish do so, let those who want to meet up and use the language do so. Stop wasting tax payers money and schoolkids time on an artificial language that no longer has any political expediency. Apart, of course, from those who learned it in 'Long Kesh', who seem to be its primary exponents these days.

hear hear

Zulu · 16-03-2005 11:19am

I am very proud that I can speak Irish.

Sleepy · 16-03-2005 11:38am

Do you believe it should be forced on every student in the country at the expense of their overall education though Zulu?

Wibbs · 16-03-2005 11:40am

Definitely optional. With a lot of Irish speakers it's more a state of mind and political identity than a language. I've also found many who speak it, make a point of speaking it around Irish people that they know can't. It can smack of exclusion rather than inclusion.

It can also get all a bit silly. The recent diktat from Eamon O Cuív and his Gaelbureau biddies regarding the place name changes was a good example. In future in the Gaeltacht, the English version is no longer legally recognised and can't be used on any road and street signs or on Ordnance Survey Maps. So ya better not call it Dingle anymore. I don't see why the majority of tax payers should have to subsidise this kind of idiocy.

If you do speak it, fine. Good for you. If it's meant to survive it will. I suspect with the way the internet and global communications are going, most if not all minority languages will most likely be dead in a few hundred years.

Blisterman · 16-03-2005 11:47am

Its not even a good sounding language. Its very harsh sounding. I say get rid of it.

abccormac · 16-03-2005 11:47am

I wonder is there a way fopr me to learn it, now? Some open ended system? I'd like to learn it, but not in the way that I learned it 18 years ago.

You can get a set of cds with a book called turas teanga. It was produced by tg4 to accompany a tv series of the same name. You'd be surprised at how quickly it comes back yo you, I know I was!

They see that Irish has no economic value in their life after they leave school/college.

Neither does history or english literature or art or music or sport, etc etc. Should we stop teaching those subjects aswell?

magpie · 16-03-2005 11:54am

Neither does history or english literature or art or music or sport, etc etc. Should we stop teaching those subjects aswell?

History: teaches the ability to produce a reasoned argument based on evidence - useful for any profession where logic/proof are required. Also a knowledge of history is in of itself very important.

English Lit: teaches a love of our primary language and fosters a habit of reading which can be a lifelong hobby positively enriching most people's lives

Art Encourages use of a different part of the brain to other subjects, leads to more rounded, expressive, creative personality. Why else do you think its a key part of many therapies? School isn't just for exams

Sport Mens Sana in Corpore Sano - fitness leads to greater capacity for learning, greater concentration and also fosters lifelong healthy exercise patterns

bringitdown · 16-03-2005 11:56am

abccormac wrote:

You can get a set of cds with a book called turas teanga.

Featuring Sharon Ní Bheoláin, she is the whole Irish debate Q.E.D.

Wibbs wrote:

It can smack of exclusion rather than inclusion.

Yes this is a major problem I have with recent policy / decisions, they are supposed to help preserve Irish but I think they are actually not helping at all. The requirement to have Irish to purchase a house in the Gaeltacth for example.

magpie · 16-03-2005 12:00pm

A Chara

Actually, now I come to think about it there are economic reasons for individuals to learn Irish.

1) You can stroll into a job in RTE, as this seems to be the only qualification they care about

2) You can get a job in An Serbhis Civiliachta (or whatever its called) for the same reason as above.

Le Dhea Mhein

An Magpie

Sleepy · 16-03-2005 12:02pm

magpie wrote:

History: teaches the ability to produce a reasoned argument based on evidence - useful for any profession where logic/proof are required. Also a knowledge of history is in of itself very important.

English Lit: teaches a love of our primary language and fosters a habit of reading which can be a lifelong hobby positively enriching most people's lives

Art Encourages use of a different part of the brain to other subjects, leads to more rounded, expressive, creative personality. Why else do you think its a key part of many therapies? School isn't just for exams

Sport Mens Sana in Corpore Sano - fitness leads to greater capacity for learning, greater concentration and also fosters lifelong healthy exercise patterns

English literature also teaches one how to write properly. In nearly every profession in the modern world you will have to write emails, letters, memos, documentation, etc. and studying English teaches you how to do this well. Some boards.ie users could also take note that it's important to write with proper grammar on-line

Sleepy · 16-03-2005 12:04pm

magpie wrote:

A Chara

Actually, now I come to think about it there are economic reasons for individuals to learn Irish.

1) You can stroll into a job in RTE, as this seems to be the only qualification they care about

2) You can get a job in An Serbhis Civiliachta (or whatever its called) for the same reason as above.

Le Dhea Mhein

An Magpie

Nope, not economic reasons, artificial job requirements put in place in a pretty lame attempt to "resurect" a dead language. Most people I know that have to pass Irish exams for civil service positions etc couldn't hold a conversation "as Gaeilge" to save their lives.

abccormac · 16-03-2005 12:05pm

knowledge of history is in of itself very important.

