Over 21's policy of Pubs and nightclubs

pigeonbutler · 26-02-2005 3:38am #1

Hey,

I'm curious as to whether anyone has any experience or knowledge of using the Provisions of the Equal Status Act against licensed premises which have age-discriminatory door policies?

In general discrimination based on age in the provision of goods and services is illegal. However the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003 gives a limited dispensation to publicans.

That reads:
If—

(a) the holder of a licence or other authorisation which permits the sale of intoxicating liquor adopts a policy of refusing to supply intoxicating liquor to any person below a specified age which exceeds 18 years,

(b) a notice setting out the policy is displayed in a conspicuous place in or on the exterior of the premises, and

(c) the policy is implemented in good faith,

a refusal to serve intoxicating liquor to such a person shall not constitute discrimination on the age ground.

I'm considering taking action against a number of Dublin premises which fail to have signs displaying their policy or which fail to operate it in good faith. If it transpires I don't have much of a case I'll wait until next September and object to their licences when they come up for renewal next September.

mayordenis · 26-02-2005 4:45am

i like it,
as much as they may have some reasons for these policies they can also go **** themselves,
there a reason why we are aloud to drink at 18 im not sure exactly what that is but there is a reason i assure you of that.

deevey · 26-02-2005 5:10am

there a reason why we are aloud to drink at 18 im not sure exactly what that is but there is a reason i assure you of that.

Yup... the millions in booze tax that the govenment make each year by the 18-21 year old drinking population .... nuff reason to do anything in this country :rolleyes:

herobear · 26-02-2005 5:13am

if they wont accept your patronage then they dont deserve it, theres plenty of pubs,clubs and bars that treat their patrons with respect...they deserve your business.

Suaimhneach · 26-02-2005 6:13am

There is no over 21s bars in Dublin. There are bars, that use "over 21's" as an excuse to not let you, and me, and many like and unlike us out of their bars.

It is a sad, and true fact taht you will not get anywhere with that legal battle, as fantastic as it would sound to win, because of the corrupt, and I will not list the reasons why, government we have in power.

Tbh, I recommend drinking somewhere where you are likely to meet nicer people, with better music and kinder bouncers.

joe. · 26-02-2005 7:22am

They can have an over 21s policy but there must be sign saying so. Also as soon as they allow someone admittance that is not over 21 they are breaking the law.

breadmonkey · 26-02-2005 9:57am

On a related note, my local off liscence recently started this over 21 bull****. I'm 19 now and have been getting my booze there at least once a week for over a year, and now all of a sudden I have to be +21?? Is this legal?

Infini · 26-02-2005 11:23am

This isn't the bloody US bible belt. For god's sake once your 18 your legally entitled to alcohol so I don't know where they're getting this over 21 crap from. Besides if they won't sell it to you go find someone that will. It's their loss.

Chonaic · 26-02-2005 11:26am

I say we name and shame the over 21 clubs: i can name a few...............................

kasintahan · 26-02-2005 12:42pm

Chonaic wrote:

I say we name and shame the over 21 clubs: i can name a few...............................

CLUBS - are private, can set up an age policy (like no under 21's or no over 40's).

PUBS (that have a public house licence only) - AFAIK can not have age policy ("proper" ID required though).
However many pubs have a club dance licence.

SHOPS/Off-Licences - AFAIK Cannot refuse you with "proper" ID.

"proper" ID is not set in law.

Dempsey · 26-02-2005 12:49pm

Chonaic wrote:

I say we name and shame the over 21 clubs: i can name a few...............................

Name and shame them

[Jackass] · 26-02-2005 12:52pm

kasintahan wrote:

"proper" ID is not set in law.

Passport, Full Driving licence or Garda age card.

Blisterman · 26-02-2005 1:26pm

kasintahan wrote:

SHOPS/Off-Licences - AFAIK Cannot refuse you with "proper" ID.

"proper" ID is not set in law.

They can if you're acting drunk. In fact they're supposed to.

steveland? · 26-02-2005 1:49pm

Ffs... up till about two years ago it was over 18s everywhere by law. When the new legislation like the acceptable forms of ID came in and the 11.30 closing on a Thursday came in the publicans gained the right to set the age limit themselves to over a certain age between 18 and 21 (it could be 18 to 23 I'm not sure) so long as they display it.

