NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

Marlow · 19-01-2018 3:13pm

listermint wrote: »

Even the FCC can get this right!

https://www.engadget.com/2018/01/18/fcc-mobile-internet-broadband-replacement/

Yeah ... but the ministry of non-communications over here sees it as equivalent. Because that's easier to them.

/M

KOR101 · 25-01-2018 5:55pm

Leo Varadkar

I accept that this is taking far too long and that it is enormously frustrating for everyone waiting for broadband connections in their homes. We anticipate that the contract will be signed this year and probably in the middle of the year. However, it is a very complex and complicated contract, much more so than people might have anticipated. Certainly, the best thing to do now is stick with it and get it signed this year rather than to go back to square one.

Notwithstanding the fact that we are struggling to get this contract sorted for those really important 500,000 premises, we are making progress.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-01-24a.165&s=national+broadband+plan#g228

rodge123 · 25-01-2018 6:48pm

KOR101 wrote: »

Leo Varadkar

I accept that this is taking far too long and that it is enormously frustrating for everyone waiting for broadband connections in their homes. We anticipate that the contract will be signed this year and probably in the middle of the year. However, it is a very complex and complicated contract, much more so than people might have anticipated. Certainly, the best thing to do now is stick with it and get it signed this year rather than to go back to square one.

Notwithstanding the fact that we are struggling to get this contract sorted for those really important 500,000 premises, we are making progress.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-01-24a.165&s=national+broadband+plan#g228

Truly depresssing stuff.
Before Christmas they were saying it would be early this year when contracts signed I thought?
It just seems to be endless delays...the cynic in me thinks they are purposely delaying In the hope that further premises can be removed from intervention areas

KOR101 · 25-01-2018 6:55pm

When he says "struggling to get this contract sorted" I think that's just an accurate description of what's happening. The chances of the whole thing collapsing must be high enough at this point.

KOR101 · 25-01-2018 6:57pm

And this............

Denis Naughten

I acknowledge that the procurement process that was entered into long before my time as Minister is a very complex process. Knowing what I know today, would I have gone down this road if I were Minister? I do not think so. However, we are where we are.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-01-24a.290&s=national+broadband+plan#g293

tsue921i8wljb3 · 25-01-2018 7:04pm

KOR101 wrote: »

And this............

Denis Naughten

I acknowledge that the procurement process that was entered into long before my time as Minister is a very complex process. Knowing what I know today, would I have gone down this road if I were Minister? I do not think so. However, we are where we are.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-01-24a.290&s=national+broadband+plan#g293

Jesus that is pretty damning. He usually is so positive about the process.

Pique · 25-01-2018 7:07pm

Naughton distancing himself from the **** up.

turbbo · 25-01-2018 7:34pm

Looks as if he's admitting Eir outwitted him and his dept. by cherry picking for the rural rollout. Pretty dismal work from the dept. and the minister.

AidenL · 25-01-2018 8:56pm

Bah, it seems its all bogged in post tender teasing out and comparatives.

Must have been some shoddy tender documents, with loopholes which the tenderers are able to exploit.

Edit: Seems its not actually tendered yet? If not, theres no way it will be signed and sealed mid year.

No shovels in the ground till next year.

Marlow · 25-01-2018 9:07pm

AidenL wrote: »

Bah, it seems its all bogged in post tender teasing out and comparatives.

Must have been some shoddy tender documents, with loopholes which the tenderers are able to exploit.

Edit: Seems its not actually tendered yet? If not, theres no way it will be signed and sealed mid year.

No shovels in the ground till next year.

The bids are in. That's about it. And there's only OpenEIR and e-Net left.

/M

tsue921i8wljb3 · 25-01-2018 9:19pm

AidenL wrote: »

Bah, it seems its all bogged in post tender teasing out and comparatives.

Must have been some shoddy tender documents, with loopholes which the tenderers are able to exploit.

Edit: Seems its not actually tendered yet? If not, theres no way it will be signed and sealed mid year.

No shovels in the ground till next year.

It's at this stage AFAIK.

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/communications/topics/Broadband/national-broadband-plan/state-intervention/Pages/Procurement.aspx

Hopefully there are some leaks to the papers explaining what the latest hold up is.

AidenL · 25-01-2018 9:24pm

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

It's at this stage AFAIK.

