The great Bail debacle

Carawaystick · 01-06-2016 11:39AM #1

The IT has a story about a judge O'Connor in Tralee setting bail for a woman at 100 euros, and then seeing she had more money in her possession ordered it to be counted and then reset bail at the sum of cash she had.

judge O' Connor wrote:

Hold on! Take all that out ...and the rest that you put back in....hand the whole lot over, and the rest

It hardly seems an objective way to set bail.
and a little casual racism with a reference to these people

ohnonotgmail · 01-06-2016 01:05PM

Carawaystick wrote: »

The IT has a story about a judge O'Connor in Tralee setting bail for a woman at 100 euros, and then seeing she had more money in her possession ordered it to be counted and then reset bail at the sum of cash she had.

It hardly seems an objective way to set bail.
and a little casual racism with a reference to these people

link?

and a little casual racism with a reference to these people

what did he say that you consider racist?

livedadream · 01-06-2016 01:07PM

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/woman-with-bundles-of-cash-in-court-accused-of-bleeding-system-1.2667384?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-and-law%2Fcourts%2Fdistrict-court%2Fwoman-with-bundles-of-cash-in-court-accused-of-bleeding-system-1.2667384

and for those who cant be arsed paying

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/madam-youre-bleeding-the-system-402612.html

seems fair enough bit cheeky to have a grand in cash on you and then say you cant afford the grand bail....

judges comments weren't ideal either though.

Judge O’Connor said: “These people couldn’t give two hoots… Madam, you’re bleeding the system.”

he leaves the 'these people' comment open to accusations of racism because she is Romanian, he could have been referring to criminals in general though...

questionmark? · 01-06-2016 01:12PM

Great to see some positive action by a judge. Too many abusing the system and this woman was clearly taken the proverbial out of the system. There was no racism, unless your a professional at been offended.

colm_mcm · 01-06-2016 01:16PM

Bail was set at €1000, she didn't have that much apparently, bail reduced to €100. Pulls out €1600 and peels off €100.

mickoneill31 · 01-06-2016 01:17PM

Carawaystick wrote: »

It hardly seems an objective way to set bail.

I agree with your statement. Why ask people how much they want to pay?

Judge O’Connor asked if she had cash for bail and after consulting with Ms Munteanu, Mr Enright said Munteanu told him she didn’t have much but could offer €100.

She said she only had €100. If she'd said a fiver would that have been enough? Just set it at a grand for everybody that seems to be taking the piss. You get it back when you turn up for court.

ohnonotgmail · 01-06-2016 01:19PM

However the judge agreed to defer the matter for an interpreter, and remanded her in custody with consent to bail on a bond of €1,000. Judge O’Connor asked if she had cash for bail and after consulting with Ms Munteanu, Mr Enright said Munteanu told him she didn’t have much but could offer €100.

Lets be honest she was taking the proverbial. and she claimed she needed an interpreter but was able to understand her own solicitor?

livedadream · 01-06-2016 01:22PM

mickoneill31 wrote: »

I agree with your statement. Why ask people how much they want to pay?

Judge O’Connor asked if she had cash for bail and after consulting with Ms Munteanu, Mr Enright said Munteanu told him she didn’t have much but could offer €100.

She said she only had €100. If she'd said a fiver would that have been enough? Just set it at a grand for everybody that seems to be taking the piss. You get it back when you turn up for court.

he asked her if she had CASH for bail not if she had the 1000 euro.

she was remanded first then he said okay thatll be 1000 euro for bail, do you have cash? she told her solicitor she didnt but could offer 100 euro and then proceeded to take that 100 euro from a stack of approx 1450 euro CASH she had in her purse.

not including the sterling she had, its safe to say she had enough to post bail and was taking the piss.

from my understanding Pat Enright is a great solicitor, but fluent in Romanian he is not. she could clearly understand what was being said and was just trying to delay proceedings.

seamus · 01-06-2016 01:29PM

Bail by definition should be subjective.

The amount should be enough that the person can't afford to lose it, and appropriately weighted for the scale of the crime. For some people a €1,000 bond might leave them eating beans for two months, for a millionaire it's completely meaningless.

This woman demonstrated her means in court and the judge assessed the level of bail appropriately.

Speedwell · 01-06-2016 01:34PM

If I had 1450 in cash and 1200 or so of that had to go for rent and bills, I wouldn't "have" 1000, either. Does everyone have a bank account?

ezra_ · 01-06-2016 01:37PM

Carawaystick wrote: »

The IT has a story about a judge O'Connor in Tralee setting bail for a woman at 100 euros, and then seeing she had more money in her possession ordered it to be counted and then reset bail at the sum of cash she had.

