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undercover police officer fathers children

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  • 16-12-2015 12:26am
    #1
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭


    Stumbled across this. A number of police officers in England had long term sexual relationships with low level environmental activists and even fathered children with them. The women were not criminals.
    Does this constitute rape by deception? Is officially sanctioned/funded rape a war crime in your own country. Has anything like this ever happened in this country? Don't know how to put up links.


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    #2
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,282 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    melissak wrote: »
    Does this constitute rape by deception?
    Were these just adults who had sex consensually and had children? Nothing along the lines of the "he came to me in the middle of the night and I thought it was my husband"?
    Is officially sanctioned/funded rape a war crime in your own country.
    Was there a war?


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    #3
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    In relation to the crime of rape, there is a general rule that fraud as to the nature and quality of the act and fraud as to the identity of the sexual partner vitiates consent.

    However, fraud as to the attributes of a sexual partner does not vitiate consent. Therefore, pretending be a pilot in order to have sex with somebody or giving a false name does not vitiate consent to sex. By the same token, pretending to be an animal rights activist does not vitiate consent to sex.

    See this article.


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    #4
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    Victor wrote: »
    Were these just adults who had sex consensually and had children? Nothing along the lines of the "he came to me in the middle of the night and I thought it was my husband"?


    Was there a war?
    They were undercover policemen on a mission pretending to be environmentalists using fake names backgrounds who formed relationships solely for the purpose of creating a cover for their operation. Their operation was to destroy the movement these women were a part of.
    What constitutes war?


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    #5
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    Pat Mustard wrote: »
    In relation to the crime of rape, there is a general rule that fraud as to the nature and quality of the act and fraud as to the identity of the sexual partner vitiates consent.

    However, fraud as to the attributes of a sexual partner does not vitiate consent. Therefore, pretending be a pilot in order to have sex with somebody or giving a false name does not vitiate consent to sex. By the same token, pretending to be an animal rights activist does not vitiate consent to sex.

    See this article.

    Not so. A woman in England got 8 years for having sex with another woman pretending to be a man. How this could happen I have no idea. I would imagine these activists would have a stronger ideological objection to sleeping with a police officer than most.


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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    melissak wrote: »
    Not so. A woman in England got 8 years for having sex with another woman pretending to be a man. How this could happen I have no idea. I would imagine these activists would have a stronger ideological objection to sleeping with a police officer than most.

    If I met a man who claimed to be a multi millionaire business man, we continued to have a relationship and he fathered a child to me, then I find out its all rubbish, he is up to his eyeballs in debt & just lives like Walter Mitty. Do you think I could shout rape?

    I don't think so, the definition of rape does not include fraud or deception.


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    #7
    LeBash
    Registered Users Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭LeBash


    Hey Bubblypop, did I ever tell you I was a millionaire.


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    #8
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    bubblypop wrote: »
    If I met a man who claimed to be a multi millionaire business man, we continued to have a relationship and he fathered a child to me, then I find out its all rubbish, he is up to his eyeballs in debt & just lives like Walter Mitty. Do you think I could shout rape?

    I don't think so, the definition of rape does not include fraud or deception.
    In England it does apparently. I will look it up but I don't know how to put up links from my phone


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    #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    melissak wrote: »
    In England it does apparently. I will look it up but I don't know how to put up links from my phone

    Well thankfully our laws are different.

    I thought you didn't like belittling sexual crimes as they take away from the seriousness for the victim?


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    #10
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    bubblypop wrote: »
    If I met a man who claimed to be a multi millionaire business man, we continued to have a relationship and he fathered a child to me, then I find out its all rubbish, he is up to his eyeballs in debt & just lives like Walter Mitty. Do you think I could shout rape?

    I don't think so, the definition of rape does not include fraud or deception.
    In England it does apparently. I will look it up but I don't know how to put up links from my phone
    Google it. Whether it SHOULD be a crime of rape, I do not know, but it is and people have been convicted.
    Do you not think it is shocking that the police would do this to these women. They were not criminals.


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    #11
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Well thankfully our laws are different.

    I thought you didn't like belittling sexual crimes as they take away from the seriousness for the victim?

    You think this is the same as slapping someone on the arse in a nightclub. Stop following me around to find inconsistencies in my position. It is creepy.
    These men had years long relationships with these women solely for the purpose of their mission one fathered two kids and then disappeared without trace when the "job" was over
    She searched for him for years believing him to be a loving husband and father.. It was an official operation. Do you think this is a trivial matter?