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/communications/topics/Broadband/national-broadband-plan/state-intervention/Pages/Procurement.aspx

If thats where its at, having had a lot of experience of government tendering, and on projects a lot simpler than this, I will be truly amazed if they sign contracts by June.

I hope Im wrong, but if tender documents haven't been issued , and I know how long post tender evaluations can take.......I'm betting towards the end of the year for contract signing.

Then ramp up to get on the ground, I'd be amazed if any ground is broken in 2018.

Just my guess.

oscarBravo · 26-01-2018 12:24am

I'm genuinely worried that everyone is laying the groundwork for a cop-out wireless solution, with a percentage of fibre in the easiest areas as a figleaf.

Mark my words: if there's a wireless solution, it will go through the inevitable stages in short order: the first few early adopters will be delighted, then it will be accepted as "better than what we had" as it gets busier, then it will start to creak under the strain of a demand it can't possibly cope with, then it will quickly be overtaken by the orders of magnitude faster services that will be available over fibre, then we'll have a new digital divide and there will be pressure on a future government to subsidise some proper future-proof infrastructure.

I'm blue in the face saying it: wireless is not infrastructure. Anyone who tells you wireless is infrastructure is either a snake oil salesman, or someone who has been gulled by one. There are no exceptions.

rodge123 · 26-01-2018 1:41am

I find this from Naughten interesting:

We are working with both wireless and mobile operators to exploit the fibre that has been built out and that is being built out across the country to provide people with a broadband solution in the short term. I know one company to which we have allocated broadband spectrum that expects to cover 85% of the country with broadband wireless services by 2019.

He is referring to Imagine I guess.

What's in this for Imagine?
Surely they will be out of business if NBP goes ahead with current numbers and FTTH....their wireless solution wont be a patch on FTTH.

Marlow · 26-01-2018 9:40am

Also .... that's utter bull. Because when the regulation of dark fiber pricing as a whole (be it government Metro networks pricing, forcing Eir to sell dark fiber, etc.), they (Naughten and Co.) weren't interested. Too much hassle/work.

It's one of the things that's needed to bring actual competition on high speed connections to the last mile.

/M

Marlow · 26-01-2018 9:49am

rodge123 wrote: »

What's in this for Imagine?
Surely they will be out of business if NBP goes ahead with current numbers and FTTH....their wireless solution wont be a patch on FTTH.

If they start offering packages at half the price of what they're offering now, they'd still have a good market. FTTH is too expensive for a lot of homes.

If they stick with their current pricing ... then .... meh !

/M

KOR101 · 26-01-2018 11:45am

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

It's at this stage AFAIK.

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/communications/topics/Broadband/national-broadband-plan/state-intervention/Pages/Procurement.aspx

Hopefully there are some leaks to the papers explaining what the latest hold up is.

Eir is going to get a new CEO and a new board that reflects the ownership change.

The company cannot have meaningful engagement on the tender until the new management is in place and have made decisions about their strategic choices which is going to take a while.

turbbo · 26-01-2018 12:20pm

Marlow wrote: »

If they start offering packages at half the price of what they're offering now, they'd still have a good market. FTTH is too expensive for a lot of homes.

If they stick with their current pricing ... then .... meh !

/M

Good point - there is certainly a lot of price gouging going on. FTTH seems to be certainly just that - very expensive.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 26-01-2018 12:26pm

KOR101 wrote: »

Eir is going to get a new CEO and a new board that reflects the ownership change.

The company cannot have meaningful engagement on the tender until the new management is in place and have made decisions about their strategic choices which is going to take a while.

Good point. Also my source claims that enet are not happy.

eNet are threatening to bail the NBP and not tender owing to push back against the scale of wireless deployments they propose and to go to court looking for the €10m they spent on the NBP to date. (lets not go into the MAN contract extension worth over €10m that was gifted to them by Naughten last year shall we?).

turbbo · 26-01-2018 12:30pm

Easy to see why - but they went in with both feet I've no doubt they'll get burned.

listermint · 27-01-2018 6:27am

Well look no doubt we'll see election time soon. Put this as a front topic on the doorstep and via email.

It's discussed in government as an after thought whenever a random reporter queries it however it should be on the minds of any local TD outside of Dublin.

That's on us to do that

KOR101 · 28-01-2018 9:41pm

This really belongs here......

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/new-law-to-slash-rural-broadband-plan-costs-36537412.html

The Cush · 28-01-2018 11:14pm

KOR101 wrote: »

This really belongs here......

