Educate Together is undermining State's duty to provide non-denominational schools

Michael Nugent · 04-08-2014 1:42am #1

Educate Together has made two statements recently that undermine the duty of the Irish Government to provide secular education though new non-denominational schools, as required by the UN Human Rights Committee.

Educate Together is doing this by blurring the distinction between multi-denominational schools (which Educate Together schools are) and non-denominational schools (which the UN Human Rights Committee has told Ireland to provide access to).

Educate Together is creating the impression that, by providing more Educate Together schools, the UN’s requirements would be satisfied. This is not correct. There would still be no non-denominational schools.

Educate Together is also using the UN’s requirements to seek more funding for more Educate Together schools. But if this and only this happens, then there will be less money for non-denominational schools.

Clearly Educate Together schools are good for parents who want a multi-denominational education for their children. But they do not satisfy the requirement for non-denominational education that the UN has told Ireland to also provide.

Indeed, Educate Together cannot satisfy the requirements of the UN, because those requirements are aimed at the Irish State and not at Educate Together.

The distinction between denominational, multi-denominational and non-denominational schools is central to the idea of secular education.

Educate Together has up to now clearly and formally recognised this distinction, and has indeed denied requests to become non-denominational rather than multi-denominational.

But they are now blurring the distinction by claiming that they are non-denominational, and are thus undermining the case for funding of actual non-denominational schools.

Here is a more detailed analysis of this issue.

Educate Together is undermining the duty of the Irish State to provide non-denominational schools

It explains the difference between the two kinds of school, the background to Educate Together’s recent ambiguous statements, and why this must not be allowed to undermine the case for the Irish Government to fund secular education through new non-denominational schools.

It covers:
1. What is the difference between these types of school?
2. What the UN Human Rights Committee told Ireland
3. Educate Together’s recent press statement
4. Educate Together’s recent blog post
5. What the Educate Together model does not provide
6. What the Educate Together model can not provide
7. The State’s duty to provide secular education

Czarcasm · 04-08-2014 2:27am

Educate Together really aren't doing any different to Atheist Ireland in claiming that they are multi-denominational and non-denominational at the same time, in the very same way that Atheist Ireland are claiming that Roman Catholics are welcome to join their organisation as long as they agree to it's mission statement and it's aims -

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Czarcasm wrote:

Also, while I have your attention, may I inquire as to the possibility of joining your organization as a Roman Catholic who also supports moving towards a secular state?

Czarcasm, You can join Atheist Ireland if you agree with its mission statement and aims. You are not required to agree with or support each individual activity.

The Mission Statement is: Atheist Ireland aims to build a rational, ethical and secular society free from superstition and supernaturalism.

The Aims are:
1. To promote atheism and reason over superstition and supernaturalism. 
2. To promote an ethical and secular Ireland where the state does not support or fund or give special treatment to any religion.

Czarcasm wrote:

It's one I've wondered about for a while as to why you wouldn't name the organisation "Secular Ireland" as opposed to "Atheist Ireland".

The name was decided on after a lengthy process, involving three series of votes among members of the then atheist.ie online forum, followed by a formal vote at the founding meeting that endorsed the outcome of that process.

As an oversimplification of the aspects relevant to this discussion, we promote both atheism and secularism. By naming the organisation Atheist Ireland, we can promote both. If we had named it Secular Ireland, then we could not promote atheism.

Czarcasm wrote:

I'm just thinking there would be much more support for secularism among Irish people, but I would also understand that the idea of your organisation is first and foremost to promote Atheism in Ireland.

Well, I wouldn't say "first and foremost". We do both. In practice, a lot of our work is based around promoting secularism, and we're happy to work with any religious people or groups who also support secularism.

jank · 04-08-2014 2:59am

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Educate Together has made two statements recently that undermine the duty of the Irish Government to provide secular education though new non-denominational schools, as required by the UN Human Rights Committee.

