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Atheists and religious minorities

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  • 08-02-2016 1:37am
    #1
    Michael Nugent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭


    Atheist Ireland is working with religious minorities who are also discriminated against in Ireland because of lack of separation of religion and state.

    One area of cooperation is giving feedback to the NCCA about the proposed new state curriculum course about religions and beliefs and ethics. We want to ensure that minority religious beliefs and nonreligious philosophical convictions are dealt with accurately. We also want legal changes to be made to ensure that the curriculum is delivered objectively critically and pluralistically and not combined with the religious instruction classes or the ethos of the school.

    Another area of cooperation is the need for political change to protect all of our rights equally to freedom of religion, conscience and belief, equality before the law and freedom from discrimination. With the general election coming up, we are jointly organising a public meeting this Thursday in Wynn's Hotel on Abbey Street, Dublin. Please attend and find out what questions to ask your politicians about secularism when they come canvassing.

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    #2
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,365 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Michael Nugent wrote: »
    We also want legal changes to be made to ensure that the curriculum is delivered objectively critically and pluralistically and not combined with the religious instruction classes or the ethos of the school.

    Religious patrons simply cannot be trusted to do this.

    It is like expecting to go into a Tesco and be told about all the better offers available in Dunnes.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,242 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    It would be of no interest or advantage to religious patrons to remain as patrons if their guaranteed access to children were removed.


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    #4
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    looksee wrote: »
    It would be of no interest or advantage to religious patrons to remain as patrons if their guaranteed access to children were removed.

    What?


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    #5
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    No entirely sure of the value of AI throwing their lot in with evangelicals and Muslim missionaries while seemingly maintaining a spat with Educate Together. As I've said before, the People's front of Judea still appear to be fighting the good fight against the Popular Judean People's front while under Roman occupation. But then it could just be that I'm a splitter...


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    #6
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,132 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Minority religions are always secular when they're minorities.

    When they become majority religions they are no longer interested in secularism. They become interested in oppression. And the people they like to oppress first are other religious minorities, secularists and atheists.

    Funny how it works, innit?

    Be careful who you jump into bed with! They may want to **** you in the end.


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    #7
    Nick Park
    Registered Users Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Minority religions are always secular when they're minorities.

    When they become majority religions they are no longer interested in secularism. They become interested in oppression. And the people they like to oppress first are other religious minorities, secularists and atheists.

    Funny how it works, innit?

    Be careful who you jump into bed with! They may want to **** you in the end.

    History would suggest that is true of ideologies in general, both religious and anti-religious.

    Perhaps we should all hope that our own ideology or religion remains in the minority and never gains political power or dominance. Losing freedom is bad enough. Losing integrity would be far worse.


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    #8
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,856 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Its an odd Muslim group to associate with, that sect are the Christian equivalent of seventh day adventists, your average Muslim would view them as heritics.
    In saying that if the optics are more for non muslims then fair enough. It is funny though the two lads in the middle were campaigning for a no vote last summer , so they don't exactly have solid credentials when it comes to separation of church and state.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #9
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Minority religions are always secular when they're minorities. When they become majority religions they are no longer interested in secularism.
    That's a well-observed phenomenon - for obvious reasons :rolleyes:


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    #10
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,242 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I can't say I am very impressed with Atheist Ireland matching up with religious groups. Either you are atheist or you are not. Seems like a bit of opportunist cynicism on all sides there.


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    #11
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    looksee wrote: »
    I can't say I am very impressed with Atheist Ireland matching up with religious groups. Either you are atheist or you are not. Seems like a bit of opportunist cynicism on all sides there.

    Sharing common goals regarding secularism is not a bad move. A.I. hardly believe that the religious groups see eye to eye on everything or even necessarily like secularism overall, but discussions are useful.

    Being atheist does not prohibit any move at all. That is why pretty much all atheists have OTHER aspects to their personalities that define who and what they are in regard to politics, ethics and social attitudes.
    I would not necessarily support some atheists just because they are 'atheists' if we did not share other important values too, including secularism and scepticism.

    People are people first, there is nothing to stop atheists finding common ground on issues with non atheists. It would indeed be self defeating to act otherwise and would turn us into something akin to religious zealots.


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    #12
    Nick Park
    Registered Users Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    looksee wrote: »
    I can't say I am very impressed with Atheist Ireland matching up with religious groups. Either you are atheist or you are not. Seems like a bit of opportunist cynicism on all sides there.

    Do you realise how much that sounds like the stuff that religious fundamentalists say to me?

    Some of us realise that we share common goals in that we want to live in a truly secular society. That doesn't make Michael any less of an atheist (or me any less of a Christian).


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    #13
    Bristolscale7
    Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    Thought this was a waterford whispers article initially.


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    #14
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,242 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Well I am cynical enough to think that neither Muslims nor Evangelican Christians want a truly secular society, they just don't want a Roman Catholic one.


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    #15
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,856 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    looksee wrote: »
    Well I am cynical enough to think that neither Muslims nor Evangelican Christians want a truly secular society, they just don't want a Roman Catholic one.

