Galway group/club on N59

Foyler · 24-11-2014 2:00am #1

Lads & ladies I'll start by saying I'm a cyclist and infrequent triathlete and this is not meant to be inflammatory.
Like most on here I've experienced a worrying increase in motoring aggression/close calls in the last couple of years, some of which is caused by motorists getting frustrated getting stuck behind ever more sportifs, charity spins and Sunday morning mamils

I had an accident just last Sunday where I was completely in the wrong and ended up going over the bonnet of an avensis coming down the sky rd, killing my lovely parlee in the process.
Thankfully despite for the first time in months not wearing a helmet (whole other can of worms), I escaped unscathed, apart from a small bit of road rash, a bruised shoulder and wounded pride.

I live in and cycle on the roads of connemara for kicks, mostly solo and have covered most of them in the last 5 years, so am mostly interested in trying to live and let live in the cyclist v's motorist divide and maybe improve things if I can by signaling traffic when to overtake or not as the case may be, moving to single file when out in groups to allow easier and safer passes?

I'd consider myself more a petrolhead than a cyclist but still think I have a balanced enough view on the issue.

Now to the point of my post, I was heading to Galway today with a bunch of young lads that I coach for an u16 rugby match and passed a group heading west on the Galway side of mamm cross.
There was a line of maybe 12 very pissed off looking motorists behind you on what would normally be a quiet time on the road, meaning a lot of them had been there for a good while.
No doubt due to the limited opportunities for the average motorist and car to overtake 1 car let alone a car followed by 30 odd cyclists spread right across the lane.

judging by the gentle enough pace and the way they were spread across the road to at least 3 wide and using all the lane, I don't think it was a race. It may well have been a small charity ride but that doesn't change the rules or common courtesies.

Here's a few suggestions.

* maybe don't choose a national route and popular day trip for your Sunday gallop.
There are other better options north and east of the city and west of moycullen which is relatively safe to get to and better designed to hold the extra traffic.
* the scenery and roads out here are fab, if a little dead, why not plan a spin where you meet at ma'am cross and take your pick of some epic journeys south or north. I appreciate there are logistical issues for a weekly spin but it doesn't have to be every week and it would be worth it anyway if only for the peace of only meeting a car every 2/3 k instead of every 30'seconds.
* if you're going to have a car riding shotgun why not have them behind you where they can warn oncoming motorists of a slow moving group and also possibly signal with arms or indicator when it is safe for motorists to pass. I'm struggling to think of much benefit to having the car ahead but I'm sure someone will point some out.
* don't give motorists an excuse to call joe Duffy by continuously ( I have to assume you didn't put on the display of selfishness just for me ) breaking the rules of the road by cycling 3 and more abreast and going against the rsa ad which warns motorists that they may encounter groups of cyclists 2 abreast. I'm no fan of the rsa btw but they are trying and have the budget to inform the masses.
* maybe split the club up into 2/3 smaller groups with a reasonable space between to allow cars and motorists averse to overtaking to get by.
Having done the odd sportif I can appreciate the nice, warm fuzzy feeling a group gives through safety in numbers & owning the road space, but that doesn't mean you can ignore carry on as if yo're in a race with closed roads, if anything you should be more mindful when in a group.

There's more but it's been a long day and I'm hoarse and tired after the match and spending 4 hours in a&e with 2 of the lads.

I'll finish by saying if you'd been heading the other way and our bus had gotten inevitably stuck behind you and caused us to be late for the match, I'd have been livid and given ye an earful out the window for what it's worth. I'd only been pleading with the lads all week to be on time for once to allow enough time for a proper warm up etc.

Well boo fcuking hoo you may well say, however I've no doubt there are lots of folks with more pressing appointments than me. Drive a mile or 2 in their shoes and imagine you're late for work, going to hospital for any number or potentially urgent reasons, trying to get to a match or home to watch the telly, whatever.
Then you end up stuck behind you guys for mile after mile doing 30k if your lucky and there's no wind. How would you then react the next time you came upon a cyclist?