Educate Together is doing this by blurring the distinction between multi-denominational schools (which Educate Together schools are) and non-denominational schools (which the UN Human Rights Committee has told Ireland to provide access to).

Educate Together is creating the impression that, by providing more Educate Together schools, the UN’s requirements would be satisfied. This is not correct. There would still be no non-denominational schools.

Educate Together is also using the UN’s requirements to seek more funding for more Educate Together schools. But if this and only this happens, then there will be less money for non-denominational schools.

Clearly Educate Together schools are good for parents who want a multi-denominational education for their children. But they do not satisfy the requirement for non-denominational education that the UN has told Ireland to also provide.

Indeed, Educate Together cannot satisfy the requirements of the UN, because those requirements are aimed at the Irish State and not at Educate Together.

The distinction between denominational, multi-denominational and non-denominational schools is central to the idea of secular education.

Educate Together has up to now clearly and formally recognised this distinction, and has indeed denied requests to become non-denominational rather than multi-denominational.

But they are now blurring the distinction by claiming that they are non-denominational, and are thus undermining the case for funding of actual non-denominational schools.

Here is a more detailed analysis of this issue.

Educate Together is undermining the duty of the Irish State to provide non-denominational schools

It explains the difference between the two kinds of school, the background to Educate Together’s recent ambiguous statements, and why this must not be allowed to undermine the case for the Irish Government to fund secular education through new non-denominational schools.

It covers:
1. What is the difference between these types of school?
2. What the UN Human Rights Committee told Ireland
3. Educate Together’s recent press statement
4. Educate Together’s recent blog post
5. What the Educate Together model does not provide
6. What the Educate Together model can not provide
7. The State’s duty to provide secular education

How many non-denominational schools would satisfy the requirement?
What are the legal repercussions for this? Is there a precedent?

Obliq · 04-08-2014 9:07am

Zamboni · 04-08-2014 12:47pm

This is one if the most disappointing things I have ever read on this forum.
Atheist Ireland pointlessly attacking another organisation who are providing wonderful education to many children of no religion.
If Athiest Ireland is such an expert authority on non-denominational education how about they become a patron?
That would probably be difficult though. It is far easier to criticise people who are actually trying to make a difference.

AI members should really consider their membership to an organisation which operates so negatively.

Zamboni · 04-08-2014 12:58pm

Haha ET refuses to change to non-denominational as requested by AI.
As if a thirty odd year old organisation with clearly a successful model is answerable to a handful of grumpy, self-righteous, ageing men who meet once a year in a Dublin hotel.
Some neck.

swampgas · 04-08-2014 1:53pm

I think it's more about the Irish state refusing to deal with the fact that citizens (even if they are in a minority) are entitled to have their children educated in state schools in a way that respects their right to be free of religion. The Irish state has refused to deal adequately with the massive hold the RCC has over primary schools, and while ET schools are great they are not non-denominational. It's pretty black and white from where I'm sitting.

Czarcasm · 04-08-2014 2:40pm

swampgas wrote: »

I think it's more about the Irish state refusing to deal with the fact that citizens (even if they are in a minority) are entitled to have their children educated in state schools in a way that respects their right to be free of religion. The Irish state has refused to deal adequately with the massive hold the RCC has over primary schools, and while ET schools are great they are not non-denominational. It's pretty black and white from where I'm sitting.

The Irish State can hardly afford what schools it has, let alone build new schools around the country to accommodate people who want specifically secular schools. I know ET aren't secular, you know ET aren't secular, Michael certainly knows ET aren't secular, but they have every right to call themselves non-denominational as multi-denominational, because they do not have a specific denomination. They are accomodating of all faiths and none.

I would fully support what Michael is looking for, but I am also mindful of the practical considerations, and the idea of completely secular schools, dotted around the country with maybe five pupils in each class, the idea is just so impractical that it simply doesn't merit any serious consideration, let alone Government funding.

robindch · 04-08-2014 2:46pm

Zamboni wrote: »

As if a thirty odd year old organisation with clearly a successful model is answerable to a handful of grumpy, self-righteous, ageing men who meet once a year in a Dublin hotel. Some neck.