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    #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    melissak wrote: »
    In England it does apparently. I will look it up but I don't know how to put up links from my phone
    Google it. Whether it SHOULD be a crime of rape, I do not know, but it is and people have been convicted.
    Do you not think it is shocking that the police would do this to these women. They were not criminals.

    They were not criminals? So if they were that would be different?
    It's not shocking at all.

    These men, lived the life of environmental activists, or whatever they were, do you understand what that means?
    24/7/365, they actually were activists for all intents and purposes.

    Do you think they didn't form relationships with people while they lived as their friend? Do you think they didn't like the people?
    If anything I feel sorry for the policemen, who clearly had relationships with people without being able to tell them the truth.


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    #13
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,478 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    melissak wrote: »
    In England it does apparently. I will look it up but I don't know how to put up links from my phone
    Google it. Whether it SHOULD be a crime of rape, I do not know, but it is and people have been convicted.
    Do you not think it is shocking that the police would do this to these women. They were not criminals.

    I would think it more shocking if someone choose to have a child with someone based solely on the belief that they are an environmental activist!


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    #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    melissak wrote: »
    You think this is the same as slapping someone on the arse in a nightclub. Stop following me around to find inconsistencies in my position. It is creepy.
    These men had years long relationships with these women solely for the purpose of their mission one fathered two kids and then disappeared without trace when the "job" was over
    She searched for him for years believing him to be a loving husband and father.. It was an official operation. Do you think this is a trivial matter?

    You seem to think someone lying to women to get them to sleep with them is rape?
    Laughable.
    They're would be a lot of men in this country shaking in their boots if that was the case.

    Oh, I'm hardly ' following' you. Merely pulling you up on your inconsistencies.


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    #15
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    bubblypop wrote: »
    They were not criminals? So if they were that would be different?
    It's not shocking at all.

    These men, lived the life of environmental activists, or whatever they were, do you understand what that means?
    24/7/365, they actually were activists for all intents and purposes.

    Do you think they didn't form relationships with people while they lived as their friend? Do you think they didn't like the people?
    If anything I feel sorry for the policemen, who clearly had relationships with people without being able to tell them the truth.

    Not the children, fathered for operational cover and abandoned suddenly one day without trace when they stopped being a useful cover. They moved on to different women and cover studies and never contacted them again. Are you familiar with the concept of informed consent? Abuse of state power?


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    #16
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    bubblypop wrote: »
    You seem to think someone lying to women to get them to sleep with them is rape?
    Laughable.
    They're would be a lot of men in this country shaking in their boots if that was the case.

    Oh, I'm hardly ' following' you. Merely pulling you up on your inconsistencies.
    I don't necessarily think so. The British judiciary does. Google it... You are adopting a foolish position to disagree with me because you are offended that i disagreed with you on another thread. You are making my opinions too important to you. I am flattered that you would go to thebother but you are not comparing like with like.


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    #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    melissak wrote: »
    Not the children, fathered for operational cover and abandoned suddenly one day without trace when they stopped being a useful cover. They moved on to different women and cover studies and never contacted them again. Are you familiar with the concept of informed consent? Abuse of state power?

    As has been done by countless father's over many years.
    Are you familiar with the concept of abandoned mothers?

    Abuse of state power? Get real! These men were not sent out by the state to sleep with women!!
    It's merely relationships they found themselves in at a certain time of their lives.

    Now, if you're asking if morally they were wrong, then absolutely yes, morally they were totally wrong.
    But that does not a rape make.


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    #18
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    I would think it more shocking if someone choose to have a child with someone based solely on the belief that they are an environmental activist!
    People tend to have relationships children with people who share their ideological beliefs and world views etc
    They categorically wouldn't have had relationships with them if they knew they were policemen trying to infiltrate their groupdestroy their (not illegal) movemen, and hopefully find secrets that could cause them or their friends to be arrested.


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    #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    melissak wrote: »
    I don't necessarily think so. The British judiciary does. Google it... You are adopting a foolish position to disagree with me because you are offended that i disagreed with you on another thread. You are making my opinions too important to you. I am flattered that you would go to thebother but you are not comparing like with like.

    Nope, I'm disagreeing with you because I don't agree with you.
    It's not rape.
    I have explained already I think it's morally wrong. But its not rape. And its not a ' abuse of state power'


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    #20
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    It makes them assholes not rapists


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    #21
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    It was an official mission. The police have conceded that it was abuse and without reservation apologised. The judge awarded them all( there were several)compensation.
    Countless father's have done this.? I doubt it. I should hope the amount of people who did this are countable and that it is a small number. One man's actions acting on his own volition are held to a lower standard than state actors on sanctioned missions, as well they should be.
    bubblypop wrote: »
    As has been done by countless father's over many years.
    Are you familiar with the concept of abandoned mothers?

