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Tenant has asked permission to sublet...

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  • 10-07-2014 3:23pm
    #1
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭


    I'd prefer only responses from LL on this one please (but respect that its an open forum).

    Weird one for you. My tenant - who I get on very well with - has requested permission to sub-let a spare room on a short term basis (apparently there's some site that arranges this).

    My head is screaming "NO", which I'm more or less going to say, but wondering if any of you have heard about this (site/service)?

    Thoughts?


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    #2
    bidiots
    Registered Users Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭bidiots


    Zulu wrote: »
    I'd prefer only responses from LL on this one please (but respect that its an open forum).

    Weird one for you. My tenant - who I get on very well with - has requested permission to sub-let a spare room on a short term basis (apparently there's some site that arranges this).

    My head is screaming "NO", which I'm more or less going to say, but wondering if any of you have heard about this (site/service)?

    Thoughts?

    Not a LL, but site is probably airbnb


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    #3
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    bidiots wrote: »
    Not a LL, but site is probably airbnb

    If it is then say no. Am just out of the ll game a few months but short term tenants like that would be a nightmare imo. You have no control over who's staying in your house or how it's being advertised.


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    #4
    power101
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭power101


    1) With AirBnB the tenant will still be in the house. They are just letting one of the rooms to people.

    2) The LL has already said they are a good tenant so surely doing this would keep the tenant happy so they are more likley to stay long term.

    3) It may also allow for negotiation on the rent since the tenant will be making an income now from your house.

    Can't really see any big downside to this.


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    #5
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Not a LL so apologies in advance. The site sounds like Airbnb alright. I think you're right to say no. It'd be different if it was you doing the vetting in your own home and whatnot but it just seems like a potential nightmare waiting to happen for you if its the tenant doing the vetting.

    The other thing that could cause potential concern is that the tenant might be in a bit of bother financially if they're considering offering up the spare room like this so it might be worthwhile checking in to make sure you don't end up with a vacant property (or you can at least plan for such a potential scenario).


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    #6
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    power101 wrote: »
    1) With AirBnB the tenant will still be in the house. They are just letting one of the rooms to people.

    2) The LL has already said they are a good tenant so surely doing this would keep the tenant happy so they are more likley to stay long term.

    3) It may also allow for negotiation on the rent since the tenant will be making an income now from your house.

    Can't really see any big downside to this.
    Really? Downsides would be (just off the top of my head):
    1. No control over who enters the property.
    2. Question of rights of the sub-lease tenant (SLT).
    3. What recourse if damages are extensive and SLT flees.
    4. What liability I have to SLT.
    5. What liability I have to existing tenant if SLT does something.
    6. What impact it has on my insurance.

    etc...


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    #7
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Not a landlord, but I would also say no.

    From a public liability POV alone it's a minefield.


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    #8
    Greenmachine
    Registered Users Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭Greenmachine


    As a tenant, I would say don't agree to this. I am pretty vocal when a landlord does something I don't like, but I agree that they need to protect themselves too.


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    #9
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,333 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Are you happy that the planning permission for the property allows this? Whatever about having people stay for the summer or the occasional weekend, having a constant stream of people is another matter.


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    #10
    power101
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭power101


    Zulu wrote: »
    Really? Downsides would be (just off the top of my head):
    1. No control over who enters the property.
    2. Question of rights of the sub-lease tenant (SLT).
    3. What recourse if damages are extensive and SLT flees.
    4. What liability I have to SLT.
    5. What liability I have to existing tenant if SLT does something.
    6. What impact it has on my insurance.

    etc...

    1) You don't control this anyway
    2) They have no rights. Please look up Airbnb
    3) I really don't think you understand or have researched Airbnb
    4) You have no liability
    5) You have no liability
    6) There are 10's of thousands of people now using this service in Ireland. I'm sure a very quick phone call to your insurance broker/company could answer this for you.


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    #11
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Surely you can appreciate me not seeking my legal obligations &/or rights from a website that is touting a similar service?

    ...or indeed from you an anon in the internet. What are your legal credentials to determine that I have "no liability"?


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    #12
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    Zulu wrote: »
    I'd prefer only responses from LL on this one please (but respect that its an open forum).

    Weird one for you. My tenant - who I get on very well with - has requested permission to sub-let a spare room on a short term basis (apparently there's some site that arranges this).