None of that kind of comment please.

Michael Nugent · 04-08-2014 3:02pm

I understand that this is a difficult conversation for us to have, but it is a very important one, so I’ll try to spend some time teasing out all of the points that everyone has made. It may take some time, so bear with me.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Educate Together really aren't doing any different to Atheist Ireland in claiming that they are multi-denominational and non-denominational at the same time, in the very same way that Atheist Ireland are claiming that Roman Catholics are welcome to join their organisation as long as they agree to it's mission statement and it's aims -

Firstly, yes what Educate Together is claiming is different as it relates to a concern expressed by the UN Human Rights Committee which has implications for State policy in Ireland. The most relevant concern expressed by the Human Rights Committee is:

UN Human Rights Committee wrote:

"Finally, the final question that I have is issue number 26, which deals with the question of non-denominational schools. The number of non-denominational schools in Ireland is still minuscule*, and it is our understanding that most of the new schools that have been opened have been multi-denominational and not non-denominational."

So not only is the Human Rights Committee concerned that there are few non-denominational schools, but they are explicitly concerned that the State is opening multi-denominational schools instead of non-denominational schools.

* With regard to the phrase "The number of non-denominational schools in Ireland is still minuscule," a Committee member explained to us that the Committee had been told that there are a small number of non-denominational schools. This is not true. There are no non-denominational schools in Ireland. It is safe to assume that their questioning would have been even stronger if they had known that they had been misled on that issue.

Whether a Catholic chooses to join Atheist Ireland (which in principle they could, as a poll during the Eucharistic Congress showed that 8% of Irish Roman Catholics say they don't believe in God) has no implications for Irish State policy in reconciling its practices with its human rights obligations.

Secondly, even if it was the case that Atheist Ireland was doing something similar to Educate Together, that would not change whether or not what Educate Together was doing is right. However, because this is a difficult conversation, I'll indulge your attempts to distract the focus away from the problem this time, but I won't keep indulging it.

swampgas · 04-08-2014 3:04pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

The Irish State can hardly afford what schools it has, let alone build new schools around the country to accommodate people who want specifically secular schools. I know ET aren't secular, you know ET aren't secular, Michael certainly knows ET aren't secular, but they have every right to call themselves non-denominational as multi-denominational, because they do not have a specific denomination. They are accomodating of all faiths and none.

I would fully support what Michael is looking for, but I am also mindful of the practical considerations, and the idea of completely secular schools, dotted around the country with maybe five pupils in each class, the idea is just so impractical that it simply doesn't merit any serious consideration, let alone Government funding.

Fair point.

However funding should be irrelevant when it comes to rights issues. The principle of the situation still stands but is (IMO) an issue more for the government than for ET. While in pragmatic terms ET is way better than RCC or other single denomination in terms of access and suitability for non-religious parents, I wouldn't like to see the government let off the hook when they are upholding an unfair system.

Michael Nugent · 04-08-2014 3:18pm

jank wrote: »

How many non-denominational schools would satisfy the requirement?

There is no specific amount. The Human Rights Committee previously told Ireland to make non-denominational education widely available in all areas of the country. This is what they have said this time:

Human Rights Committee wrote:

“The Human Rights Committee is concerned about the slow progress in increasing access to secular education through the establishment of non-denominational schools, divestment of the patronage of schools and the phasing out of integrated religious curricula in schools accommodating minority faith or non-faith children.

So they are essentially saying that there is a combination of three ways ins which the Irish State can make non-denominational education widely available:

1 Establish new non-denominational schools
2 Divest patronage of existing schools
3 End the integrated religious curriculum in denominational schools

They went on to say:

Human Rights Committee wrote:

"Ireland should introduce legislation to prohibit discrimination in access to schools on the grounds of religion, belief or other status, and ensure that there are diverse school types and curriculum options available throughout the State party to meet the needs of minority faith or non-faith children.”

which I think is reasonably self-explanatory.

jank wrote: »

What are the legal repercussions for this? Is there a precedent?