Most pubs will serve you if you're over 18, the signs are more of a deterrent and will only be used if they really really need an excuse to not serve someone (like those management reserves the right of admission signs)

I used to love giving the "Acceptable forms of identification" speech to people back when I was a barman... gave me a lovely feeling of power

But yeh if they want they're well within their rights to make their place over 21s... stop complaining

kasintahan wrote:

"proper" ID is not set in law.

Err... yes it is...

Garda ID, passport or drivers license are the only three "proper" forms of ID a bar can legally accept. If you're caught on the premesis after 9 (whether you're drinking or not) and all you have is a student ID or a usit or something you'll get done.

You also have to have acceptable ID on you at all times if you're between 18 and 21. Even if you're 20 and the barmen know you and you get caught you/the bar will be fined

kasintahan wrote:

SHOPS/Off-Licences - AFAIK Cannot refuse you with "proper" ID.

Err... yes they can..

These places can refuse you for whatever reason they want. As can a pub.

Chinafoot · 26-02-2005 2:06pm

I was having a smoke outside a pub that i used to frequent quite often a few months ago and a group of lads walked up. they were obviously over 18 but the bouncer said "sorry lads over 21s only", only one of them was 21 so they grumbled and left. i asked the bouncer was it really over 21s and he said "i'll let ya in on a little secret....i didn't like the look of them."
pretty bad form really, considering that these lads definitely weren't drunk and about 5 minutes later a bigger group of very drunk girls strolled right in without being asked for I.D. It all depends on the place i guess.

as for the off-licence thing......isn't there some law now that if you're under 21 you can only buy 8 cans or something? fair enough they want to stop underage drinking and maybe they reckon people in that age group are more likely to buy it for underage people, but at the end of the day the legal drinking age is 18, there shouldnt be ridiculous restrictions like that.

Dempsey · 26-02-2005 2:21pm

The law is being unfairly used

skywalker · 26-02-2005 2:37pm

DubGuy22 wrote:

Passport, Full Driving licence or Garda age card.

this is always something that bothered me when i was younger. why the difference between provisional and full drivers licence?

kasintahan · 26-02-2005 2:40pm

DubGuy22 wrote:

Passport, Full Driving licence or Garda age card.

The are obliged to accept none of the above, official or no.

kasintahan · 26-02-2005 2:43pm

Blisterman wrote:

They can if you're acting drunk. In fact they're supposed to.

Or if your discharging a firearm toward them at the time, or on fire, or covereded in antrax spores :rolleyes:

There are hundreds of reasons for refusing to enter a contract. But we are talking about ageism here.

kasintahan · 26-02-2005 2:48pm

steveland? wrote:

Garda ID, passport or drivers license are the only three "proper" forms of ID a bar can legally accept. If you're caught on the premesis after 9 (whether you're drinking or not) and all you have is a student ID or a usit or something you'll get done.

But acceptance is not an obligation.

steveland? wrote:

These places can refuse you for whatever reason they want. As can a pub.

No, no they cannot. Like they cannot refuse travellers for being travellers.
The have to give a reason for the refusal and that reason has to be legal.
However, a CLUB (as a private institution, unlike a shop/off-licence/pub) has the right to admit only members (that's what the entrace fee is, membership), this is thorny though.

Agent Smith · 26-02-2005 3:41pm

my local pub last night refused to serve to of the lads in our group, citeing over 21'ws lads....

needless to say, we sat there, and i bought 4 pints, and then proceeded to drink majic drinks ( ecksor will know what these are) the entire night....

stupid barmen`

toiletduck · 26-02-2005 4:05pm

recently i was going to buy 6 cans of beer in a supermarket off-license. i was asked to produce my ID. Upon the cashiers inspection of my Driving license, i was told that since im under 21 (im 19) i could only buy 4 cans at a time! I did a load of bitching but in the end,being assured it was legal by the cashier, i took my money elsewhere and wont be going back any time soon. Has this ever happened to anyone else?

steveland? · 26-02-2005 4:33pm

kasintahan wrote:

But acceptance is not an obligation.

