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Given 15 classes (10 hours) to teach in a subject not recognised to teach. Normal?
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02-07-2014 10:48am#1I am probably one of the few on here who has their timetable for next year.
So I have a question for school managers (and others) on here.
The subject I'm recognised to teach at LC level is Chemistry.
For the first time I've been given an extraordinary number of hours in a subject I'm not recognised by the Teaching Council to teach - Mathematics - at 15 classes or 10 hours per week. Is this normal?
This has occurred as the Principal has given Chemistry classes to a colleague of mine who went on a letter writing and personal phone call campaign to ensure that she was given Chemistry.
Now I'm more than competent to teach Mathematics (although this isn't the point) but the Principal has acceded to the wishes of the other teacher - as she's basically weak.
My question is this - Is it normal for such a large number of hours to be devoted to a subject on a teachers timetable that the Teaching Council does not recognise?
All contributions welcome.0
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I think you have a classic example here of the principal managing the resources available to them. By your own account you believe yourself to be more able to teach maths than your colleague. So the principal is deploying resources according to how they feel it will help the school best.
What I would do though is make it clear that you are not happy (if you aren't) and maybe try to draw a line in the sand so that you don't find yourself teaching 15 hours of maths next year. I was asked to teach a Science class (I'm maths and ICT) and I agreed as there should always be some give and take. But I always remind them that I was appointed as a Maths/ICT teacher and that's what I expect to mostly be teaching.
And to be honest I'd rather a class of Science than CSPE/SPHE anyway. But make it seem like you're doing them a favour and they owe you.
I remember the principal one year asked a business teacher if they would teach maths. They said no. That was the end of it.0 -
Is the other teacher qualified in Chemistry? Have all the chemistry classes been removed from your timetable? Is the other teacher qualified in maths?
What was the general make up of your timetable last year? I'm assuming 5th/6th Chemistry and JC Science mainly.
Is the other teacher doing this because they want an 'easier' timetable. Not that chemistry is easier, but the calibre of student you tend to get in chemistry classes tend to be the well behaved hard working type in comparison to what is say in say ordinary level maths.0 -
I think you have a classic example here of the principal managing the resources available to them. By your own account you believe yourself to be more able to teach maths than your colleague. So the principal is deploying resources according to how they feel it will help the school best.
What I would do though is make it clear that you are not happy (if you aren't) and maybe try to draw a line in the sand so that you don't find yourself teaching 15 hours of maths next year. I was asked to teach a Science class (I'm maths and ICT) and I agreed as there should always be some give and take. But I always remind them that I was appointed as a Maths/ICT teacher and that's what I expect to mostly be teaching.
And to be honest I'd rather a class of Science than CSPE/SPHE anyway. But make it seem like you're doing them a favour and they owe you.
I remember the principal one year asked a business teacher if they would teach maths. They said no. That was the end of it.
I don't agree, not if the other teacher went on a begging campaign to get the chemistry class. That isn't the principal timetabling for the needs of the school, that's timetabling to the demands of one teacher.0 -
Thanks for the responses. . .
Just more information. I have been teaching Chemistry to both years (5th & 6th)f for the past 12 years. From 2007 onwards the numbers doing Chemistry dramatically increased to approximately 35-45 students per year on the back of very successful results and interest generated in the subject through a TY Chemistry programme I ran.
This increase in numbers justified a second class. . Which I've been reliably informed by an inspector who visited me that 2 Chemistry classes in a year is extremely rare.
One younger recently graduated female teacher then began teaching Chemistry. I gave her all of my notes, resources, worksheets and any advice I could give to help her. I'm not being boastful here when I state that my notes are of an exceptional quality as I have excellent IT skills for teaching. In fact the Principal came to me in 2012 and asked for me to give my notes to her son doing the LC
Then my colleague went on maternity leave last year and her chemistry hours were given to another female teacher. . . This made her angry and upset. So last year she phoned the principal to let her know. When she returned in March from ML she wrote a letter about her successes etc. . (Using my resources it has to be said) and in May she went to the Principal to ask for a personal meeting to ensure she was getting Chemistry.
What happened next is that the Numbers doing Chemistry have fallen to only justify one class and on account of cutbacks.
To cut a long story short. . . The principal then installed this teacher in fifth year whilst I and the other teacher are moved to other subjects.0 -
The problem arises (in my experience) from the fact that her classes were given away while she was on maternity. It could be seen as a form of discrimination. They shouldn't have been removed from her timetable and given to the third chemistry teacher.