The legal repercussions are difficult to predict.

Ireland has signed up to the relevant treaty (the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights) and has thus committed to uphold its terms. It is one of the most, if not the most, important of the human rights treaties that seek to implement the principles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Currently, in a range of areas, we are in breach of our obligations under that treaty.

The Committee are not going to come to Ireland and physically force the Government to build new schools, so the power of its recommendations in practice depends on us as Irish citizens putting pressure on the Government to adhere to its human rights obligations. But there are signs that the Committee is increasingly impatient with Ireland, as we have ignored so many things the Committee told us last time in 2008.

This time around the Committee were very strong with Ireland on the question of abortion law. When Ireland said that the reason we don't extend abortion rights to women to the level covered by the treaty was because of our referendum result, the Committee told Ireland that this was completely unacceptable because majority votes cannot be used to deny human rights. When under pressure on this, the Irish Government reversed that position in Geneva, and accepted that majority votes cannot be used to deny Convention rights.

So it is all part of a process, but we had some very significant breakthroughs in Geneva.

Obliq · 04-08-2014 3:24pm

Michael Nugent wrote: »

So not only is the Human Rights Committee concerned that there are few non-denominational schools, but they are explicitly concerned that the State is opening multi-denominational schools instead of non-denominational schools.

Surely, the massive elephant in the room all the time is the one that the State constantly tries to pretend it can't see, ie. That there are nearly enough schools, but they're all (near as) owned by the RCC?

I understand the need to clarify what is meant by non-denominational and multi-denominational so as to show up the State with all their guff and nonsense (and take your point about Educate Together somewhat jumping on the bandwagon here in an effort to promote their model as the option the State should be promoting), but why can't the HRC actually come right out and say how extraordinary it is to have faith schools nationwide that are fully state funded, and that a percentage of them could be made non-denominational in each county (under some kind of compulsory purchase deal, or whatever)?

Edit: Oh right. They did.

Michael Nugent · 04-08-2014 3:41pm

Zamboni wrote: »

This is one if the most disappointing things I have ever read on this forum.
Atheist Ireland pointlessly attacking another organisation who are providing wonderful education to many children of no religion.

That's an understandable mistake to make, but it is not accurate.

You have put together the phrase "Atheist Ireland pointlessly attacking another organisation" and the phrase "who are providing wonderful education to many children of no religion".

By doing that, you create the impression that we are attacking them *because* they are providing wonderful education. That is not the case.

We welcome that they are providing multi-denominational education for parents who want multi-denominational education for their children.

We also respect their right to not provide non-denominational education, as that is not their responsibility. It is the responsibility of the Irish State.

What we are criticising Educate Together for is that they are undermining the duty of the State to provide non-denominational education, by blurring the distinction between the two types of education, and by creating the impression that providing more Educate Together schools would satisfy the requirement to provide non-denominational schools.

Zamboni wrote: »

If Athiest Ireland is such an expert authority on non-denominational education how about they become a patron?

Because the patronage system is itself the problem.

The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education recently concluded:

Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education wrote:

"Multiple patronage and ethos as a basis for policy can lead to segregation and inequality in the education system. The objectives of admission policy should be equality and integration."

There is no other vital public service that the State franchises out to private bodies in the way it does with education.

It would be like you complaining about the way that the police operate, and me suggesting that you set up your own police station.

School patrons are not organs of the State. They are therefore exempted from the requirements of the European Convention on Human Rights Act, and pupils or their parents do not have access to the protection of that Convention if they have complaints against Educate Together schools.

Also, despite the Louise O’Keeffe case, the Irish Government has yet to put in place an effective remedy for parents whose children are denied human rights in any Irish schools, whether denominational or Educate Together.

