Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Ben Affleck vs. Sam Harris & Bill Maher on Real Time

13567…11

Comments

  • #102
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Dave! wrote: »
    http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-strange-case-of-francis-collins



    A typically balanced and nuanced blog post by Harris reduced to a decontextualised soundbite to satisfy his dishonest and disingenuous detractors.

    Yep, sounds about right. A day in the life of Sam Harris. He must have the patience of a saint—I'd probably have retreated to a quiet life of academia if I was misrepresented by politically correct goons as frequently as he is.
    ... Sooo my paraphrase from memory was accurate. Thanks for linking!


    Any comment on his anti-Arab racism?


  • #103
    Standman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    ... Sooo my paraphrase from memory was accurate. Thanks for linking!


    Any comment on his anti-Arab racism?

    Do you honestly believe that quoted passage displays racism towards Arabs?


  • #104
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Standman wrote: »
    Do you honestly believe that quoted passage displays racism towards Arabs?

    Of Course not, his comments there where in the context of africans being less intelligent than Whites. You can observe his anti-arab racism through his advocacy of racially profiling Arabs.


  • #105
    Standman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Of Course not, his comments there where in the context of africans being less intelligent than Whites. You can observe his anti-arab racism through his advocacy of racially profiling Arabs.

    You may be mistaken there. I have read his blog posts about the issue and I can't find any mention of racially profiling Arabs. Do you have a link to where he stated that?


  • #106
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....I don't accept that it follows through to the next paragraph. If it did ("muslims = fundamentalists") its not exactly an improvement.
    He never called all muslims fundamentalists. Its like you have selective visual reading ability or something. He refers to Islamists, those that are far more fundamental in their integration of Islam into their lives than more laid back muslims. I cannot see anything offensive in the article. He is simply saying that the far right in places like the USA can appreciate the danger presented by the far right in Islamic countries better than some Liberals do because they understand how important religious faith is to them.

    If anything Sam is far too easy going on religion in general.


  • #107
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Of Course not, his comments there where in the context of africans being less intelligent than Whites. You can observe his anti-arab racism through his advocacy of racially profiling Arabs.

    Having slightly different intelligence across the global human demographics is not racism or bigotry. If it is true, then it is simply a scientific observation. If its false then its something that can be disproven and also a valid point as it allows for it to be discredited. An 'ought' is not necessarily derived from an 'is'.


  • #108
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    He never called all muslims fundamentalists. Its like you have selective visual reading ability or something. He refers to Islamists, those that are far more fundamental in their integration of Islam into their lives than more laid back muslims. I cannot see anything offensive in the article. He is simply saying that the far right in places like the USA can appreciate the danger presented by the far right in Islamic countries better than some Liberals do because they understand how important religious faith is to them.

    If anything Sam is far too easy going on religion in general.

    He was referring specxifically to immigrants in Europe.

    So you agree with these statements -

    "The erection of a mosque upon the ashes of this atrocity will also be viewed by many millions of Muslims as a victory — and as a sign that the liberal values of the West are synonymous with decadence and cowardice."

    "The outrage that Muslims feel over US and British foreign policy is primarily the product of theological concerns"


  • #109
    joseph brand
    Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    Nodin wrote: »
    Or indeed have a nice uniform, well tended. However those aside, you'll pardon me if I treat their "insights" as regards minorities etc with a wee bit of salt.

    Who's the minority? Muslims who number in the billions?


  • #110
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    joseph brand wrote: »
    Who's the minority? Muslims who number in the billions?

    If you read the post above yours....


  • #111
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    Nodin wrote: »
    He was referring specxifically to immigrants in Europe.

    So you agree with these statements -

    "The erection of a mosque upon the ashes of this atrocity will also be viewed by many millions of Muslims as a victory — and as a sign that the liberal values of the West are synonymous with decadence and cowardice."