    My head is screaming "NO", which I'm more or less going to say, but wondering if any of you have heard about this (site/service)?

    Thoughts?
    This would NOT be a sub let - it is a simple renting a room under the rent-a-room scheme.
    The occupant would be a licensee/lodger of the OP's tenant, if the OP gives permission. Thus, the tenant would be entirely responsible for his licensee, both to the agreement with the licensee and the OP.

    If the licensee behaved in, for example, an anti-social manner, the tenant would be liable for any consequences including being evicted because of his licensee's behaviour. This is exactly the same as the tenant inviting a friend to stay; he is responsible for his guest's behaviour.

    However, if the licensee resided in the property for more than 6 months, he has the right to ask to become a tenant of the OP.


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    #13
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,804 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Do you vet the visitors who your tenant has to stay for the weekend now? How is this different?

    Surely it's better for the tenant to be having paying guests via AirBnB than non paying randoms via couchsurfing (which they wouldn't need your permission for, BTW).

    How hard is it to let a property in your location? What would happen if the tenant moved out, ie how hard would it be to re-let?


    If the tenant wasn't going to be there, then I'd have a problem. But if they are, and they are taking on the job of assessing requests, and sleeping in the same house with the visitor, then they're taking a lot more risk than you.


    (I'm a LL, btw, and a tenant. I would happily let me tenants take an extra flatmate if they had a spare bedroom to give them. And I wouldn't be vetting the person.)


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    #14
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    power101 wrote: »
    1) You don't control this anyway
    2) They have no rights. Please look up Airbnb They can do a lot of damage before being removed!
    3) I really don't think you understand or have researched Airbnb
    4) You have no liability The landlord is liable for dealing with any issues and any anti social behaviour from their tenants and could end up compensating local residents for the actions of visitors to their property!
    5) You have no liability At the end of the day the LL is the only one liable.
    6) There are 10's of thousands of people now using this service in Ireland. I'm sure a very quick phone call to your insurance broker/company could answer this for you.
    As a tenant I would tell any landlord to stop this nonsense in its tracks and to inform the tenant that you are not very happy about this even being suggested. I would follow up with a request to inspect the property in the following few days at the tenants earliest convenience.


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    #15
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    If there is going to be one full time and many short term tenants, and you want to stay on good terms with your current tenant, if he wants to sublet, tell him it's ok but you would be more comfortable with the arrangement if he were to pay a second deposit to cover any potential damage by the short lets. He won't want to and there will be no hard feelings.

    Don't forget to amend the lease making current tenant liable for any damage done by short lets, and increase the rent as he could be making a tidy sum off the lets.


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    #16
    Gandhi
    Registered Users Posts: 976 ✭✭✭Gandhi


    I'm also a landlord and no way would I allow this. A tenant having friends or family stay over the odd night is fine. Turning the place into an amateur hotel and having a continuous stream of random characters from the internet massively increases the chances of a complete maniac showing up.

    The tenant may have liability in theory, but unless he also has enough money in his back pocket to buy you a new house if some nutcase destroys the place, that liability is meaningless.

    If your property is in a managed complex, there might be rules about this that would nip it in the bud anyway.


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    #17
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Do you vet the visitors who your tenant has to stay for the weekend now? How is this different?

    Both couchsurfing and having a friend stay over generally means people operate via social norms.

    When money comes into the equation market norms apply and it's a whole different kettle of fish.

    For example imagine you have cooked dinner for a friend and you are having a nice evening. Towards the end of the evening your friend is leaving, they reach into their wallet and leave a 50 euro note on the table as they go. How would you feel?

    The fact is money changes the dynamic of a transaction entirely. People have far less issue suing a service provider to which they paid money to than a friend or even a stranger that was doing them a favour.

    Basically there is zero upside to this for the landlord and plenty of downside.


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    #18
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,280 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    odds_on wrote: »
    This would NOT be a sub let - it is a simple renting a room under the rent-a-room scheme.
    The occupant would be a licensee/lodger of the OP's tenant, if the OP gives permission. Thus, the tenant would be entirely responsible for his licensee, both to the agreement with the licensee and the OP.

    If the licensee behaved in, for example, an anti-social manner, the tenant would be liable for any consequences including being evicted because of his licensee's behaviour. This is exactly the same as the tenant inviting a friend to stay; he is responsible for his guest's behaviour.