Both of these problem would also exist even if the Irish State funded non-denominational schools under the current patronage system.

Zamboni wrote: »

That would probably be difficult though. It is far easier to criticise people who are actually trying to make a difference.

Atheist Ireland is trying to make a difference. And we are making a difference.

We are just trying to make a different difference than the difference you would prefer us to try to make.

Zamboni wrote: »

AI members should really consider their membership to an organisation which operates so negatively.

Seeking to vindicate human rights is not operating negatively.

Czarcasm · 04-08-2014 3:49pm

swampgas wrote: »

Fair point.

However funding should be irrelevant when it comes to rights issues. The principle of the situation still stands but is (IMO) an issue more for the government than for ET. While in pragmatic terms ET is way better than RCC or other single denomination in terms of access and suitability for non-religious parents, I wouldn't like to see the government let off the hook when they are upholding an unfair system.

Funding becomes very much a relevant factor when you don't have the funds. I too wouldn't like to see the government let off the hook when they are upholding an unfair system, but in funding ET schools, they are funding them in the same way they are funding RC schools and any other schools.

As I understand the issue as laid out by Michael (it's hard to argue with a poster who can switch at will between speaking in a personal capacity and speaking as a representative of Atheist Ireland, and then call out other organizations for blurring lines), Atheist Ireland want Government funding for secular schools, and as far as I can see there's no barrier to them applying for funding in the same way ET schools and all other schools in Ireland receive funding.

If I may use a comparison, some parents with intellectually and physically disabled children campaigned for Government funding for specialist schools for their children. The Government simply doesn't have the funds. So some parents chose to fund a specialist school themselves, and as far as I'm aware, it's the only one in the country. For the majority of parents of children with special needs, they will enter their children in mainstream schools, and research has shown that both special needs children benefit, and children who do not have special needs benefit from tolerance and understanding and respect towards each other, better preparing them for the real world.

ET schools are far more beneficial for children, whereas a single ethos school fosters exclusion rather than appreciates diversity. That's why even RC schools now are claiming that even though their ethos is RC, they are multi-denominational in the respect that their students come from a variety of faiths and none. They're technically not wrong in their assertion that they are multi-denominational and inclusive, in just the same way as ET are multi-denominational and inclusive.

The system that Michael seems to want would not just be secular, but it would be exclusive, and while I'm all for secular schools, I could not support schools exclusively for children of no faith, simply on that basis. Otherwise you're getting into a situation where every parent wants an exclusive Government funded school for their child for whatever individual reason, or else their rights are being infringed.

Michael Nugent · 04-08-2014 4:07pm

Zamboni wrote: »

Haha ET refuses to change to non-denominational as requested by AI.

A bit of context here that you may be unaware of. When Educate Together started up first, they wanted to provide non-denominational schools.

They were told by the Department of Education that they would not be allowed to provide non-denominational schools, and that they would only be allowed to provide multi-denominational schools.

And so what might have been the start of non-denominational education was denied to a group that anted to provide it.

Now, three decades later, society has moved on, and the denial of the right to non-denominational education is no longer feasible.

That was the context in which we asked Educate Together to consider becoming non-denominational (which was their original desire), but they said that they could not do so without a vote at their AGM.

robindch · 04-08-2014 4:16pm

Michael Nugent wrote: »

That was the context in which we asked Educate Together to consider becoming non-denominational (which was their original desire), but they said that they could not do so without a vote at their AGM.

But ET haven't said that they won't hold a vote or wouldn't respect the outcome if there is one?

While in practice most things probably wouldn't change, at least in principle the changing from multi-denominational to non-denominational is a fundamental alteration of the ET philosophy, so putting it to the vote seems fair and proper.

