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Second most expensive public transport city on earth - Dublin

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  • 05-05-2017 6:00am
    #1
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39806865

    Has anyone seen the attached? A Deutsche Bank report which puts Dublin behind London as the second most expensive city on earth for a monthly travel ticket.

    I don't think the report, or at least the headline, takes tax saver into account so it is a bit misleading, but it's surprising to see it up there, given the general agreement that Dublin public transport is extremely limited.

    Also of note is Dublin's taxis. More expensive than London, Frankfurt, New York or Paris.


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    #2
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    It's odd. All my London mates complain about the tube etc and it is excessively expensive but I always tell them come to Dublin and see how crap ours is and how utterly overpriced. As well as unreliable.

    Not surprised to see Dublin in that ranking at all. A cost/efficiency scale would be even more appalling though.


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    #3
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Too many cars on the road (unsurprising with all the free public service parking), and so it's virtually impossible to run a cheap, efficient mass public transport system.


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    #4
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    Terrontress wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39806865


    I don't think the report, or at least the headline, takes tax saver into account so it is a bit misleading, but it's surprising to see it up there, given the general agreement that Dublin public transport is extremely limited.
    Not everyone can claim tax relief at the higher rate, or at all in some cases.

    So I think it is correct to quote the headline price.


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    #5
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,092 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Dublin weekly/monthly passes are very pricey.


    Nurnberg = metro, tram, bus

    http://www.vgn.de/preise/

    Day pass = 7.90 for entire city and suburbs, 11.90 for a small group of people

    Entire weekend, 2 days, for the same prices

    Monthly pass = 76-86 euro

    Annual pass = 58.40 per month


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    #6
    BlinkingLights
    Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    Well we won't pay to subsidise it, so what do you expect?


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    #7
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    Brussels is about the same size as Dublin

    Annual ticket is €583 and includes metro, bus, tram and suburban rail services.
    It is also completely clear and needs just one click from the regional transport authority's homepage.


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    #8
    dinky earnshaw
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭dinky earnshaw


    Terrontress wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39806865

    Also of note is Dublin's taxis. More expensive than London, Frankfurt, New York or Paris.

    For a 5 mile journey midweek in business hours. I wonder how big the sample size of journeys are.
    The 30 odd kms from Heathrow to central London costs about £90 the same distance in a Dublin taxi would be considerably less.


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    #9
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    dinky earnshaw wrote: »
    For a 5 mile journey midweek in business hours. I wonder how big the sample size of journeys are.
    The 30 odd kms from Heathrow to central London costs about £90 the same distance in a Dublin taxi would be considerably less.

    But taxis in Dublin used to have a weird practice - I don't know if this is still so - where a journey to a kilometre or so before Bray was reasonable, then the price shot up after you crossed the border just before Bray.


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    #10
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BlinkingLights wrote: »
    Well we won't pay to subsidise it, so what do you expect?

    But we do subsidise public transport here, very heavily!

    For instance Dublin Bus not only gets a direct subsidy, the NTA also buys and gives it for free all it's buses! And then their is the Free Travel Pass and Taxsaver scheme which are indirect subsidies. Oh and then there are all their depots and bus stations paid out of taxpayers money.

    All taken into account, we subsidise public transport to a similar level as most other EU countries.


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    #11
    BlinkingLights
    Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    bk wrote: »
    But we do subsidise public transport here, very heavily!

    For instance Dublin Bus not only gets a direct subsidy, the NTA also buys and gives it for free all it's buses! And then their is the Free Travel Pass and Taxsaver scheme which are indirect subsidies. Oh and then there are all their depots and bus stations paid out of taxpayers money.

    All taken into account, we subsidise public transport to a similar level as most other EU countries.

    There are plenty of reports that don't agree

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/ireland-has-lowest-subsidy-in-the-eu-for-public-transport-d%C3%A1il-hears-1.1393426?mode=amp

    Also it's a vicious circle : patchy, unreliable services result in a low expectation so people don't use the services. Then CIE concludes no demand exists and it depletes them further.