    However, if the licensee resided in the property for more than 6 months, he has the right to ask to become a tenant of the OP.

    Not true.
    It is not akin to the rent-a-room scheme- to avail of the rent-a-room scheme- the property has to be owner-occupied. If a tenant sublets- any income is taxable income, and they are obliged to declare it, and pay tax on it.

    Whether or not they are aware of, and compliant with, their tax obligations- I do not know.

    It is not the case that a tenant can sublet a room and pocket whatever they make- its taxable income, all of it.


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    #19
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Not true.
    It is not akin to the rent-a-room scheme- to avail of the rent-a-room scheme- the property has to be owner-occupied. If a tenant sublets- any income is taxable income, and they are obliged to declare it, and pay tax on it.

    Whether or not they are aware of, and compliant with, their tax obligations- I do not know.

    It is not the case that a tenant can sublet a room and pocket whatever they make- its taxable income, all of it.

    Tax obligation or not, I'd be surprised if any tenant ever has declared income from subletting the spare room!


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    #20
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,424 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    I might consider this but would charge extra for additional wear and tear.


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    #21
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Not true.
    It is not akin to the rent-a-room scheme- to avail of the rent-a-room scheme- the property has to be owner-occupied. If a tenant sublets- any income is taxable income, and they are obliged to declare it, and pay tax on it.

    Whether or not they are aware of, and compliant with, their tax obligations- I do not know.

    It is not the case that a tenant can sublet a room and pocket whatever they make- its taxable income, all of it.
    Not true.
    Any tenant may rent a room in a property in which they are living (with the landlord's permission); the person renting does not have to be the owner. The tenant is the current home owner.

    If a person sublets - only a tenant can sublet. A tenant subletting must vacate the property and that tenant then becomes a landlord (usually called 'the head tenant') with all a landlord's obligations and responsibilities.


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    #22
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    odds_on wrote: »
    Not true.
    Any tenant may rent a room in a property in which they are living (with the landlord's permission); the person renting does not have to be the owner. The tenant is the current home owner.

    If a person sublets - only a tenant can sublet. A tenant subletting must vacate the property and that tenant then becomes a landlord (usually called 'the head tenant') with all a landlord's obligations and responsibilities.

    But in this instance the existing tenant isn't vacating the property?


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    #23
    Snake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Snake


    davo10 wrote: »
    If there is going to be one full time and many short term tenants, and you want to stay on good terms with your current tenant, if he wants to sublet, tell him it's ok but you would be more comfortable with the arrangement if he were to pay a second deposit to cover any potential damage by the short lets. He won't want to and there will be no hard feelings.

    Don't forget to amend the lease making current tenant liable for any damage done by short lets, and increase the rent as he could be making a tidy sum off the lets.

    You can't just raise the rent because he feels like it. Once a tenant is in the house you can't raise above current market rates, or raise it during the lease


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    #24
    JillyQ
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭JillyQ


    You have no control over this so I would say no.


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    #25
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    well i could - they are seeking to change the existing lease so if I was to agree, i could make it a condition - not that I will, I've no interest.


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    #26
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    But in this instance the existing tenant isn't vacating the property?
    Therefore the occopant of the rented room is a licensee or lodger and the tenant is responsible for the lodger's actions.


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    #27
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    odds_on wrote: »
    Therefore the occopant of the rented room is a licensee or lodger and the tenant is responsible for the lodger's actions.

    Ah I've caught up with your point now...Thanks


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    #28
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,424 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    GrayFox208 wrote: »
    You can't just raise the rent because he feels like it. Once a tenant is in the house you can't raise above current market rates, or raise it during the lease

    You can if both parties agree. A change in use that allows sub letting would be considered a contract change


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    #29
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,333 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    davo10 wrote: »
    and increase the rent as he could be making a tidy sum off the lets.
    Be careful with this. Increasing the rent may imply that you are accepting the increased wear and tear.


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    #30
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Im a LL and I would defo say no,

    you might know the tenant well but you dont know who there letting the room.

    could just lead to a big headache!


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    #31
    Snake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Snake


    Victor wrote: »
    Be careful with this. Increasing the rent may imply that you are accepting the increased wear and tear.

    He could also need the extra money for some other reasons, it may not be for profit.. The fact he came and asked means he's not likely to have a strop if you don't agree if he was going to cause a fuss he probably wouldn't have asked


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