This kind of 'entitled' selfish behaviour really doesn't help folks....

I'm sure most of you won't bother reading through all that waffle but if you regularly cycle in groups anywhere in Ireland I'd ask you to at least glance through the bullet points.

TonyStark · 24-11-2014 8:29am

Hopefully you've learned your lesson and you will wear a helmet going forward. You had a very lucky escape not to have busted head or picked up a more serious brain injury. I wish you a speedy recovery ;-)

Weepsie · 24-11-2014 8:40am

You say there are limited opportunities for them to overtake even a car , so maybe they were aware of this and thinking of their own safety to prevent any silly or close overtakes.

I actually had the opposite yesterday when I had to slow down for cars ahead that were going painfully slow and it wasn't safe to overtake anywhere.

For now I'll reach for the popcorn and sit back

Idleater · 24-11-2014 8:40am

TonyStark wrote: »

Hopefully you've learned your lesson and you will wear a helmet going forward. You had a very lucky escape not to have busted head or picked up a more serious brain injury. I wish you a speedy recovery ;-)

I don't know, based on the remainder of the post I suggest that the op gets themselves checked out in hospital for concussion.

Micilin Muc · 24-11-2014 9:18am

Another Connemara cyclist here. I can understand why the N59 is used for trips out west. The only other alternative, the R336 coast road, is lethal, at least as far as Indreabhán. I live in An Spidéal and after 3 months of commuting to the city via the coast road, I refuse to take that route in or out of town on safety grounds. The N59 section from Moycullen to town is far safer, bar two short sections.

3 abreast is illegal, though, and I would have no problem complaining to the club. There's a club spin that regularly flies through An Spidéal without braking but still shouting warnings. I wonder if it's the same club.

Mycroft H · 24-11-2014 9:22am

I think people do need to adopt a live and let live attitude on those type of roads. No need to be taking the piss but it needs to be balanced with defensive cycling. Think that could be agreeed.

Micilin Muc · 24-11-2014 9:23am

Also, better routes north of the city?! The N84 Headford Road is even narrower than the N59!

ford2600 · 24-11-2014 9:47am

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Also, better routes north of the city?! The N84 Headford Road is even narrower than the N59!

Is the coast road know locally as Europe's longest street? Beautiful view but planning leaves a bit too be desired.

Headford road on a bike no thanks

JBokeh · 24-11-2014 10:41am

I can see where the OP is coming from,by me it is a bit of a gamble trying to drive somewhere on a Sunday morning,some times it would be an endless line of cyclists,and other times you'll encounter only one There is maybe 2 places to pass them on the road,and sod's law would tell you that there is usually a car coming at you in them places. It used drive me bonkers but since I started getting really into cycling it doesn't bother me so much. TBF a good few would actually wave you past if someone can see up ahead. It can add serious time onto a journey if you're not expecting it,but if you're into bikes it is nice to see what everyone is riding

The most unnerving thing is coming against a pair of cyclists where one cyclist is glued to the white line in the middle of the road,surely if you're to leave at least the width of a door when overtaking a cyclist it would be advisable to do it coming against them too.

Never been so sickened by a group of cyclists as yesterday,I was behind a chap with a horse box,and we came onto a group of around 7 cyclists doing about 24km/h on the flat for around 5km - 7 km,chap with the horse box hadn't a prayer of passing them,but managed just before we came into the village,We stop at a traffic lights and the whole lot filtered past the cars that had just overtaken them,at least one of them complimented me on bike bike which was on the rack,so that made my day at the same time

Got to look at it from their point of view too,Sundays tend to be the quietest day,when the most people are free so it makes sense to go out that day for a bit of punishment in the morning and go about your usual business for the rest of the day. You'll never please everyone,and you'll find that most cyclists are courteous to drivers and drivers courteous to cyclists,and when you meet a bad example they stick in the mind more than the numerous good examples you've met

galwaycyclist · 24-11-2014 12:35pm

It was Sunday morning - get over yourself. Everybody who uses the N59 on a Sunday knows there will be cyclists out training.