    "The outrage that Muslims feel over US and British foreign policy is primarily the product of theological concerns"

    Can you provide me with the quote that demonstrates that?
    As far as the mosque is concerned, again I need to see the link to see his reasoning. 1. Its not a mosque, 2. Its not at ground zero. 3. I have had muslims act like that on YT, but I assume they are not representative of the group involved. 4. I can appreciate it is a sensitive subject on both sides. 5. As long as its legal for them to build their center, they have every right to do so. 6. The quran does make statements about its enemies that can be used to put that message across, in that it is a flag of victory, but then radical muslims have plenty of ammunition for fueling hate anyway so its largely a drop in an ocean.

    The other quote needs more context. From that alone I would not agree with him. What muslims is he referring to? Which policies? This sounds like a quotemine to me. I have heard Reza try to put words in Sam's mouth during his debate and Reza (much like Ben) is not listening to Sam at all. Religion fuels the conflict, but I doubt Sam believes it is the primary reason for it. It could be what sustains it however.

    You seem to think that I have to agree with Sam on everything he says if I agree with him on anything. No. Sam is far too forgiving to other religions outside of the abrahamic faiths in my opinion and he has other stances I don't agree with, but he does try to be as balanced as possible. Even when I don't agree, I don't see him as unreasonable, just mistaken.


  • Advertisement
  • #112
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    Can you provide me with the quote that demonstrates that?

    I already did.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92588125&postcount=85
    As far as the mosque is concerned, again I need to see the link to see his
    reasoning. 1. Its not a mosque, 2. Its not at ground zero. 3. I have had muslims
    act like that on YT, but I assume they are not representative of the group
    involved. 4. I can appreciate it is a sensitive subject on both sides. 5. As
    long as its legal for them to build their center, they have every right to do
    so. 6.

    Starts off with dragging in Satanism and gets all happy clappy from there....
    http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-mosque
    The other quote needs more context. From that alone I would not agree with him.
    What muslims is he referring to? Which policies? This sounds like a quotemine to me. I have heard Reza try to put words in Sam's mouth during his debate and Reza (much like Ben) is not listening to Sam at all. Religion fuels the conflict, but
    I doubt Sam believes it is the primary reason for it. It could be what sustains it however.


    Another nasty, vile piece of work here. Internet biscuit if you can spot the glaring ommissions.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/bombing-our-illusions_b_8615.html

    You seem to think that I have to agree with Sam on everything he says if I agree with him on anything. .............


    I'd suggest that the odd nugget of sense is taken out of context as far as Harris goes.


  • #113
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    Nodin wrote: »
    He was referring specxifically to immigrants in Europe.
    No he included those concerns. The majority of the article is dealing with radical Islamists in muslim countries. Seriously do you just see one sentence in isolation or what?

    Yes in the 2nd last paragraph of the article he refers to European situation and the issue with religious immigrants and the failure of multiculturalism.

    The proof that the article covers more than just europe should be "The SAME failure of liberalism is evident in Western Europe." Again his points are repeated across the spectrum, not just Europe and not just religious immigrants.

    Now let me ask a few questions.
    Have you read the quran? If so, do you not agree that it has some truly awful passages throughout the many surahs that affect how Muslims practice their faith?
    How is seeking acknowledgement of these passages as problems a bad thing for reform? The first step to recovery is to stop denying the problem.


  • #114
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    No he included those concerns. The majority of the article is dealing with radical Islamists in muslim countries. Seriously do you just see one sentence in isolation or what?

    Yes in the 2nd last paragraph of the article he refers to European situation and the issue with religious immigrants and the failure of multiculturalism.
    .

    Yes, he is referring to immigrants.

    I'm all for acknowledging problems. However there are too many problems with Harris for him to be any guide to them, or a solution.
    Have you read the quran?

    Nope, though in my defence I never got through more than a few pages of the Bible the few times I tried. The effort wasn't helped by the fact I thought it was bit of a pointless exercise, given that - like all religous texts - many readings of it are possible.