I don't quite see what the problem is.

expectationlost · 04-08-2014 4:17pm

Zamboni wrote: »

This is one if the most disappointing things I have ever read on this forum.
Atheist Ireland pointlessly attacking another organisation who are providing wonderful education to many children of no religion.
If Athiest Ireland is such an expert authority on non-denominational education how about they become a patron?
That would probably be difficult though. It is far easier to criticise people who are actually trying to make a difference.

AI members should really consider their membership to an organisation which operates so negatively.

here is the missing link from Atheist Irelands well reasoned post why don't you tackle the the point they are making and see if you can find a flaw in their arguement.

Educate Together’s recent press statement http://www.educatetogether.ie/media/national-news/un-calls-for-diversity

expectationlost · 04-08-2014 4:21pm

robindch wrote: »

But ET haven't said that they won't hold a vote or wouldn't respect the outcome if there is one?

While in practice most things probably wouldn't change, at least in principle the changing from multi-denominational to non-denominational is a fundamental alteration of the ET philosophy, so putting it to the vote seems fair and proper.

I don't quite see what the problem is.

Educate Together is undermining the duty of the Irish State to provide non-denominational schools http://www.atheist.ie/2014/08/educate-together-is-undermining-the-duty-of-the-irish-state-to-provide-non-denominational-schools/

Educate Together has made two statements recently that undermine the duty of the Irish Government to provide secular education though new non-denominational schools, as required by the UN Human Rights Committee.

is what AI says is the problem, its right there in their post.

expectationlost · 04-08-2014 4:25pm

Zamboni wrote: »

This is one if the most disappointing things I have ever read on this forum.
Atheist Ireland pointlessly attacking another organisation who are providing wonderful education to many children of no religion.
If Athiest Ireland is such an expert authority on non-denominational education how about they become a patron?
That would probably be difficult though. It is far easier to criticise people who are actually trying to make a difference.

AI members should really consider their membership to an organisation which operates so negatively.

afaik they don't want to become a patron and I don't think becoming a patron under the current patronage system would be right, its about the states duty to provide education not what another private provider would do, we'll have to see what happens post the louis o'keefe judgement but the gov are moving very slow on that (she said so yesterday http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0803/634990-louise-okeeffe/)

Michael Nugent · 04-08-2014 4:25pm

robindch wrote: »

But ET haven't said that they won't hold a vote or wouldn't respect the outcome if there is one?

While in practice most things probably wouldn't change, at least in principle the changing from multi-denominational to non-denominational is a fundamental alteration of the ET philosophy, so putting it to the vote seems fair and proper.

I don't quite see what the problem is.

There is no problem with the principle that they would have to have a vote to change to non-denominational.

However, if they only vote to change their self-description, but "in practice most things probably wouldn't change," then they would just be adding to the problem.

The type of education is the issue, not the label put on it.

Based on Educate Together's own description of the difference between their ethos and a non-denominational ethos, as reflected in the Educate Together submission to the Forum on patronage, here are some key things that would have to change:

A non-denominational or secular school would restrict or prohibit religious symbols, and it would certainly prohibit religious practice.
A non-denominational or secular school would provide an ethics programme, but it would not combine moral and spiritual development as part of an ethics programme. A secular school would recognise that morality is independent of spirituality.
A non-denominational or secular school would not regularly celebrate different religious festivals, in order to develop understanding and respect for different traditions. Instead, it would approach such an aim by teaching about different traditions in an objective, critical and pluralistic manner.
A non-denominational or secular school might not make school facilities available to families wishing to organise faith formation classes, such as those which prepare children for the Catholic sacraments. If it did permit this, it would not describe such faith formation, as Educate Together does, by saying “These classes operate on an ‘opt-in’ basis outside the compulsory school day.” It would simply view them as external bodies, such a chess club, hiring the school facilities independently of the school curriculum and nothing to do with the school day.
A non-denominational or secular school would not integrate an ethos that includes the above elements throughout the school day, in the way that Educate Together schools do with their integrated curriculum. Just because the Educate Together ethos is more palatable than the ethos of Catholic schools, we should not forget that they are still integrating an ethos that celebrates religious festivals, and that combines morality with spirituality.