If you didn't then you know now.

Macy0161 · 24-11-2014 12:55pm

Foyler wrote: »

I'm sure most of you won't bother reading through all that waffle but if you regularly cycle in groups anywhere in Ireland I'd ask you to at least glance through the bullet points.

As someone who lives on one of the main weekend routes for groups out of Dublin, I hope people just ignore the bullet points! I mainly drive at the weekends (or off road cycle). Nothing more annoying than a fractured group that takes several passes to overtake, with the added complication of fitting in between the sub groups. Hate it as a driver, as it adds to the danger for the cyclists/

30 riders in single file? Can't see too many overtaking opportunities for that. Group of 30 3 abreast is only 10 riders deep. Much easier to overtake.

The only logic for single file, smaller groups etc is so that drivers can do an unsafe overtake leaving insufficient distance to the cyclists. You can either see far enough ahead to cross the centre line, or you can't and shouldn't overtake. It reads like a charter for letting motorists squeeze cyclists out of it tbh!

24-11-2014 1:01pm

ITT: People getting really angry about being slightly inconvenienced.

AstraMonti · 24-11-2014 1:18pm

So as you were passing by (with an average speed of lets say 60?) you looked each of those 12 cars and determined that they were pissed off. Sir, I am impressed, Sherlock Holmes needs your help, please contact him asap for a new job opportunity.

Zyzz · 24-11-2014 1:51pm

Foyler wrote: »

Lads & ladies I'll start by saying I'm a cyclist and infrequent triathlete and this is not meant to be inflammatory.
Like most on here I've experienced a worrying increase in motoring aggression/close calls in the last couple of years, some of which is caused by motorists getting frustrated getting stuck behind ever more sportifs, charity spins and Sunday morning mamils

I had an accident just last Sunday where I was completely in the wrong and ended up going over the bonnet of an avensis coming down the sky rd, killing my lovely parlee in the process.
Thankfully despite for the first time in months not wearing a helmet (whole other can of worms), I escaped unscathed, apart from a small bit of road rash, a bruised shoulder and wounded pride.

I live in and cycle on the roads of connemara for kicks, mostly solo and have covered most of them in the last 5 years, so am mostly interested in trying to live and let live in the cyclist v's motorist divide and maybe improve things if I can by signaling traffic when to overtake or not as the case may be, moving to single file when out in groups to allow easier and safer passes?

I'd consider myself more a petrolhead than a cyclist but still think I have a balanced enough view on the issue.

Now to the point of my post, I was heading to Galway today with a bunch of young lads that I coach for an u16 rugby match and passed a group heading west on the Galway side of mamm cross.
There was a line of maybe 12 very pissed off looking motorists behind you on what would normally be a quiet time on the road, meaning a lot of them had been there for a good while.
No doubt due to the limited opportunities for the average motorist and car to overtake 1 car let alone a car followed by 30 odd cyclists spread right across the lane.

judging by the gentle enough pace and the way they were spread across the road to at least 3 wide and using all the lane, I don't think it was a race. It may well have been a small charity ride but that doesn't change the rules or common courtesies.

Here's a few suggestions.