It hardly seems an objective way to set bail.
and a little casual racism with a reference to these people

From the IE:

Bail set a 1000
Women asked for 100 as she couldn't afford it, judge agrees
Women pulls out a roll of cash.
Judge puts back up the bail to what she has.

Not seeing the issue here...

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 01-06-2016 01:37PM

Carawaystick wrote: »

It hardly seems an objective way to set bail.
and a little casual racism with a reference to these people

This is the problem. People such as you tripping over themselves to get offended on others behalf.

The dogs in the street could see she was taking the piss, asking for a translator, sobbing in court, putting on the poor mouth and making a derisory offer of 10% of the required bail. Pulling out a wad of notes just proves the contempt she had for the court.

I'm delighted the judge saw straight through that. We need to start putting the foot down. What do you think would happen in Romania if you were over there and you couldn't afford the bail?

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 01-06-2016 01:40PM

Speedwell wrote: »

If I had 1450 in cash and 1200 or so of that had to go for rent and bills, I wouldn't "have" 1000, either. Does everyone have a bank account?

Don't commit any crimes then, and you won't need to worry. You don't pay rent being remanded in custody anyway.

Speedwell · 01-06-2016 01:43PM

Jesus, I'm not a Christian or a criminal, but even I wouldn't put someone on the streets by taking their rent money in bail. I'm guessing that no such argument was raised, or we'd have heard about it, but I can't believe that people on here are advocating this inhumane crap.

I'm not even going to approach the middle-class-values, elitist nonsense about everyone having a bank account, when everyone knows that many people are turned away by banks for a number of reasons.

livedadream · 01-06-2016 01:48PM

put her on the street? thats a slight exaggeration, do you know many people with over a grand in cash readily available to them (and some sterling for good measure) that are just back from a trip abroad?? youre having a laugh mate.

jesus lad ive a good solid job but defo dont have a wad of €50 notes (in varying currencies) shoved down my bra in case of emergencies like.

Romanian or Irish national doesnt come into it, its the same as if i an Irish national, where Irish is my first language was in court for the same issue, i could ask for an interpreter- i didnt speak English till i was 7, claim i dont have the cash, then produce the money i said i dont have in front the the judge and expect to get away with it?? oh and ps: can i have a bit back for the bus back to Dingle please Judge.

that person was taking the piss.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 01-06-2016 01:48PM

Speedwell wrote: »

Jesus, I'm not a Christian or a criminal, but even I wouldn't put someone on the streets by taking their rent money in bail. I'm guessing that no such argument was raised, or we'd have heard about it, but I can't believe that people on here are advocating this inhumane crap.

But paying bail isn't compulsory. The alternative is being remanded in custody, so there's nothing to stop you paying your rent and then going to prison whilst awaiting trial. We need deterrents for people to avoid committing crimes, you can't just have it to suit individual circumstances.

schemingbohemia · 01-06-2016 01:53PM

Speedwell wrote: »

Jesus, I'm not a Christian or a criminal, but even I wouldn't put someone on the streets by taking their rent money in bail. I'm guessing that no such argument was raised, or we'd have heard about it, but I can't believe that people on here are advocating this inhumane crap.

I'm not even going to approach the middle-class-values, elitist nonsense about everyone having a bank account, when everyone knows that many people are turned away by banks for a number of reasons.

Rent money wasn't raised as an issue. So you're saying that someone who has told the court that they can't afford €1000 bail but can afford €100 and then takes the guts of €2k out of their bag is deserving of pity and it's inhumane to treat her in such a way?

livedadream · 01-06-2016 01:53PM

OSI wrote: »

"Are you resident?" "Yes" "Here's a bank account"

while i agree it ridiculous that people don't have bank accounts these days you do need more that to be fair:

proof of ID:A valid passport
A current Irish driving licence
A National Age Card (issued by An Garda Siochana)
An identification form with a photograph signed by a member of An Garda Siochana
Documents issued by Government departments showing your name
- See more at: http://www.consumerhelp.ie/opening-an-account#sthash.HHzI1jKB.dpuf

you will need one of the following documents with your name on it to prove where you live:

A current utility bill (such as a gas, electricity, telephone or TV bill)
A current car or home insurance policy that shows your address
A document issued by a Government department that shows your address
A list of your tax credits issued by Revenue
A current balancing statement or a C2 certificate from the Revenue Commissioners
A social insurance document that shows your address
A letter from your employer or licensed employment agency stating that you have recently arrived in Ireland and have started work but cannot yet provide evidence of your Irish address. (You will have to provide evidence of your address at a later date)

not everyone has letters like that in their name at a registered address, living at home or in a hostel, no bills, unfortunately ive seen it happen.
its rare but i have seen it.

seamus · 01-06-2016 02:05PM

Speedwell wrote: »

If I had 1450 in cash and 1200 or so of that had to go for rent and bills, I wouldn't "have" 1000, either. Does everyone have a bank account?