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/new-law-to-slash-rural-broadband-plan-costs-36537412.html

Related, Comreg's Decision on the Wholesale Local Access & Wholesale Central Access Market Analyses consultation is due this quarter.

ED E · 29-01-2018 12:33am

Seems like Naughten is trying to use a hammer with a screw on this one, primary legislation is not the place. COMREG have and are doing the legwork here and the legal battle will just add delays.

Johnboy1951 · 29-01-2018 1:17am

ED E wrote: »

Seems like Naughten is trying to use a hammer with a screw on this one, primary legislation is not the place. COMREG have and are doing the legwork here and the legal battle will just add delays.

Did yer daddy never tell ye? ..... hammer is the tool for driving screws and the screwdriver for taking them out

Dero · 29-01-2018 2:43pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm genuinely worried that everyone is laying the groundwork for a cop-out wireless solution, with a percentage of fibre in the easiest areas as a figleaf.

Mark my words: if there's a wireless solution, it will go through the inevitable stages in short order: the first few early adopters will be delighted, then it will be accepted as "better than what we had" as it gets busier, then it will start to creak under the strain of a demand it can't possibly cope with, then it will quickly be overtaken by the orders of magnitude faster services that will be available over fibre, then we'll have a new digital divide and there will be pressure on a future government to subsidise some proper future-proof infrastructure.

I'm blue in the face saying it: wireless is not infrastructure. Anyone who tells you wireless is infrastructure is either a snake oil salesman, or someone who has been gulled by one. There are no exceptions.

I wish I could thank this post a thousand times. Nail hit firmly on the head (No Denis, it's not a screw).

As a somewhat related aside, the Imagine thread demonstrates a sadly accurate analogue of your "inevitable stages of wireless Internet" above.

turbbo · 29-01-2018 4:41pm

ED E wrote: »

Seems like Naughten is trying to use a hammer with a screw on this one, primary legislation is not the place. COMREG have and are doing the legwork here and the legal battle will just add delays.

COMREG are about as useless as a fart in the wind - so don't know why you'd have any faith in them?
Also I would assume that Naughten is NOT operating solely on any of it - pretty sure the dept. would be calling the shots he's just a figurehead who'd rather be minister for something else, and he's been advised this is the best path forward. One thing as a bystander watching is there seems to be a lot of mistrust of Eir and it's not before time either.

ED E · 29-01-2018 7:46pm

turbbo wrote: »

COMREG are about as useless as a fart in the wind - so don't know why you'd have any faith in them?
Also I would assume that Naughten is NOT operating solely on any of it - pretty sure the dept. would be calling the shots he's just a figurehead who'd rather be minister for something else, and he's been advised this is the best path forward. One thing as a bystander watching is there seems to be a lot of mistrust of Eir and it's not before time either.

Thats not really true.

Joe Soap thinks of Comreg as the Small Claims Court for telcos, thats somewhat within their remit. Primarily they work on the macro level, the CFLMP/Spectrum Allocations/Compliance Checks/FM/USO/AFL/Tetra+112 etc. They do an ok job at these, nothing super, but get by. Making a fortune from spectrum awards is wrong IMO, but so be it.

So when Joe Soap has a problem with a work order delaying works for Eir and complains to COMREG to get little satisfaction in return he will proclaim "COMREG ARE ****!!!!!!!" but thats not at all relevant to NBP discussions.

9726_9726 · 29-01-2018 11:35pm

I honestly can't see this Bill standing up. The regulator has already set access pricing on a private company with SMP. If the Government tries to come in with primary legislation to circumvent this, to suit itself - based on a new requirement *it has*, it hasn't a hope of standing up.

If they actually succeed (highly unlikely) in bringing this in and survive a (legitimate) legal challenge from Eir, SIRO will be able to sue them for moving the goalposts for the benefit of Enet, after SIRO had left the table.

Actually, doing this at all is clearly for the benefit of Enet.

All of this will be very, very, shaky under EU SAG. The smell of desperation is palpable. The whole concept of the state aiding the build-out of a network that *it doesn't own* is very very problematic. Two years ago, I said that this would end up worse than water charges.

If they had been able to afford (yeah right) to build a green-field open access network, offered to everyone on an equal basis, owned by the state and not favouring anyone over anyone else, then that would have been far more straightforward. Ireland needs this broadband issue fixed for once and for all. Maybe they should have borrowed a huge amount to build it out....