So, if Educate Together was voting to change its ethos to a non-denominational one, then it would have to make the above changes as opposed to just changing their self-description while keeping the same ethos.

Of course, another problem would then arise, which is that many parents send their children to Educate Together schools precisely because they want a multi-denominational education for their children. So how would Educate Together deal with that?

Ultimately, the problem is the patronage system itself. The State should provide a neutral non-denominational education system that accommodates everybody equally by not taking any position on religious beliefs or atheism.

Franchising a vital public service to private bodies is itself the problem. Changing what those private bodies do does not address the problem, it only rearranges it.

Cantremember · 04-08-2014 4:26pm

The point is clear enough: ET is promoting multi denominational schools where religion is taught and state resources are used to that end. If resources are scarce then cut the funding of religion.

expectationlost · 04-08-2014 4:27pm

AI publish very detailed very, very well reasoned arguements that the emperor has no clothes and ICCL and Humanist Ireland and ET and their supporters want everyone to say nothing and cheer.

Cantremember · 04-08-2014 4:30pm

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Ultimately, the problem is the patronage system itself. The State should provide a neutral non-denominational education system that accommodates everybody equally by not taking any position on religious beliefs or atheism.

Franchising a vital public service to private bodies is itself the problem. Changing what those private bodies do does not address the problem, it only rearranges it.

And that is what is being denied; ET is another step along the road away from denominational education. Its not a neutral system.

Michael Nugent · 04-08-2014 4:31pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

Funding becomes very much a relevant factor when you don't have the funds. I too wouldn't like to see the government let off the hook when they are upholding an unfair system, but in funding ET schools, they are funding them in the same way they are funding RC schools and any other schools.

Yes, they are funding them all in the same unfair way. And they are all discriminating against parents who want to vindicate their human right to a religiously neutral education for their children.

Just because the Educate Together ethos is more palatable than the ethos of Catholic schools, we should not forget that they are still integrating an ethos that celebrates religious festivals, and that combines morality with spirituality.

The only type of school that can accommodate equally the rights and beliefs of all families is a non-denominational or secular school. Either a religious school or an atheist school excludes some or many families.

Michael Nugent · 04-08-2014 4:45pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

ET schools are far more beneficial for children, whereas a single ethos school fosters exclusion rather than appreciates diversity.

Yes, I agree, and if you follow that logic one step further, a non-denominational school is the most beneficial, because it does not foster exclusion and it does appreciate diversity.

Czarcasm wrote: »

That's why even RC schools now are claiming that even though their ethos is RC, they are multi-denominational in the respect that their students come from a variety of faiths and none. They're technically not wrong in their assertion that they are multi-denominational and inclusive, in just the same way as ET are multi-denominational and inclusive.

But Educate Together school are *not* "multi-denominational and inclusive" for parents who want a religiously neutral education for their children. They integrate an ethos throughout the school day that celebrates religious festivals, and that combines morality with spirituality.

Czarcasm wrote: »

The system that Michael seems to want would not just be secular, but it would be exclusive, and while I'm all for secular schools, I could not support schools exclusively for children of no faith, simply on that basis. Otherwise you're getting into a situation where every parent wants an exclusive Government funded school for their child for whatever individual reason, or else their rights are being infringed.

No, I want a secular system that is inclusive, not exclusive. A secular system is the only system that can be inclusive, because it can remain neutral on issues of religion and atheism.

You have actually articulated the point that I am making (that the only practical way to respect everybody's rights is to have one inclusive system) but you seem to mistakenly believe that a non-denominational or secular system is exclusive when it is the opposite.

'

Michael Nugent · 04-08-2014 4:54pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

Funding becomes very much a relevant factor when you don't have the funds.

I'll oversimplify my response to this because otherwise I will end up writing an essay.

Ireland has the funding to run an education system that accommodates everybody's rights.