When did I say they had to accept these? I said these are the only acceptable forms of ID...

kasintahan wrote:

No, no they cannot. Like they cannot refuse travellers for being travellers.
The have to give a reason for the refusal and that reason has to be legal.
However, a CLUB (as a private institution, unlike a shop/off-licence/pub) has the right to admit only members (that's what the entrace fee is, membership), this is thorny though.

They can say to people they have enough people inside wearing glasses if they so wished. They have the right to refuse whoever they please, and even if they get asked for a reason they can come up with some bs reason.

Tusky · 26-02-2005 4:36pm

peachypants wrote:

I was having a smoke outside a pub that i used to frequent quite often a few months ago and a group of lads walked up. they were obviously over 18 but the bouncer said "sorry lads over 21s only", only one of them was 21 so they grumbled and left. i asked the bouncer was it really over 21s and he said "i'll let ya in on a little secret....i didn't like the look of them."
pretty bad form really, considering that these lads definitely weren't drunk and about 5 minutes later a bigger group of very drunk girls strolled right in without being asked for I.D. It all depends on the place i guess.

as for the off-licence thing......isn't there some law now that if you're under 21 you can only buy 8 cans or something? fair enough they want to stop underage drinking and maybe they reckon people in that age group are more likely to buy it for underage people, but at the end of the day the legal drinking age is 18, there shouldnt be ridiculous restrictions like that.

What pub was this ?

pigeonbutler · 26-02-2005 7:40pm

Jesjes wrote:

It is a sad, and true fact taht you will not get anywhere with that legal battle, as fantastic as it would sound to win, because of the corrupt, and I will not list the reasons why, government we have in power.

You're showing your ignorance with that comment. If I was to take a legal action it would obiously be through the courts which is the Judicial branch of the State. The Government is the Executive branch and the two are constitionally barred from interfering from each others work. And besides I completely refute your allegation that we have a "corrupt" government. If you want to accuse any policitician of corruption at least have the neck to be specific in naming them and the details of your allegation so they can refute it.

kasintahan wrote:

CLUBS - are private, can set up an age policy (like no under 21's or no over 40's).

PUBS (that have a public house licence only) - AFAIK can not have age policy ("proper" ID required though).
However many pubs have a club dance licence.

SHOPS/Off-Licences - AFAIK Cannot refuse you with "proper" ID.

"proper" ID is not set in law.

What are commonly described as "Clubs" by the public e.g. Spirit, Red Box, Bondi Beach etc. are as far as the law is concerned exactly the same as pubs except that they have extensions on the times they may serve alcohol and they have public dancing licences. They have no more of a right to discriminate than any other seller of goods or services.
All premises have a right to refuse whoever they like, but they cannot do it on a discriminatory basis, i.e. based on race, marital status, age (as long as you're over 18), sexual orientation, disability, etc.

steveland? wrote:

But yeh if they want they're well within their rights to make their place over 21s... stop complaining

They are well within their rights as long as they have a sign and implement it in good faith. Do try and keep up by reading the thread from the start!

steveland? wrote:

They can say to people they have enough people inside wearing glasses if they so wished. They have the right to refuse whoever they please, and even if they get asked for a reason they can come up with some bs reason.

I'd imagine saying there are too many people wearing glasses inside would be a discrimination based on disability! I also acknowledge that BS reasons or no reason e.g. "Not tonight, lads" are perfectly legal and cannot be challenged at all.

Finally there is absolutely no legal restriction on Under-21s buying max amounts of cans. I've often walked into my local tesco and bought 24boxes of beer and I'm only 18!! However I'd imagine there is also no prohibition on an off-licence doing this if they so wish ....(and are stupid enough to want to reduce their turnover unneccesarily) The only reason I can imagine and offie doing this would be if you went in to buy 24 cans and 6 nagins, were 18 only a few days ago and had 4or5 of your mates standing nervously outside afraid to come because they were underage.

steveland? · 26-02-2005 8:02pm

pigeonbutler wrote:

They are well within their rights as long as they have a sign and implement it in good faith. Do try and keep up by reading the thread from the start!

steveland? wrote:

the publicans gained the right to set the age limit themselves to over a certain age between 18 and 21 (it could be 18 to 23 I'm not sure) so long as they display it.

See where I mentioned it there?

Do try and read my posts

Over 21's policy of Pubs and nightclubs

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