I'd nearly call it at this stage.... time of death.... 2018.

The Cush · 30-01-2018 12:13am

9726_9726 wrote: »

I honestly can't see this Bill standing up. The regulator has already set access pricing on a private company with SMP. If the Government tries to come in with primary legislation to circumvent this, to suit itself - based on a new requirement *it has*, it hasn't a hope of standing up.

I assume this primary legislation is being developed on the back of Comreg's impending Decision on wholesale local and central access pricing.

BarryM · 30-01-2018 8:05am

9726_9726 wrote: »

I honestly can't see this Bill standing up. The regulator has already set access pricing on a private company with SMP. If the Government tries to come in with primary legislation to circumvent this, to suit itself - based on a new requirement *it has*, it hasn't a hope of standing up.

If they actually succeed (highly unlikely) in bringing this in and survive a (legitimate) legal challenge from Eir, SIRO will be able to sue them for moving the goalposts for the benefit of Enet, after SIRO had left the table.

Actually, doing this at all is clearly for the benefit of Enet.

All of this will be very, very, shaky under EU SAG. The smell of desperation is palpable. The whole concept of the state aiding the build-out of a network that *it doesn't own* is very very problematic. Two years ago, I said that this would end up worse than water charges.

If they had been able to afford (yeah right) to build a green-field open access network, offered to everyone on an equal basis, owned by the state and not favouring anyone over anyone else, then that would have been far more straightforward. Ireland needs this broadband issue fixed for once and for all. Maybe they should have borrowed a huge amount to build it out....

I'd nearly call it at this stage.... time of death.... 2018.

An inevitable result of the greed when selling Eircom.

The intelligent "sale" would have been to sell the access infrastructure NOT the physical infrastructure.

Future participants would then be required to invest in the common network.

BTW, I continually wonder why the ESB, as a wholly owned national entity, owning a shared infrastructure, has not been required to participate in the NBP? The figleaf is, presumably, that it is "private"?

turbbo · 30-01-2018 10:47am

BarryM wrote: »

BTW, I continually wonder why the ESB, as a wholly owned national entity, owning a shared infrastructure, has not been required to participate in the NBP? The figleaf is, presumably, that it is "private"?

Often wondered the same thing - guessing it's cost or bottom line that is preventing the gov. from pushing them into it. But it would seem like the logical thing to do.

KOR101 · 30-01-2018 11:57am

9726_9726 wrote: »

I'd nearly call it at this stage.... time of death.... 2018.

Taken together with Varadkar's talk of struggles with the contract and Naughton saying the current route would never have been his choice, there is certainly an air of desperation about. Although I'm sure The Cush is right about pending Comreg changes.

We need a miracle at this point!

turbbo · 30-01-2018 12:09pm

KOR101 wrote: »

Taken together with Varadkar's talk of struggles with the contract and Naughton saying the current route would never have been his choice, there is certainly an air of desperation about. Although I'm sure The Cush is right about pending Comreg changes.

We need a miracle at this point!

It's legal battle after legal battle that is causing all the hold ups. There is money to be made quiet obviously - but there won't be much money made or spent on infrastructure if they keep spending on lawyers.

dashoonage · 31-01-2018 3:18pm

Time of death.

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/national-broadband-plan-in-crisis-as-eir-poised-to-quit-process-36552103.html

tsue921i8wljb3 · 31-01-2018 3:19pm

dashoonage wrote: »

Time of death.

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/national-broadband-plan-in-crisis-as-eir-poised-to-quit-process-36552103.html

Disaster.

turbbo · 31-01-2018 3:20pm

dashoonage wrote: »

Time of death.

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/national-broadband-plan-in-crisis-as-eir-poised-to-quit-process-36552103.html

The wording is significant - "poised" - meaning that they haven't - so it's a non-story so far.

ednwireland · 31-01-2018 3:25pm

So basically that 200 yard gap from the end of eir ftth to my house is never going to be bridged.

Johnboy1951 · 31-01-2018 3:29pm

Not a lot Gov can do if eir's new owners decide to withdraw.

All it does for me is to highlight yet again the folly of rolling out basic infrastructure owned by commercial entities.

Regardless of cost the fibre roll out should have been in public ownership from the beginning.