If you had 1450 in cash and needed 1200 for your rent, would you be carrying it all around in your pocket?

Oh and of course, "Maybe she was going to meet her landlord after court".

Sleeper12 · 01-06-2016 02:17PM

Carawaystick wrote:

It hardly seems an objective way to set bail. and a little casual racism with a reference to these people

She cried poverty and said she only had 100. The judge was sympathetic and was accepting the 100. She pulled out a wad of cash in front of the judge. He could have held her for contempt of court for lying to the court. I think she got off lucky. Remember it's bail money and she gets it all back when / if she turns up for the court date

foggy_lad · 01-06-2016 04:19PM

We must also remember that she appeared in custody after being arrested on foot of a warrant for not appearing at the previous sitting of the court because she had left the country.

Should we not be more concerned about how a woman so poor and destitute she must allegedly steal Hennessey brandy and washing powder from a Supervalu store ends up with so much cash? Bring on the Mini-CAB I say.

Dinny Byrne has Angina · 01-06-2016 07:10PM

seamus wrote: »

If you had 1450 in cash and needed 1200 for your rent, would you be carrying it all around in your pocket?

Oh and of course, "Maybe she was going to meet her landlord after court".

Putting that sentence in inverted commas doesn't defeat the point.

I have no clue as to whether or not this woman withheld her rent that month for fear of prison, but it's hardly an incredible prospect.

Very poor people in minimum wage jobs, with children to feed, will typically have this much money pass through their hands on a monthly basis.

Too often we are quick to invent bizarre conspiracies about wealthy Romanians, when in reality, plenty of poor people could produce this sum in court if pushed, typically by withholding their rent or other essential bills.

I've been very poor and have nevertheless spent ridiculous sums on basic food and rent. Most of us have probably been in that situation at some point of our lives, not least immigrants.

Anyway, we're talking about bail here. It's not on par with a penal sanction. So although I don't think there's a grand romanian conspiracy here, neither is it a particularly big deal.

01-06-2016 08:21PM

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Don't commit any crimes then, and you won't need to worry. You don't pay rent being remanded in custody anyway.

Well that is simply not true.

It does seem very arbitrary to just ask what they can afford, if the woman had been a bit cuter she would have gotten away with just the hundred

FiannaSuccess · 01-06-2016 08:30PM

Why did she brandish a wad of cash in front of the judge? That was really stupid inf fairness.

Canadel · 01-06-2016 09:46PM

seamus wrote: »

This woman demonstrated her means in court and the judge assessed the level of bail appropriately.

Did she? From what I read, she had nearly two grand in cash. But I don't see how that is a demonstration of her means.

FiannaSuccess wrote: »

Why did she brandish a wad of cash in front of the judge? That was really stupid inf fairness.

I imagine she took the Judge at his word regarding the €100 bail. Unfortunately for her it seems the judge has a problem with poor people possessing large amounts of cash. As do many posters here.

Fred Swanson · 01-06-2016 09:46PM

This post has been deleted.

WhiteWalls · 01-06-2016 09:51PM

Do you get bail money back?

Fred Swanson · 01-06-2016 09:54PM

This post has been deleted.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 01-06-2016 09:55PM

WhiteWalls wrote: »

Do you get bail money back?

If you attend the court date that you're due, otherwise you forfeit it.

The one's defending her on here, and saying that the judge isn't a man of his word should remember that you have no automatic right to bail. It's at the discretion of the courts, and if you can't meet the conditions then tough luck.

Todd Toddington III · 01-06-2016 09:56PM

@Canadel
Another lefty who believes we should all be molly coddled with free houses and hugs, including criminals. This woman committed a crime believe it or not, hence she's before a judge who takes pity on her inability to pay the full whack... She's lucky she didn't get done for contempt the p$#s taker. What ever happened to personal responsibility? Well done judge

Canadel · 01-06-2016 10:04PM

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

@Canadel
Another lefty who believes we should all be molly coddled with free houses and hugs, including criminals. This woman committed a crime believe it or not, hence she's before a judge who takes pity on her inability to pay the full whack... She's lucky she didn't get done for contempt the p$#s taker. What ever happened to personal responsibility? Well done judge

Free houses no. Hugs yes.

The great Bail debacle

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