  • #115
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    That article on the mosque was interesting. Here are my thoughts.
    1. He was over the top on the issue with the mosque somewhat, and the laughable inclusion of satanism or truthers seem uncalled for and frankly fluff.
    2. He agrees that they can build it and no one should stop them, however he sees it in bad taste. But that is just his opinion, which he acknowledges.
    3. The German mosque was shut down as a hotbed for sedition? Interesting. Its not the first time I have heard of radical preachers being brought into mosques in europe. There have been complaints from young muslim themselves about this, and it has lead to some leaving the faith in disgust after joining it.
    4. The same point about the quran is raised and is valid.
    5. The issue with apologists is valid.
    6. The issue with Ayaan Hirsi Ali is certainly true in regard to the hate Muslims have towards her. You can check any article, interview or video that has her name on it and the comments below are almost entirely filled with hate, threats and abuse from muslims or support from non muslims of many types wishing her well.

    Conclusion: I think we can only wait to see what fruit the cultural center bears in NY. If its good, promoting tolerance and reform, then wonderful, if its the same cover for propaganda and seeks to spread lies about 9/11, then it will deserve to be shut down.


  • #116
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yes, he is referring to immigrants.

    I'm all for acknowledging problems. However there are too many problems with Harris for him to be any guide to them, or a solution.



    Nope, though in my defence I never got through more than a few pages of the Bible the few times I tried. The effort wasn't helped by the fact I thought it was bit of a pointless exercise, given that - like all religous texts - many readings of it are possible.

    Thanks for that response. It certainly makes a lot more sense in how you view Islam if you never read their sacred text. It is a boring read, I grant you, although not as bad as all that begatting in the bible. I do recommend reading it, at least to get a feel for it. It might give you insight to why we worry so much when apologists deny any action by Muslims that cause harm has anything to do with Islam and anything they do positively is entirely to do with Islam.


  • #117
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    Thanks for that response. It certainly makes a lot more sense in how you view Islam if you never read their sacred text. It is a boring read, I grant you, although not as bad as all that begatting in the bible. I do recommend reading it, at least to get a feel for it. It might give you insight to why we worry so much when apologists deny any action by Muslims that cause harm has anything to do with Islam and anything they do positively is entirely to do with Islam.


    As I stated before, one can read anything into that sort of text, and it appears that's more or less what goes on. And then theres the Hadiths etc.
    Michael OBrien wrote:
    The issue with Ayaan Hirsi Ali.......

    Bit of a chancer. Given the elements she hangs round with in the states, she wouldn't be on my Christmas list either.


  • #118
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    Nodin wrote: »
    As I stated before, one can read anything into that sort of text, and it appears that's more or less what goes on. And then theres the Hadiths etc.



    Bit of a chancer. Given the elements she hangs round with in the states, she wouldn't be on my Christmas list either.

    There is a fundamental difference between the hadiths and the quran.
    All hadiths are acknowledged as written by men and after Muhammed had died (so no way to double check their claims). There are muslims that have abandoned ALL of them. They can be argued as being "of that time" and interpretation is certainly possible and reform along with it.

    The quran is a different beast. If however you refuse to read it then you cannot understand what it means, and how truly awful it is. It is the Mein Kamf or Malleus Maleficarum of the 7th Century that people want to see applied in the 21st century. As I have said before, it is believed to be WRITTEN by the creator of the universe and revealed through an angel, recited and perfect for 1400 years by fanatics. Its adherence is drummed into every practicing muslim as they pray 5 times a day. Parents breath quotes from it into newborns ears so its the first thing they hear. Its authority is unquestioned and unquestionable by nearly every muslim that practices their faith. Those that try to place anything above it face accusations of Shirk, one of the greatest crimes a muslim can commit.

    You seem to judge by association. I have never had any reason to dislike her. But then you don't understand her at all do you or the cause she fights. Have you read her book Infidel?


  • #119
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    Nodin wrote: »
    As I stated before, one can read anything into that sort of text, and it appears that's more or less what goes on.
    You might wish to grasp another aspect of Islam that is often misunderstood.
    The aspect of lying AND the aspect of double speak.
    Lying is generally forbidden in Islam, except under 3 circumstances (you will generally not hear about them).
    1. If a muslim considers themselves at war, they are allowed to lie.
    2. If a muslim seeks to reach peace with someone over their religion they may lie.
    3. If it deals with marriage, for instance an argument between a husband and wife, lying is allowed to make peace.