    I'd imagine some Atheists are like that too, break the RC and their particular -ism has a better chance :D

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #16
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    This meeting could read like a joke: 'An atheist, an evangelical Christian and a Muslim walk into a hotel...'.


    3 groups; 3 different agendas; 1 common 'enemy'. Machiavellian stuff indeed!


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    #17
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    No entirely sure of the value of AI throwing their lot in with evangelicals and Muslim missionaries while seemingly maintaining a spat with Educate Together...
    If 10 ET primary school principals wrote to the minister for education lobbying to allow them have priority admission for their "ethos" in a new ET secondary school, that counts as "positive discrimination" for them, which amounts to discrimination against the local religious primary schools. Now ET is saying they were denied this permission, but they still tried to get it.

    The state cannot provide an infinite number of schools, one for every conceivable ethos. Therefore the only real solution for public schools is secular schools. Those who already control state funded schools and/or madrassas, including ET and one or two of the larger minority religions are not going to like that.

    So its obvious that only those who don't currently control schools will support the move to secular schools.
    Even though we know that the evangelical minority sect muslims and evangelical minority sect christians would love to control schools, we know, and they know, it will never happen. So as long as they are willing to support the separation of church and state, including provision of secular state schools, they are a welcome addition to the campaign IMO.


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    #18
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Nick Park wrote: »
    History would suggest that is true of ideologies in general, both religious and anti-religious.

    Perhaps we should all hope that our own ideology or religion remains in the minority and never gains political power or dominance. Losing freedom is bad enough. Losing integrity would be far worse.

    I totally agree with this. Back home in New Zealand every religion is a minority. If every different Christian denomination were to be combined for statistical purposes they are still a minority, compared to non Christians (other religions, no religion and refuse to answer census question make up approx 52%, compared to Christians approx 48%). Christians are the largest single group when lumped in together, but no religion is by far the largest group when Christians are separated into their denominations (largest Christian denomination is RCC at 12.61%, no religion is 41.92%).

    Barely a peep against secularism out of any of them! Majority denominations are a nightmare!


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    #19
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    recedite wrote: »
    If 10 ET primary school principals wrote to the minister for education lobbying to allow them have priority admission for their "ethos" in a new ET secondary school, that counts as "positive discrimination" for them, which amounts to discrimination against the local religious primary schools. Now ET is saying they were denied this permission, but they still tried to get it.
    This was based on new (well, 2011) DoE requirements for new Secondary schools requiring they “meet the demographic needs presenting within a particular school feeder area”, which means that they must prioritise children from the local area, rather than a particular faith? That seems to have gone rather unremarked amongst the demands for secular schools to ensure schools don't prioritise children from a faith on the school patronage thread. I wonder why.


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    #20
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Absolam wrote: »
    This was based on new (well, 2011) DoE requirements for new Secondary schools requiring they “meet the demographic needs presenting within a particular school feeder area”, which means that they must prioritise children from the local area, rather than a particular faith? That seems to have gone rather unremarked amongst the demands for secular schools to ensure schools don't prioritise children from a faith on the school patronage thread. I wonder why.

    Indeed, for new secondary schools only which would include all educate together secondary schools, but a tiny minority of existing Catholic schools which can maintain discriminatory enrolment policies. From the ET statement on AI's comments;
    The writer seems incapable of understanding the context in which Educate Together is working. In over 90% of areas, parents have no option but to send their children to local Catholic schools and at second-level, there are only four brand new Educate Together schools out of a system of approximately 650 schools. The vast majority of existing second-level schools already impose admission policies which include feeder schools and overt and legal religious discrimination

    To suggest that ET are discriminating against Catholics by lobbying for the same enrolment rules for all schools is clearly ridiculous, where it is actually an attack on the Catholic ethos schools' right to apply positive discrimination.


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    #21
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    Was any Catholic speaker invited to this love-in? Or should the majority faith in this country have no say in how Catholic children are educated?


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    #22
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    If 10 ET primary school principals wrote to the minister for education lobbying to allow them have priority admission for their "ethos" in a new ET secondary school, that counts as "positive discrimination" for them, which amounts to discrimination against the local religious primary schools. Now ET is saying they were denied this permission, but they still tried to get it.

    As per my previous post, the context for this was new catchment based enrolment rules for new schools (i.e. all ET secondary schools) while allowing ongoing discrimination in favour of Catholics in the vast majority of other schools. Before you can talk about discrimination you need a level playing field.
    The state cannot provide an infinite number of schools, one for every conceivable ethos. Therefore the only real solution for public schools is secular schools. Those who already control state funded schools and/or madrassas, including ET and one or two of the larger minority religions are not going to like that.

    So its obvious that only those who don't currently control schools will support the move to secular schools. Even though we know that the evangelical minority sect muslims and evangelical minority sect christians would love to control schools, we know, and they know, it will never happen. So as long as they are willing to support the separation of church and state, including provision of secular state schools, they are a welcome addition to the campaign IMO.