* maybe don't choose a national route and popular day trip for your Sunday gallop.
There are other better options north and east of the city and west of moycullen which is relatively safe to get to and better designed to hold the extra traffic.
* the scenery and roads out here are fab, if a little dead, why not plan a spin where you meet at ma'am cross and take your pick of some epic journeys south or north. I appreciate there are logistical issues for a weekly spin but it doesn't have to be every week and it would be worth it anyway if only for the peace of only meeting a car every 2/3 k instead of every 30'seconds.
* if you're going to have a car riding shotgun why not have them behind you where they can warn oncoming motorists of a slow moving group and also possibly signal with arms or indicator when it is safe for motorists to pass. I'm struggling to think of much benefit to having the car ahead but I'm sure someone will point some out.
* don't give motorists an excuse to call joe Duffy by continuously ( I have to assume you didn't put on the display of selfishness just for me ) breaking the rules of the road by cycling 3 and more abreast and going against the rsa ad which warns motorists that they may encounter groups of cyclists 2 abreast. I'm no fan of the rsa btw but they are trying and have the budget to inform the masses.
* maybe split the club up into 2/3 smaller groups with a reasonable space between to allow cars and motorists averse to overtaking to get by.
Having done the odd sportif I can appreciate the nice, warm fuzzy feeling a group gives through safety in numbers & owning the road space, but that doesn't mean you can ignore carry on as if yo're in a race with closed roads, if anything you should be more mindful when in a group.

There's more but it's been a long day and I'm hoarse and tired after the match and spending 4 hours in a&e with 2 of the lads.

I'll finish by saying if you'd been heading the other way and our bus had gotten inevitably stuck behind you and caused us to be late for the match, I'd have been livid and given ye an earful out the window for what it's worth. I'd only been pleading with the lads all week to be on time for once to allow enough time for a proper warm up etc.

Well boo fcuking hoo you may well say, however I've no doubt there are lots of folks with more pressing appointments than me. Drive a mile or 2 in their shoes and imagine you're late for work, going to hospital for any number or potentially urgent reasons, trying to get to a match or home to watch the telly, whatever.
Then you end up stuck behind you guys for mile after mile doing 30k if your lucky and there's no wind. How would you then react the next time you came upon a cyclist?

This kind of 'entitled' selfish behaviour really doesn't help folks....

I'm sure most of you won't bother reading through all that waffle but if you regularly cycle in groups anywhere in Ireland I'd ask you to at least glance through the bullet points.

Theres your problem.

TonyStark · 24-11-2014 3:15pm

Foyler wrote: »

...improve things if I can by signaling traffic when to overtake or not as the case may be....

This is something I would never do. I would advise people against doing that.

I am not a Garda I am a road user, if a person sitting behind their steering wheel cannot judge when it is safe and not safe to overtake you as a cyclist are not going to help by waving and flapping your arms around... you may feel like you are doing your bit and not holding up traffic and you also may think that you are being courteous etc. As a driver myself I prefer to meet cyclists that act in a deliberate predictable manner. That way I can maneuver around them safely. You are not a tractor that impedes vision of the road ahead or a slow moving articulate lorry. As a cyclist you are part of traffic on the road, not a hindrance or an inconvenience. It is an un-wise perception to hold up.

Aside from removing your concentration from the road and using your arms to gesticulate you could be knocked off easily enough, I think it opens up a litigious can of worms. If the person overtaking you had an accident that could argue it was based on your instructions and you could be held liable personally for any damage or injury they may incur as they were operating at your instruction. I'd prefer not to test the case.

ROK ON · 24-11-2014 5:32pm

I feel some sympathy for the OP.
I live in an area that particularly during the summer is frequented by lots of cyclists. Not a weekend goes by when there isn't a race, organised sportif or organised group or disorganised chaos. I like the fact that where I live attracts in all manner of cyclists.
To be fair many there is IMHO an increasing amount of ill disciplined behaviour on the roads (the worst ironically was in a groupetto in the Ras that had been dropped by the cavalcade and safety car a few years back. However this year a charity ride from Cork to the Beara peninsula took up the entire road (ie anywhere from two to six abreast) spread out over a distance from Kealkill to Glengariff.
With this type of erratic behaviour it becomes simply too unsafe to pass. It is more than a simple inconvenience to drive a 20-30kph for a 15-20km stretch of road. It would not matter whether it was a cycle or a tractor ahead.
Also while I expect to see groups of cyclists during the summer I do not believe that it is considerate to operate in the manner I described above.
Also for the cyclist it is not much fun to have a car chug behind you continually - when the shoe is on the other foot I pull to the side and wave cars past when the opportunity provides (road widens for example, hard shoulder etc.).