    Again in Islam there is a division of the world, those that submit to Islam, and those that don't. An apologist can justify lying if he feels he is talking with an enemy, or if he seeks to make peace in a debate by soothing his opponent with falsehoods.
    The double speak is far more insidious as it relies on the gullibility of the listener. I have again read Muslim forums where this is recommended to young
    men in tricking parents of girls into believing they are not really religious to gain their permission to marry. They explain how to tell half truths, let the parent believe what they will, and afterwards, welllll, its too late then.

    The rules are simple, don't outright lie. This is allowed in defence of the faith or the promotion of it. Muhammed himself allowed this to occur and since Muhammed cannot do wrong (at least after he started his revelations), this is how it is justified.

    If someone says Islamic states have a death sentance (or something similar) for apostates due to scriptures.
    So an apologist can say "you cannot find a verse in the quran that demands the death of apostates" knowing that the hadiths call for it, and the quran has passages that deal with severe punishment of apostates and the awful faith that awaits them in the next life that give authority to those same hadiths. But the quran does not have a verse calling for the death of apostates so the apologist is technically not lying, but its misleading. However it might make 'peace' with his audience and show Islam in a good light.

    Another one would be saying that Islam does not encourage suicide (as in suicide bombings). This is true, suicide is a sin in Islam. However martydom is a virtue. Its a half truth, since technically the apologist is right, but the audience has been misinformed again.

    IF you don't read the quran you cannot grasp this properly.


  • #120
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Has Sam Harris said anything about Islam the we would have wished to but were unable to express about Catholicism in 1950/60's Ireland ?


  • Advertisement
  • #121
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Michael OBrien wrote: »

    The quran is a different beast. If however you refuse to read it then you cannot understand what it means, and how truly awful it is. It is the Mein Kamf or Malleus Maleficarum of the 7th Century that people want to see applied in the 21st century. As I have said before, it is believed to be WRITTEN by the creator of the universe and revealed through an angel, recited and perfect for 1400 years by fanatics. Its adherence is drummed into every practicing muslim as they pray 5 times a day. Parents breath quotes from it into newborns ears so its the first thing they hear. Its authority is unquestioned and unquestionable by nearly every muslim that practices their faith. Those that try to place anything above it face accusations of Shirk, one of the greatest crimes a muslim can commit.

    ..................?

    You were reasonable up to this.....

    Ye see, its the above kind of fear mongering crap that really gets down. There are over a Billion muslims. They are, the majority of them, clearly not disposed as you would have them.
    Michael OBrien wrote:
    You might wish to grasp another aspect of Islam that is often misunderstood.The aspect of lying AND the aspect of double speak.....................

    Ahh yes. No muslim baiter has ever, ever thrown that at me before. Not a one. And no way would somebody ever keep on with 'But you haven't read the Koran...' to give themselves an assumed authority.


  • #122
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »



    Bit of a chancer. Given the elements she hangs round with in the states, she wouldn't be on my Christmas list either.

    Can you elaborate on why she is a chancer or do you just dismiss out of hand everyone's opinion that does not confirm to your world view. I would say she is well qualified to speak on the dangers of religions and Islam especially given the upbringing she had. If she was a white, blond girl everyone would be calling her a racist.:rolleyes:


  • #123
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    Has Sam Harris said anything about Islam the we would have wished to but were unable to express about Catholicism in 1950/60's Ireland ?

    Fairly sure I never thought to call them uniquely evil, all catholic majority countries reacting on religious grounds to events and not on political grounds, mentioning catholic atrocities while conveniently forgetting others....I mean I would if I was a certain recently departed Reverend, but not as I'm me, no.