    I don't think it is reasonable to conflate ET schools with Catholic ethos schools on one side under the banner of state funded schools and place AI's ideal notion of non-denominational schools on the other. Firstly its a false dichotomy. Secondly, I think you'd find that the vast majority of other minor religions would favour ET's inclusive multi-cultural ethos over AI's stricter notion of secularism which seems closer to French Laïcité


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    #23
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Was any Catholic speaker invited to this love-in? Or should the majority faith in this country have no say in how Catholic children are educated?

    I hope you're not suggesting that Atheist Ireland are discriminating against Catholics :pac:


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    #24
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    smacl wrote: »
    I hope you're not suggesting that Atheist Ireland are discriminating against Catholics :pac:

    AI have shown their true colours with this. They oppose religion, but will happily jump into bed with religious fundamentalists to get their own way. I've lost all respect for them.


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    #25
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    AI have shown their true colours with this. They oppose religion, but will happily jump into bed with religious fundamentalists to get their own way.
    So groups who agree on a single common goal must agree on everything before they work together? AI doesn't oppose religion. AI opposes religious discrimination and the reins held by the Catholic Church over state-funded services in Ireland.
    I've lost all respect for them.
    Like you had any in the first place.


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    #26
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,365 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    I've lost all respect for them.

    LOLLLLLLLLLLL

    Or maybe your posts are a self-parody?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #27
    Nick Park
    Registered Users Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    recedite wrote: »
    Even though we know that the evangelical minority sect muslims and evangelical minority sect christians would love to control schools

    Totally untrue. I would hate to see my religion controlling schools.

    There's a basic principle here. When a religion (or a non-religious ideology such as atheism) gets into a place of political or cultural dominance, it is not only bad for society. It is bad for the religion or ideology as well. Human nature being what it is, corruption sets in.

    It's not a case of saying, "Oh we're a minority so we'll push for secularism." Evangelicalism (and atheism too, btw) works best when its proponents are a minority group operating in a secular society where they are given no special favours and are subjected to no special restrictions.


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    #28
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Nick Park wrote: »
    Totally untrue. I would hate to see my religion controlling schools.

    There's a basic principle here. When a religion (or a non-religious ideology such as atheism) gets into a place of political or cultural dominance, it is not only bad for society. It is bad for the religion or ideology as well. Human nature being what it is, corruption sets in.

    With respect, atheism is not a non-religious ideology, it is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. Beyond this, atheists do not have a common ideology, philosophy or world view. Atheism is not like a religious sect that doesn't have a god.
    It's not a case of saying, "Oh we're a minority so we'll push for secularism." Evangelicalism (and atheism too, btw) works best when its proponents are a minority group operating in a secular society where they are given no special favours and are subjected to no special restrictions.

    Atheism doesn't 'work', because atheism doesn't have a function or agenda.


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    #29
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Nick Park wrote: »
    Totally untrue. I would hate to see my religion controlling schools.

    There's a basic principle here. When a religion (or a non-religious ideology such as atheism) gets into a place of political or cultural dominance, it is not only bad for society. It is bad for the religion or ideology as well. Human nature being what it is, corruption sets in.

    It's not a case of saying, "Oh we're a minority so we'll push for secularism." Evangelicalism (and atheism too, btw) works best when its proponents are a minority group operating in a secular society where they are given no special favours and are subjected to no special restrictions.

    If the vast majority were evangelical, would that mean that they were obligated to travel abroad to spread the word, the locals having virually all heard it?


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    #30
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Nick Park wrote: »
    Totally untrue. I would hate to see my religion controlling schools...
    It is bad for the religion or ideology as well. Human nature being what it is, corruption sets in.
    You say that now, knowing it to be true. But if it was available to you, you'd take it. Just to build up the numbers a bit.
    Its like someone living on a desert island saying "chocolate is bad for you anyway, coconuts are much healthier" :D


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    #31
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    To suggest that ET are discriminating against Catholics by lobbying for the same enrolment rules for all schools is clearly ridiculous, where it is actually an attack on the Catholic ethos schools' right to apply positive discrimination.
    Try telling that to all the RC kids and their parents living next door to the school, who get all excited watching it being built, and then when it opens they are refused a place.
    In the real world ET have shot themselves in the foot by trying to impose their own "priority admission". The word has got out, and now RC parents (who are still the majority in this country) fear that they will not have equal priority for admission to their local new secondary school if ET gets hold of the patronage.
    See this post for an example.
    There is more discussion in that thread, but basically it comes down to this; if a new secondary school attempts to create a feeder area which is larger than the area of local primary schools which can fully supply it with pupils (probably only 5-10 schools) then it starts discriminating against the majority of local kids. Only the RCC has enough people to pull off this trick, ie to be discriminatory but also supply the majority of local need and be supported locally. Yes, it is the tyranny of the majority. No minority religion can pull it off, and neither can ET.

    That's why ET is better off keeping to the high moral ground, by letting people know it will impose zero priority and zero discrimination within the local feeder area of any new secondary school it is tendering for.

    ET is also not far off being secular in its teaching methods, so rather than fight against secular schooling it should embrace the idea and work with AI.


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