I doubt that is an option now though, with eir and Siro rolling out fibre to what they deem 'commercially viable' areas.

If eir does pull out then I hope the gov move quickly to force eir/Siro to connect everybody in the areas they cover if requested, with no excuses allowed for not doing so .......... and move even quicker to do a public owned roll out for the rest of the country.

...... then I wake up and realise they have no intention of doing things right ....

turbbo · 31-01-2018 3:31pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Not a lot Gov can do if eir's new owners decide to withdraw.

All it does for me is to highlight yet again the folly of rolling out basic infrastructure owned by commercial entities.

Regardless of cost the fibre roll out should have been in public ownership from the beginning.

I doubt that is an option now though, with eir and Siro rolling out fibre to what they deem 'commercially viable' areas.

If eir does pull out then I hope the gov move quickly to force eir/Siro to connect everybody in the areas they cover if requested, with no excuses allowed for not doing so .......... and move even quicker to do a public owned roll out for the rest of the country.

...... then I wake up and realise they have no intention of doing things right ....

As somebody posted on here yesterday Siro/ESB should be doing it end of. Maybe that's exactly what will happen now.

Johnboy1951 · 31-01-2018 3:34pm

turbbo wrote: »

As somebody posted on here yesterday Siro/ESB should be doing it end of. Maybe that's exactly what will happen now.

I had high hopes of the ESB doing it ..... about 5 years ago I think ...... but apparently the ESB are not or at least were not interested in doing so.

turbbo · 31-01-2018 3:36pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I had high hopes of the ESB doing it ..... about 5 years ago I think ...... but apparently the ESB are not or at least were not interested in doing so.

When there's cash - ESB will be there believe me. Fibre in hand!:D

tsue921i8wljb3 · 31-01-2018 3:43pm

I wonder how much this threat of quitting has to do with the new legislation being proposed. Has the legislation come about because the Department knew eir were likely to pull out or are eir threatening to pull out because of the legislation.

turbbo · 31-01-2018 3:45pm

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

I wonder how much this threat of quitting has to do with the new legislation being proposed. Has the legislation come about because the Department knew eir were likely to pull out or are eir threatening to pull out because of the legislation.

I'd assume that it's part of it. But also could be just new ownership having zero interest in the NBP?

turbbo · 31-01-2018 4:08pm

Looks like Eir are leaking this to the news - so it kinda stinks of $hit. See somebody posted a silicon republic link over on another thread with the same story. Presume Eir are throwing the toys out of the pram after the depts latest plans on pricing. Would love to see them fupp off to be honest - parasites.

garroff · 31-01-2018 4:09pm

Eir withdraws from government broadband scheme.
The sound you hear is the merde hitting the fan.

turbbo · 31-01-2018 4:11pm

garroff wrote: »

Eir withdraws from government broadband scheme.
The sound you hear is the merde hitting the fan.

All of this should have happened 3 years ago. It is painfully slow.
Too many cute hoors trying to outwit each other. lol somebody call Richard Moat - hear he's in the Bahamas.

Gonzo · 31-01-2018 4:13pm

If Eir quit than I think it's game over for a realistic and quality future-proofed NBP. Of course Imagine will try to step in and 'rescue' or offer their solution. The last 10 pages of the Imagine LTE Rural Broadband thread is proof that Imagine and any other wireless operator should not be let anywhere near any broadband plan.

ezra_ · 31-01-2018 4:14pm

Does this mean that FTTH lines that have begun but not yet completed will stall?

Or that no new work will commence?

BarryM · 31-01-2018 4:15pm

turbbo wrote: »

BarryM wrote: »

BTW, I continually wonder why the ESB, as a wholly owned national entity, owning a shared infrastructure, has not been required to participate in the NBP? The figleaf is, presumably, that it is "private"?

Often wondered the same thing - guessing it's cost or bottom line that is preventing the gov. from pushing them into it. But it would seem like the logical thing to do.

Maybe, but I suspect the real reason is the ESB pays its owner, the Minister, a substantial "dividend" every year, in the millions. Smells of Dept of Finance meddling.
The really logical thing is that the ESB has a line into every house in the country, properly managed it could be providing a whole range of services. Admittedly it requires some tweaking but today's technology can provide that. OTOH they haven't even got anywhere with intelligent metering, which would save them millions.
Several turf battles I'd say, is the real reason, never mind the economic value to the country.

NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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