  • #124
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Can you elaborate on why she is a chancer or do you just dismiss out of hand everyone's opinion that does not confirm to your world view. I would say she is well qualified to speak on the dangers of religions and Islam especially given the upbringing she had. If she was a white, blond girl everyone would be calling her a racist.:rolleyes:

    Sorry? Where did I call her a racist?

    She is a chancer because there is no small doubt about her story. She also seems to take a hard line on illegal immigrants when she arrived in the states, which is rather amusing, given her own efforts in the Netherlands. One might wonder whether or not this was adopted to please her new neo conservative American friends in the "American Enterprise Insitute".


  • #125
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    Nodin wrote: »
    You were reasonable up to this.....

    Ye see, its the above kind of fear mongering crap that really gets down. There are over a Billion muslims. They are, the majority of them, clearly not disposed as you would have them.

    Ahh yes. No muslim baiter has ever, ever thrown that at me before. Not a one. And no way would somebody ever keep on with 'But you haven't read the Koran...' to give themselves an assumed authority.

    So asking you to read the book you are defending, and saying I have, is giving me assumed authority? Any person that is arguing about any book would be perfectly right in asking his opponent to read the book in question.
    This is like asking someone to read Genesis when arguing Creationism vs Astronomy and Biology. If the person who has not read it constantly defends it as being perfectly compatible with science but refuses to read it, where do you go from there?

    There may well be over a billion muslims, and I bet if you questioned ANY of them, provided they are practising muslims, they will tell you that they don't doubt the quran and they believe Muhammed was the true messenger of god.
    There are plenty of mass going christians that are wonderfully peaceful that will still tell you that its your fault for not believing in god that sends you to hell. Just because they are peaceful does not mean they don't believe horrible stuff, they just don't act on it. The source of this stuff is the quran.

    As far as the 3 exceptions to the rule for lying goes I get that from MUSLIM apologetic sites that seek to counter christian sites saying Muslims are allowed to lie all the time.

    But hey, if conspiracies are your thing, and you never fact check then what is the point.

    There are a lot of western muslims that are nominally muslim, many never read the quran fully, or the hadiths. Of course if they never read these texts they are going to not act on them. They say the Shahada, occassionally attend a mosque and that's it, like the majority of christians in Ireland pray for silly things, go to mass on holidays and still call themselves christian.
    There are plenty in even muslim countries that toe the line for appearance sake but don't take it seriously. Good for them. But you cannot use them as a litmus test for Islam anymore than you can use such christians as demonstrations of christianity's text.


  • #126
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    Fairly sure I never thought to call them uniquely evil, all catholic majority countries reacting on religious grounds to events and not on political grounds, mentioning catholic atrocities while conveniently forgetting others....I mean I would if I was a certain recently departed Reverend, but not as I'm me, no.

    So if we use exactly the same language in discussing and/or condemning any and all religions then we are on the right track , would than be correct ?

    For example if I were to say that the Magdalene Laundries and the oppression of women could not have happened in Ireland for over 40 years without at least the tacit acceptance of the state and the population ?

    Would that be a fair statement ?


  • Advertisement
  • #127
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    jank wrote: »
    Can you elaborate on why she is a chancer or do you just dismiss out of hand everyone's opinion that does not confirm to your world view. I would say she is well qualified to speak on the dangers of religions and Islam especially given the upbringing she had..
    Her (real name Magan) hysterical and invented upbringing?


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbxP8Uys8kc


  • #128
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    Having slightly different intelligence across the global human demographics is not racism or bigotry. If it is true, then it is simply a scientific observation. If its false then its something that can be disproven and also a valid point as it allows for it to be discredited. An 'ought' is not necessarily derived from an 'is'.
    Assuming that there are inferior races is textbook racism I am afraid and is one of the staples of white supremacists. It is simply Harris backing up a fellow racist.


  • #129
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Standman wrote: »
    You may be mistaken there. I have read his blog posts about the issue and I can't find any mention of racially profiling Arabs. Do you have a link to where he stated that?
    Im hesitant to link to a racist's and Islamophobe's site but here you go: In Defense of Profiling : Sam Harris


  • #130
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Assuming that there are inferior races is textbook racism I am afraid and is one of the staples of white supremacists. It is simply Harris backing up a fellow racist.