It is instead using that funding to run an education system that discriminates against families who want a secular education for their children.

There is a combination of several ways that the Government can use its existing funding to run an education system that accommodates everybody's rights.

Ideally, it should end the patronage system and run schools directly. This is what Atheist Ireland wants to see happen.

Alternatively, or as a transition, it could continue with the patronage system, but not allow the patrons to set the ethos of the schools.

If it is not prepared to do either of those, it could do the combination of three things that the UN Human Rights Committee has said it should do to make non-denominational education widely available:

1 Establish new non-denominational schools
2 Divest patronage of existing schools
3 End the integrated religious curriculum in denominational schools

All of this could be done, with political will, more or less within existing funding resources.

SpaceTime · 04-08-2014 5:01pm

Fundamentally the state and a large % of the population do not even comprehend what secularism is and confuse it with atheism.

Can we not just have schools that offer education without any religious agenda. Just leave it up to the parents.

There are times when you'd have to wonder about Ireland. It's completely nuts when it comes to religion kind of like a Catholic version of the US bible belt in some ways only without federal government protections for human rights which tends to keep the US Deep South a bit more sensible in terms of public service provision anyway.

SpaceTime · 04-08-2014 5:14pm

On the funding issue and I've said this several times before on other threads:

If you'd a proper public school system and also did a way with gender segregation in schools, you'd massively reduce overheads and free up resources to recruit more teachers, build and run rural schools, employ SNAs, have sports, science and arts facilities like most continental schools, improve subject choices, improve library and IT facilities, provide enhanced psychology support and careers services etc etc

Instead, we duplicate and triplicate and quadruplicate facilities with all the associated overheads : buildings, management, principal etc and spread resources as thinly as possible.

It's a ridiculous non-system run in the interests of power hungry religious institutions not in the interests of providing the best quality education we can afford.

The way I see it you could have a really excellent community-based school system with good resources or you can have a fragmented sectarian, sexist mess that creates a ton of struggling schools and drains the exchequer.

I'd say though I'm going to be long gone before it reforms.

Basically, from what I can see it'll be held up forever due to a combination of religiosity, latent sectarianism that we don't like to admit to and snobbery.

I'm actually fed up even trying to argue it anymore. There are days I just feel like moving away and never coming back. People here basically don't understand why you shouldn't be de facto compelled to send your kids to a religious school.

There's no political will to end it, not even from Labour and its one of the reasons I'm no longer sure who to vote for anymore.

Brown Bomber · 04-08-2014 6:05pm

It appears you may have a problem. Your school would be in direct breach of the UN treaty you are using to justify it in the first place.

A non-denominational or secular school would restrict or prohibit religious symbols, and it would certainly prohibit religious practice.

Article 18
1. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching.
2. No one shall be subject to coercion which would impair his freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice.
3. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.
4. The States Parties to the present Covenant undertake to have respect for the liberty of parents and, when applicable, legal guardians to ensure the religious and moral education of their children in conformity with their own convictions.

Michael Nugent · 04-08-2014 6:15pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It appears you may have a problem. Your school would be in direct breach of the UN treaty you are using to justify it in the first place.

Article 18
1. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching.
2. No one shall be subject to coercion which would impair his freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice.
3. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.
4. The States Parties to the present Covenant undertake to have respect for the liberty of parents and, when applicable, legal guardians to ensure the religious and moral education of their children in conformity with their own convictions.

BB, the right to do something does not mean the right to do it wherever you want to. And in conformity with convictions does not mean State funding of the promotion of those convictions.

Do you not think the UN Human Rights Committee would notice such a contradiction if it was there?

Article 18 (the Article you quote above) is actually the main Article under which they are telling the Irish State to establish non-denominational schools and end the religious integrated curriculum in denominational schools that accommodate children of minority faiths or no faith.

.

Educate Together is undermining State's duty to provide non-denominational schools

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