    Abuse of state power? Get real! These men were not sent out by the state to sleep with women!!
    It's merely relationships they found themselves in at a certain time of their lives.

    Now, if you're asking if morally they were wrong, then absolutely yes, morally they were totally wrong.
    But that does not a rape make.


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    #22
    trixychic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭trixychic


    As this link shows, rape is without consent. There is no way these people could call rape. They had consentual sex with others. People lie all the time. It doesn't make it rape.
    https://rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/was-it-rape


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    #23
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    It makes them assholes not rapists

    But prople in England have been convicted of rape by deception. I didn't say I agree with the law, I am just interested in the legalities and looking for an opinion from someone fluent in legalese..


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    #24
    esforum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    melissak wrote: »
    Not the children, fathered for operational cover and abandoned suddenly one day without trace when they stopped being a useful cover. They moved on to different women and cover studies and never contacted them again. Are you familiar with the concept of informed consent??

    theres no suggestion that the relationship wasnt built on genuine feelings. i dont condone the behaviour to either mother or child but you cant state that the police officer had no emotional connections only that he chose career over family. sadly a more common event than it should be
    melissak wrote: »
    Abuse of state power?
    how? what power did he abuse? isnt your whole outrage based on the fact that he at no stage admitted being a cop?

    in regards the uk, no i dont think the fraud section is covered here. the fraud must relate to either the intended act or reason for the act as per section 76, sexual offences act 2003. im not 100% but i believe this section was at least in part as a result of cases involving the deliberate infecting of partners with std's

    in regards false identity, its very clear in the act that this refers to pretending to be the husband and section 74 defines consent as "For the purposes of this Part, a person consents if he agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice." the women could say yes or no or left the relationship. they had sufficient information to consent as a persons career or financial backing is not grounds either way. imagine cases were women only want to sleep with rich footballers and get duped, couldnt it be equally argued that the women decieved?

    i am curious, do you consider james bond to be raping women in his films? or arnie in true lies to be raping his wife?


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    #25
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    trixychic wrote: »
    As this link shows, rape is without consent. There is no way these people could call rape. They had consentual sex with others. People lie all the time. It doesn't make it rape.
    https://rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/was-it-rape

    Morally perhaps. A precedent has been set in the UK. Rape by deception is an accepted crime. I can't put up links because I am technologically retarded but Google rape by deception


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    #26
    trixychic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭trixychic


    melissak wrote: »
    Morally perhaps. A precedent has been set in the UK. Rape by deception is an accepted crime. I can't put up links because I am technologically retarded but Google rape by deception

    That is ridiculous. So many ppl go out every weekend and lie to ppl to get what they want. Are all of these "rapist"? No way. That is a farce. If consent is given it is not rape.


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    #27
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    melissak wrote: »
    But prople in England have been convicted of rape by deception. I didn't say I agree with the law, I am just interested in the legalities and looking for an opinion from someone fluent in legalese..


    This is an Irish forum and so most of us are Irish and talking about Irish law. It isn't rape where there has been consent.


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    #28
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    esforum wrote: »
    theres no suggestion that the relationship wasnt built on genuine feelings. i dont condone the behaviour to either mother or child but you cant state that the police officer had no emotional connections only that he chose career over family. sadly a more common event than it should be


    how? what power did he abuse? isnt your whole outrage based on the fact that he at no stage admitted being a cop?
    It was an official mission that targeted innocent women to sabotage their activities and ruin their lives when they had done nothing wrong but be flagged by their investigation as vulnerable enough to be targeted by them.


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    #29
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    melissak wrote: »
    It was an official mission that targeted innocent women to sabotage their activities and ruin their lives when they had done nothing wrong but be flagged by their investigation as vulnerable enough to be targeted by them.

    One of them abandoned his kids and immediately struck up a relationship on the other side of the country with another activist for another mission. Deep feelings for his kids there. He never saw them again for years to this story broke


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    #30
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    This is an Irish forum and so most of us are Irish and talking about Irish law. It isn't rape where there has been consent.

    Are we not permitted to discuss international cases on this forum. I will read the charter.I'm not that familiar with this forum tbh


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    #31
    REXER
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    melissak wrote: »
    One of them abandoned his kids and immediately struck up a relationship on the other side of the country with another activist for another mission. Deep feelings for his kids there. He never saw them again for years to this story broke

    I agree with you on this, it's the state fcuking with peoples heads! :eek:


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