    This is not what Harris said , read the full article. But you already know this . There are only about 20 posters that contribute to these threads and we could have a really interesting discussion if we treat each other at face value and drop the right at all costs /not give an inch approach.


  • #131
    Snake Plisken
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,022 ✭✭✭✭Snake Plisken


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Im hesitant to link to a racist's and Islamophobe's site but here you go: In Defense of Profiling : Sam Harris

    Wow pot calling the kettle black with the anti-Jewish tone of some of your posts! Back on topic Sam and Bill were just giving their opinion on the topic, Ben didn't want to know and wouldn't listen to what Sam had to say!


  • Advertisement
  • #132
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    marienbad wrote: »
    This is not what Harris said , read the full article. But you already know this . There are only about 20 posters that contribute to these threads and we could have a really interesting discussion if we treat each other at face value and drop the right at all costs /not give an inch approach.
    I make no apologies for not giving a freepass to a bloodthirsty warmonger who oozes bigotry and exceptionalism from every Zionist pore.



    This is how I paraphrased:


    "-- In terms of "intelligence" --"


    Watson's claim via Harris:
    " that people of African descent appear to be innately less intelligent than white Europeans. "


    Me:
    "that "he (Sam Harris) would be surprised if there were no differences found between the races". "


    Harris:
    " it would, in fact, be very surprising if there were no differences (in intelligence) between racial or ethnic groups waiting to be discovered."


  • #133
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Mod:
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    It is simply Harris backing up a fellow racist.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Im hesitant to link to a racist's and Islamophobe's site [...]
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I make no apologies for not giving a freepass to a bloodthirsty warmonger who oozes bigotry and exceptionalism from every Zionist pore.
    Last chance BB.

    You were warned twice yesterday about your ongoing failure to discuss things calmly. If you continue to post in a a manner which the moderators judge to be inflammatory, you will be carded, then, for a subsequent instance, you will be banned.


  • #134
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    So asking you to read the book you are defending, and saying I have, is giving me assumed (..............)the line for appearance sake but don't take it seriously. Good for them. But you cannot use them as a litmus test for Islam anymore than you can use such christians as demonstrations of christianity's text.

    You might exclude internet fora while you're at it.


  • #135
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    So if we use exactly the same language in discussing and/or condemning any and all religions then we are on the right track , would than be correct ?

    For example if I were to say that the Magdalene Laundries and the oppression of women could not have happened in Ireland for over 40 years without at least the tacit acceptance of the state and the population ?

    Would that be a fair statement ?


    If you want to have a go at Islam, please stop the fiddling about and get on with it.


  • #136
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Assuming that there are inferior races is textbook racism I am afraid and is one of the staples of white supremacists. It is simply Harris backing up a fellow racist.

    I was hoping to avoid being sucked in, but it has to be said that Harris, though low in my estimation, is no racist.


  • #137
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    If you want to have a go at Islam, please stop the fiddling about and get on with it.

    Can you answer the question ?


  • #138
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    Can you answer the question ?

    I won't. The reason I won't is because when I answer yes, you will say 'Just like Islamic countries x,y,z occurs with the tacit approval...' when there is not necessarily a clear parallel between the two. If you're going to have a go, just go ahead and do it. I'll either agree or I won't.


  • #139
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    I won't. The reason I won't is because when I answer yes, you will say 'Just like Islamic countries x,y,z occurs with the tacit approval...' when there is not necessarily a clear parallel between the two. If you're going to have a go, just go ahead and do it. I'll either agree or I won't.

    I may or may not do that, but should it matter ? If there is not a clear parallel can you illustrate it ?


  • #140
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    I may or may not do that, but should it matter ? If there is not a clear parallel can you illustrate it ?

    I'm not getting dragged into this. If you think you can come up with a few legitimate issues with Islam (can't be that difficult) just fire them out there and forget about the Trick Question Championships.