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    #12
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    BlinkingLights wrote: »
    There are plenty of reports that don't agree

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/ireland-has-lowest-subsidy-in-the-eu-for-public-transport-d%C3%A1il-hears-1.1393426?mode=amp

    Also it's a vicious circle : patchy, unreliable services result in a low expectation so people don't use the services. Then CIE concludes no demand exists and it depletes them further.

    Last year direct subsidy was 40m

    Bus eireann also got 50m of vehicles from the state.

    The other figures the socialist party compare Dublin with are higher because new vehicle purchase costs are worked in to the subsidy. Y

    In ireland it is additional. She's comparing apples with oranges.


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    #13
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BlinkingLights wrote: »
    Well we won't pay to subsidise it, so what do you expect?
    BlinkingLights wrote: »
    There are plenty of reports that don't agree

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/ireland-has-lowest-subsidy-in-the-eu-for-public-transport-d%C3%A1il-hears-1.1393426?mode=amp

    Also it's a vicious circle : patchy, unreliable services result in a low expectation so people don't use the services. Then CIE concludes no demand exists and it depletes them further.

    Those reports are nonsense and completely dishonest!

    In Ireland, the NTA buys the buses and coaches for PSO routes for DB and BE. They aren't included in the direct subsidy number, neither are the FTP paymetns or taxsaver allowance.

    Ireland is one of the few countries to do it that way. In other European countries, they receive a larger direct subsidy, but are then expected to buy their own buses and coaches out of that money, build their own depots and bus stations, offer reductions for monthly/annual tickets, OAPs, students, etc.

    You really aren't comparing like to like. If you tot up all the indirect subsidies that DB and BE get, in reality it ends up comparable to other EU countries.


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    #14
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,092 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Geuze wrote: »
    Dublin weekly/monthly passes are very pricey.

    Nurnberg = metro, tram, bus

    http://www.vgn.de/preise/

    Day pass = 7.90 for entire city and suburbs, 11.90 for a small group of people

    Entire weekend, 2 days, for the same prices

    Monthly pass = 76-86 euro

    Annual pass = 58.40 per month


    But, note that a single ticket is 3.00 in Nurnberg, with 1.60 for a short-trip.


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    #15
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Sorry I quoted bus eireann figures. Will post the Dublin Bus ones later.

    But the same principle applies that the state spends tens of millions every year on new vehicles that are not included in direct subsidy and as ireland is a small country overall direct subsidy in millions of euro is not at all a good measure


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    #16
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,226 ✭✭✭howiya


    bk wrote: »
    Those reports are nonsense and completely dishonest!

    In Ireland, the NTA buys the buses and coaches for PSO routes for DB and BE. They aren't included in the direct subsidy number, neither are the FTP paymetns or taxsaver allowance.

    Ireland is one of the few countries to do it that way. In other European countries, they receive a larger direct subsidy, but are then expected to buy their own buses and coaches out of that money, build their own depots and bus stations, offer reductions for monthly/annual tickets, OAPs, students, etc.

    You really aren't comparing like to like. If you tot up all the indirect subsidies that DB and BE get, in reality it ends up comparable to other EU countries.

    If the subsidies are comparable then why is public transport so expensive? There are only two other EU cities in the top ten. Seven EU cities (representing six countries) make the top 20.


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    #17
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Bray Head wrote: »
    Brussels is about the same size as Dublin

    I lived in Brussels and have to disagree. I could walk home from Brussels centre to the outskirts in around 40 mins... Dublin is far more spread out

    And as we know people are commuting longer distances here also.


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    #18
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    howiya wrote: »
    If the subsidies are comparable then why is public transport so expensive? There are only two other EU cities in the top ten. Seven EU cities (representing six countries) make the top 20.

    Because there isn't enough public transport for economies of scale, I'd guess; and the reason for that is that 40% of journeys under 4km in Ireland (a nice 20-minute cycle) are made by car. So the roads are full of single-passenger cars, and the buses and trams are held up. If more people took to the bike for short journeys, buses would zip through, there'd be more demand for buses, prices would go down… and so on.