The two cases that I cited above, the Ras and a the charity ride - the first was well behind the advertised schedule for rolling road closures and the second was not advertised. I couldn't avoid either because I didn't reasonably expect them to be there.

I like to think that whether on bike or car, if more of us act with patience and consideration then we will get likewise back.
By all means cyclists should assert road position, but with the proviso that when opportunity exists to safely tighten up to wave through traffic that is queueing behind that that courtesy should be offered.
Decency I would think.

sconhome · 24-11-2014 5:59pm

Zyzz wrote: »

Theres your problem.

Ah we're not that bad. :P

i_surge · 24-11-2014 6:15pm

Disappointed by the snide and sarcastic responses here by fellow cyclists. Foyler is completely right, a group riding three abreast at snail's pace on a main road is illegal, lacking respect and completely taking the piss.

The years back comment about the lads in the ras is a bit ott, outside the marshalled zone yes but still racing for the time limit and deserving some leeway and respect surely.

galwaycyclist · 24-11-2014 6:48pm

i_surge wrote: »

Disappointed by the snide and sarcastic responses here by fellow cyclists. Foyler is completely right, a group riding three abreast at snail's pace on a main road is illegal, lacking respect and completely taking the piss.

The years back comment about the lads in the ras is a bit ott, outside the marshalled zone yes but still racing for the time limit and deserving some leeway and respect surely.

Theres your problem, its not a "main road" its the N59 on a Sunday morning.

It may be a "main road" on a Monday morning or a Friday morning.

But on a Sunday morning its a quite road that also gets used by cycling clubs to have a spin at a time when they are causing the least possible disruption to the usual users of the route.

Anyone that uses the N59 on a Sunday knows that you will meet cyclists.

Asking people to drive out of Galway to Maam Cross before going for a spin is my view ridiculous and indicates a profoundly selfish attitude to a public road that was built as an amenity for all the public.

I am not a member of any of the clubs involved - my main form of recreational excercise is hillwalking which takes place in Connemara most Sundays. Most Sundays the hillwalking club bus uses the N59 and most Sundays it is held behind cyclists for a while on the way out.

Nobody has a hissy fit about it.

The driver just waits until there is space to pass. It is not rocket science.

DirkVoodoo · 24-11-2014 9:25pm

I spent many summers out in Clifden/Ballyconneely and know the drive from Galway to Maam Cross very well.

I can remember a lot of near misses from people overtaking like lunatics on very undulating roads and frankly it's not a road I would like to cycle.

I wasn't there, so I can't comment on how the group was riding and should they have tightened up or split into smaller groups of 10.

What I do know is that I would agree that this is a road that I wouldn't take on a Sunday if I was in a hurry to get from A to B. I don't remember many bikes, but tourists, slow drivers, tractors and caravans made this a very slow and frustrating road to drive at times. Especially pre-motorway Dublin to Galway.

I really resent the tone of the OP, this "get off the roads" attitude really grinds my gears. If you're in a rush, leave earlier. Taking to the internet to issue instruction (in bullet points no less, to emphasise the importance of your journey) and ask that people not get in your way is a fairly arrogant position. Please, cycle somewhere else was the gist of it.

Frankly the speed limits on that road are a joke, you would be doing well to get anywhere near 80/100 km/hr but that doesn't seem to deter most people.

TonyStark · 24-11-2014 11:16pm

i_surge wrote: »

Disappointed by the snide and sarcastic responses here by fellow cyclists. Foyler is completely right, a group riding three abreast at snail's pace on a main road is illegal, lacking respect and completely taking the piss.