If we can teach history for the sake of knowledge, why not Irish?It is a much more tangible part of our history than the famine or 1916 as far as I am concerned

teaches a love of our primary language and fosters a habit of reading which can be a lifelong hobby positively enriching most people's lives

Could you not say the same about Irish?

School isn't just for exams

Exactly, the whole economic argument is a bit of a red herring. Irish is a part of who we are and it would be a tragedy to see it dissappear. I can see where people are coming from with regards to changing the course to be more oriented towards conversational Irish, making it more similar to the way modern languages are taught but getting rid of it altogether would be a mistake as far as I am concerned.

those who learned it in 'Long Kesh', who seem to be its primary exponents these days.

No need for insults.

magpie · 16-03-2005 12:07pm

Nope, not economic reasons, artificial job requirements put in place in a pretty lame attempt to "resurect" a dead language. Most people I know that have to pass Irish exams for civil service positions etc couldn't hold a conversation "as Gaeilge" to save their lives.

True. I meant more economic from the individual's perspective.

They should really get rid of the Irish requirement from the Legal Profession too. Perhaps they could do it as part of smashing their self-perpetuating cartel?

It is a much more tangible part of our history than the famine or 1916 as far as I am concerned

True, but that's more to do with the History that is taught in Irish Schools under curricula set up by FF in the 30s for the same reasons that Irish was made compulsory. I'd like to see a major overhaul of the way History is taught in Irish Schools. For starters actually teaching history rather than stringing together a series of minor uprisings into a predestined justification for 1916 and all that followed would be nice. What passes for the history syllabus is actually just outdated Republican propaganda.

abccormac · 16-03-2005 12:07pm

English literature also teaches one how to write properly.

No, thats grammar. Literature would include the likes of poetry, shakespeare etc.

magpie · 16-03-2005 12:12pm

No, thats grammar. Literature would include the likes of poetry, shakespeare etc.

Thanks for the clarification. I suspect what Sleepy was implying was that exposure to the great writers might result in better use of written English, or at least sufficient interest to pay some attention to your spelling, syntax and grammar.

Zulu · 16-03-2005 12:14pm

Sleepy wrote:

Do you believe it should be forced on every student in the country at the expense of their overall education though Zulu?

Personally, yes I do believe that. Perhaps only to Junior Cert though. I think the current system is fair enough. Exemptions for those out of the country etc..

I was very very poor at Irish in primary school, but went to an All-Irish school for a year, and ended up being fluent by default. I still can't write it for nuts, but I can speak it. So I can understand both sides of the argument.

It's funny: language is an art form, thus Irish is just a branch of that. No-one objects to studying Irish Art, but everyone complains about the Irish Language. Everyone ends up doing some subjects they don't like, that's life. we do need to look at why it's soooo unpopular though. People don't complain half as much about French etc..

Wibbs wrote:

I've also found many who speak it, make a point of speaking it around Irish people that they know can't. It can smack of exclusion rather than inclusion.

I've never experienced that - EVER. Are you sure you aren't just a little paranoid? or do you expect people to change language as soon as you walk into the room?

Blisterman wrote:

Its not even a good sounding language. Its very harsh sounding. I say get rid of it.

That's completely subjective, and a little ignorant methinks. I've studied the language and it's extremely poetic. It's a beautiful language. ...but I suppose if you want to get rid of a language because of how it sounds to you - that says more about you than anything else.

Wibbs · 16-03-2005 12:49pm

Zulu wrote:

I've never experienced that - EVER. Are you sure you aren't just a little paranoid? or do you expect people to change language as soon as you walk into the room?

No Zulu, Ii's honestly not paranoia(the medication's working fine now tnx for askin

). I (and others I know) have experienced that on numerous occasions. I was having this very discussion with a few mates over the Christmas(some of whom are irish speakers) and most of the non Irish speakers had the same experience.

It's not the changing language when you walk into a room that's at issue. It's when they find out you can't speak Irish and they intersperse the conversation with Irish as if you were the foreigner that's the problem.To be fair I found this tendency more in recent converts to the whole "Irish is our heritage" types. The fluent from birth people are less likely to do it.

Surely poetry in a language is an art form, not the language itself. Comparing Irish art and the language itself is a bit of a leap IMHO. For a start it requires no fore knowledge to appreciate an art work as the best speak for themselves. A language by definition requires fluency before it can be appreciated.

There may be less antagonism towards French because for a start it's a useful language beyond our shores and carries little of the cultural baggage to be found in Irish

Stark · 16-03-2005 12:52pm

The syllabus needs to be changed. Irish was by far the hardest subject on the Leaving Cert when I did my Leaving Cert. There needs to be less emphasis on learning off reams of stories and poems and more emphasis on the language itself. I actually enjoyed the oral exam.

Irish - Time to go?

What should we do with Irish in our schools? 132 votes

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