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    #19
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,436 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Chuchote wrote: »
    40% of journeys under 4km in Ireland (a nice 20-minute cycle) are made by car.
    the figures i've seen are worse:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/more-than-half-of-travellers-use-cars-for-journeys-under-2km-1.2303451


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    #20
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the figures i've seen are worse:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/more-than-half-of-travellers-use-cars-for-journeys-under-2km-1.2303451

    (from 2015)
    More than half of travellers use cars for journeys under 2km
    Bicycle trips made up just 1.6% of all journeys last year


    #headdesk


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    #21
    ilovesmybrick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick


    Annual ticket for Vienna (which by population is only slightly larger than Dublin) is 365 quid, and around 45 for the month. Covers all buses, trains, ubhans and trams in the city. It's heavily subsidized but there's pretty much no need to have a car to get anywhere in the city (around 400 sq.Km).


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    #22
    I love Sean nos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭I love Sean nos


    bk wrote: »
    the Free Travel Pass
    Does Dublin Bus make money out of these?


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    #23
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    The Free Travel Scheme alone provides 11% of Dublin Bus Revenue, 20% of Bus Eireann Revenue, 8% of Irish Rail Revenue and 9% of Luas revenue.

    Until the recent decision to increase it's funding is put into effect you can knock 4% or so off that for the current 'de facto' subsidy those companies are giving FT because of the funding freeze during the crash years, but that's still a huge chunk on it's own.

    I would love to know what % Taxsaver is, or how much they save by having the NTA buy the busses etc

    Maybe we could stand to subsidize it more, I'd like to see more figures, but we are hardly skimping on them.

    Maybe..just maybe, it's similar a problem to the health service: that all the extra money given during the boom was sucked up by massively increased wages (especially premium payments) instead of actual service provision. We know BE's wages went up 90% during the boom, and didn't go down much during the crash.


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    #24
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    ilovesmybrick wrote: »
    Annual ticket for Vienna (which by population is only slightly larger than Dublin) is 365 quid, and around 45 for the month. Covers all buses, trains, ubhans and trams in the city. It's heavily subsidized but there's pretty much no need to have a car to get anywhere in the city (around 400 sq.Km).

    A euro a day!


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    #25
    ilovesmybrick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭ilovesmybrick


    Chuchote wrote: »
    ilovesmybrick wrote: »
    Annual ticket for Vienna (which by population is only slightly larger than Dublin) is 365 quid, and around 45 for the month. Covers all buses, trains, ubhans and trams in the city. It's heavily subsidized but there's pretty much no need to have a car to get anywhere in the city (around 400 sq.Km).

    A euro a day!
    That's their selling point!


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    #26
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    The Free Travel Scheme alone provides 11% of Dublin Bus Revenue, 20% of Bus Eireann Revenue, 8% of Irish Rail Revenue and 9% of Luas revenue.

    Until the recent decision to increase it's funding is put into effect you can knock 4% or so off that for the current 'de facto' subsidy those companies are giving FT because of the funding freeze during the crash years, but that's still a huge chunk on it's own.

    I would love to know what % Taxsaver is, or how much they save by having the NTA buy the busses etc

    Maybe we could stand to subsidize it more, I'd like to see more figures, but we are hardly skimping on them.

    Maybe..just maybe, it's similar a problem to the health service: that all the extra money given during the boom was sucked up by massively increased wages (especially premium payments) instead of actual service provision. We know BE's wages went up 90% during the boom, and didn't go down much during the crash.

    Excluding free travel pass revenue, and the cost of buses, subsidy per journey is:
    €1.03c Bus Eireann (€40.6m subsidy overall)
    €0.47c Dublin Bus (€59.6m subsidy overall)

    Publicly avaliable bus funding consists of (2016)
    €50m for Bus Eireann
    €35m for Dublin Bus

    If you add these in you're going to end up at roughly:
    €2.25c per journey for Bus Eireann
    €0.75c per journey for Dublin Bus.

    I don't have per company figures for DSP., only an overall one for the CIE Group.