  • #141
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm not getting dragged into this. If you think you can come up with a few legitimate issues with Islam (can't be that difficult) just fire them out there and forget about the Trick Question Championships.

    A come on Nodin , these are not trick questions , it is just trying to set equal parameters . You said it yourself just above re Sam Harris not being racist.

    And you have said it many many times on Israel/Palestinian issues , that it is too easy to play the anti-Semite racist card to stifle debate.

    Well there is an element of racist card at play in this discussion also.

    I believe we should be able to talk about all religions from the Dalai Lama to Pope Francis and their impact on our society without fear or favour. Same rules for all

    Do you dis-agree ?


  • Advertisement
  • #142
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    A come on Nodin , these are not trick questions , it is just trying to set equal parameters . You said it yourself just above re Sam Harris not being racist.

    And you have said it many many times on Israel/Palestinian issues , that it is too easy to play the anti-Semite racist card to stifle debate.

    Well there is an element of racist card at play in this discussion also.

    I believe we should be able to talk about all religions from the Dalai Lama to Pope Francis and their impact on our society without fear or favour. Same rules for all

    Do you dis-agree ?

    No. I just won't be drawn in the manner previously described.


  • #143
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    No. I just won't be drawn in the manner previously described.


    Make discussion kind of pointless then if you just want to critique others and never proffer you own view .


  • #144
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    Make discussion kind of pointless then if you just want to critique others and never proffer you own view .

    ?

    I'm perfectly willing to put out my own view. I'm just not willing to do so by agreeing and disagreeing with suggested metaphors comparsions and other such nonsense. This is getting odd.


  • #145
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    ?

    I'm perfectly willing to put out my own view. I'm just not willing to do so by agreeing and disagreeing with suggested metaphors comparsions and other such nonsense. This is getting odd.

    Ok then , do you think there is a problem with violent fundamentalism within the Islamic world ?


  • #146
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    Ok then , do you think there is a problem with violent fundamentalism within the Islamic world ?

    Yep. Fairly obviously.


  • #147
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yep. Fairly obviously.

    Well , we agree on that then !!


  • #148
    Standman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Im hesitant to link to a racist's and Islamophobe's site but here you go: In Defense of Profiling : Sam Harris

    There is not even a single mention of Arabs in the above link. Shouldn't need to be said, but Muslim =/= Arab. You might say "Ah, but we all know what he really means when he says we should profile Muslims", but again this would be another example of the cynical, illogical view that many people seem to have of Harris' opinions & motives.


  • #149
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yep. Fairly obviously.

    This Harris's basic point and justification for it being found within the sacred writings of Islam.

    Just as the war on LGBT rights by Christian fundamentalists in the US is justified by their holy writings and the behaviour of the Catholic church in Ireland in the 50's was bolstered by their interpretations

    But we can say it about Born Agains and Catholics etc but not against Islam and we get all warm and fuzzy about the Dalai Lama !


  • #150
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    This Harris's basic point and justification for it being found within the sacred writings of Islam.

    Just as the war on LGBT rights by Christian fundamentalists in the US is justified by their holy writings and the behaviour of the Catholic church in Ireland in the 50's was bolstered by their interpretations

    But we can say it about Born Agains and Catholics etc but not against Islam and we get all warm and fuzzy about the Dalai Lama !

    Unfortunately when you read through Harris proclamations on the matter, it gets rather more nasty, agenda laden and - quite frankly - bigoted than that. You might note some of the quotes I put up earlier in the thread.


  • Advertisement
  • #151
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    Unfortunately when you read through Harris proclamations on the matter, it gets rather more nasty, agenda laden and - quite frankly - bigoted than that. You might note some of the quotes I put up earlier in the thread.

    I don't think it is more nasty than that Nodin. While I don't agree with everything Harris says , but he is one of those writers whose articles must be taken in totality and individual quotations can easily give a different impression

    His most basic point is the there is a violent nature to fundamental Islam that is given justification by its core sacred writings .And correctly so.

    And unless and until moderate Islam and the Liberal West accepts this then we have a problem


Advertisement