The years back comment about the lads in the ras is a bit ott, outside the marshalled zone yes but still racing for the time limit and deserving some leeway and respect surely.

I think the snide comments are a product of a seemingly patronizing first post.

There always seems to be a pattern with the anti-cyclist jibber jabber.

Step 1. Introduce yourself as a cyclist in some form,

Step 2. Outline a scenario where you were inconvenienced by cyclists that includes some illegal behavior on the cyclists to embellish the point.

Step 3. Suggest a biased unworkable one side solution whose core is for cyclists to "stop causing delays" or to "get off the road completely".

Step 4. End the post in a manner where you suggest that Step 3. was correct and that we are all somehow road brothers and road sisters...

There is never a sentiment of mutual understanding or respect nor a prospective that cyclists are vulnerable road users even though at first the post is disguised as such.

It would appear from the OP that cyclists are somehow asking for trouble for not acceding defensive road positions to motor vehicles. Or from his own suggestions that they should keep off that stretch of road and centralize their activities with inconvenience to themselves far far away in order not to cause a delay... a rationale I just cannot fathom.

i_surge · 25-11-2014 2:33am

TonyStark wrote: »

I think the snide comments are a product of a seemingly patronizing first post.

There always seems to be a pattern with the anti-cyclist jibber jabber.

Step 1. Introduce yourself as a cyclist in some form,

Step 2. Outline a scenario where you were inconvenienced by cyclists that includes some illegal behavior on the cyclists to embellish the point.

Step 3. Suggest a biased unworkable one side solution whose core is for cyclists to "stop causing delays" or to "get off the road completely".

Step 4. End the post in a manner where you suggest that Step 3. was correct and that we are all somehow road brothers and road sisters...

There is never a sentiment of mutual understanding or respect nor a prospective that cyclists are vulnerable road users even though at first the post is disguised as such.

It would appear from the OP that cyclists are somehow asking for trouble for not acceding defensive road positions to motor vehicles. Or from his own suggestions that they should keep off that stretch of road and centralize their activities with inconvenience to themselves far far away in order not to cause a delay... a rationale I just cannot fathom.

I know how the rants go and didn't get a get off the roads vibe from this one. More of a don't cycle like a bunch of fools vibe which is fair.

Cycling three abreast is not a defensive position..it is illegal and exactly the sort of behaviour that gets us all a bad name....and feeds the self rationalised bad behaviour of some drivers.

Choice of route is a grey area, but when I train with my club we generally choose roads conducive to cycling in peace and let others past when and where we can...just saying.

I've taken part in charity events where the support cars would have us pull in at a suitable spot for 30 seconds or so if there is a huge tailback. At touring pace that isn't much of a setback anyway.

Yarisbob · 25-11-2014 8:57am

You are absoluely spoilt for choice in Galway for places to cycle !

Bearna to Spiddle - No hard shoulder and 2 places to overtake
Galway to Maam Cross - No hard shoulder and 2 places to overtake
Galway to Headford - No hard shoulder and 2 places to overtake
Galway to Gort - Hard shoulder which is full of debris

As said before by galwaycyclist leave a bit earlier and take into account that you are going to meet cyclists, classic car runs, joggers, on a Sunday morning

Oh no hold on - we will all go out at 3am to 6am but then we will only be holding taxis and couriers up and we dont want to do that now do we.

galwaycyclist · 25-11-2014 12:07pm

I suspect that what happened in this case was that the driver or drivers immediately behind the cyclists may have been epecially cautious.

Possibly they were unfamiliar with the road and had no knowledge of the best places to overtake. Maybe they were tourists trying to get to grips with driving on the wrong side and roads that are much narrower and have more bends they were used to.

By hanging back such drivers would have blocked other drivers from overtaking at places where they might normally expect to.

I suspect the main problem the OP had was with prudent motoring rather than inconsiderate cycling.

Galway group/club on N59

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