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    #27
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I lived in Brussels and have to disagree. I could walk home from Brussels centre to the outskirts in around 40 mins... Dublin is far more spread out

    And as we know people are commuting longer distances here also.

    So if Brussels' annual pass is a euro a day, how many euros a day is the Dublin annual pass?


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    #28
    cython
    Registered Users Posts: 4,758 ✭✭✭cython


    Chuchote wrote: »
    So if Brussels' annual pass is a euro a day, how many euros a day is the Dublin annual pass?

    Based on a bus/rail/Luas annual ticket being €2180 (before any tax relief), approx €6 (actually €5.97). Even with the max tax relief, you're still looking at near enough to €3 per day here.


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    #29
    BlinkingLights
    Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    I would like to see a comparison, like-for-like as I know the French system for example and there are plenty of subsidies coming from all sorts of sources, it's absolutely not on 'en bloc' fund.

    The same applies in Brussels where you've funds coming from not only different sources, but different governments and language communities, as well as from the EU and NATO in some cases too where special routes were subsidised.

    The sense I get is that Irish public transport is pretty underfunded and is using urban services to cross-subsidise rural services, particularly in the Bus ?ireann world.

    The state of public transport in the cities, other than Dublin, is even worse. Cork's bus network and frequency is an absolute joke when you compare it with say French cities of similar scale and population.

    Also, Leap still doesn't really work and you still have the insane situation of passengers having to push past each other getting in / out of busses slowing down journey times because CIE has some kind of OCD attitude to fare evasion, which apparently is absolutely unique to Ireland and doesn't happen anywhere else in the world (in their imagination).

    Until you can just go from point A to point B on a single Leap journey, the Leap card is nothing more than a virtual purse / pre-paid credit card in most instances.

    They could have saved themselves a small fortune and just accepted Visa debit.


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    #30
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    BlinkingLights wrote:
    They could have saved themselves a small fortune and just accepted Visa debit.

    Any suggestion that RPA should have developed leap on emv is simply ludicrous and displays an immense lack of understanding of the complexity of doing that. London only relatively recently started accepting emv after years of effort, huge expense and a lot of support from Visa and Cube. The idea that Ireland could have gone there first is crazy. And that's ignoring the fact that Irish banks didn't start rolling out contactless cards here until several years after leap had been launched.

    Even now, a project to add emv support to leap will be complicated and expensive. All the validators on every bus, at every luas, dart and IR station and all the handheld RPU unites will need to be replaced and most of the back-end software rewritten or replaced. As with London, the complexity of building a system that supports both systems would be too big so they'll probably end up running both systems indefinitely.


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    #31
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,226 ✭✭✭howiya


    markpb wrote: »
    Any suggestion that RPA should have developed leap on emv is simply ludicrous and displays an immense lack of understanding of the complexity of doing that. London only relatively recently started accepting emv after years of effort, huge expense and a lot of support from Visa and Cube. The idea that Ireland could have gone there first is crazy. And that's ignoring the fact that Irish banks didn't start rolling out contactless cards here until several years after leap had been launched.

    Even now, a project to add emv support to leap will be complicated and expensive. All the validators on every bus, at every luas, dart and IR station and all the handheld RPU unites will need to be replaced and most of the back-end software rewritten or replaced. As with London, the complexity of building a system that supports both systems would be too big so they'll probably end up running both systems indefinitely.

    London started accepting contactless payments on buses in 2012. Hardly relatively recently.

    Leap was launched in 2011. The first contactless payment in Ireland took place in 2010 with banks rolling out cards from 2011 onwards. BOI had some 400,000 cards in issue by mid 2012. Hardly several years after leap was launched.

    TFL took 9 years from the launch of Oyster before they started taking contactless payments. The key difference is that the technology wasn't there in 2003. It did exist when we decided not to use it.

    I do agree with that decision and your suggestion that it would have been crazy for us to go with contactless payments first. The use of Oyster fostered a culture in London of using cards for payment of fares. Leap has done the same for us. Now it's time to move to the next step and pay with a different card.

    Will it be expensive? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't do it? I don't think so


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