However, my reading of it is that you had chemistry first and now that numbers have fallen it should probably remain on your timetable and if it is on the timetable of the third teacher it should be given to the teacher who was on maternity leave.
We had an issue similar to this a couple of years ago in my school where maternity leave is not a justification for removing subjects from a teachers timetable and replacing them with filler subjects.
Anyway, I digress. If chemistry is your only senior subject that you are qualified in, I would be insisting that it be reinstated on your timetable.
Do the other two teachers have other subjects other than Chemistry/JC Science?0 -
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rainbowtrout wrote: »The problem arises (in my experience) from the fact that her classes were given away while she was on maternity. It could be seen as a form of discrimination. They shouldn't have been removed from her timetable and given to the third chemistry teacher.
However, my reading of it is that you had chemistry first and now that numbers have fallen it should probably remain on your timetable and if it is on the timetable of the third teacher it should be given to the teacher who was on maternity leave.
We had an issue similar to this a couple of years ago in my school where maternity leave is not a justification for removing subjects from a teachers timetable and replacing them with filler subjects.
Anyway, I digress. If chemistry is your only senior subject that you are qualified in, I would be insisting that it be reinstated on your timetable.
Do the other two teachers have other subjects other than Chemistry/JC Science?
The other teachers in the school were not employed to be Chemistry teachers.
They were employed to do Biology/Science.
Chemistry became available as a result of the extra demand required as a result of my work in the subject. Both teachers have used my resources entirely for their classes. Any resources that they did themselves they did not offer to share with me.
They then decided they wanted to keep doing Chemistry and both teachers have been approaching the Principal privately (with meetings, letters, etc. .) with one in a more aggressive manner than the other.
So the Principal moves me off to a very weak 5th Year Maths class and adds even more Maths to my timetable0 -
rainbowtrout wrote: »I don't agree, not if the other teacher went on a begging campaign to get the chemistry class. That isn't the principal timetabling for the needs of the school, that's timetabling to the demands of one teacher.
It depends on how competent they are to teach Maths. Or another subject. If the principal feels that Peter Flynnt is more able to teach Maths (s)he might have allocated it on that basis. People can make all the representations they want but that doesn't mean the principal has to listen.0 -
Peter Flynt wrote: »The other teachers in the school were not employed to be Chemistry teachers.
They were employed to do Biology/Science.
Chemistry became available as a result of the extra demand required as a result of my work in the subject. Both teachers have used my resources entirely for their classes. Any resources that they did themselves they did not offer to share with me.
They then decided they wanted to keep doing Chemistry and both teachers have been approaching the Principal privately (with meetings, letters, etc. .) with one in a more aggressive manner than the other.
So the Principal moves me off to a very weak 5th Year Maths class and adds even more Maths to my timetable
You should also make the same representations then so.0 -
It depends on how competent they are to teach Maths. Or another subject. If the principal feels that Peter Flynnt is more able to teach Maths (s)he might have allocated it on that basis. People can make all the representations they want but that doesn't mean the principal has to listen.
I thought there was a drive on to have qualified teachers teaching maths regardless of competence.
If the other teachers are Biology teachers, they should be teaching Biology, not Chemistry especially when there is a qualified Chemistry teacher in the school.
Peter, are either of these teachers qualified in Chemistry?0 -
It depends on how competent they are to teach Maths. Or another subject. If the principal feels that Peter Flynnt is more able to teach Maths (s)he might have allocated it on that basis. People can make all the representations they want but that doesn't mean the principal has to listen.
Trust me - It's not a question of ability to teach Maths.
It's the Principal acceding to the demands of another teacher.
She didn't even have the decency to let me know.
she simply scoured the timetable looking for Maths classes to fill up my timetable.0 -
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rainbowtrout wrote: »I thought there was a drive on to have qualified teachers teaching maths regardless of competence.
If the other teachers are Biology teachers, they should be teaching Biology, not Chemistry especially when there is a qualified Chemistry teacher in the school.
Peter, are either of these teachers qualified in Chemistry?
I think that both are qualified to teach Chemistry.
They are already teaching Biology. . . But they want to teach Chemistry also.
They are also claiming successes in Chemistry on the back of huge volume of resources that I have given them.
Am I paying for my stupidity here?0 -
Peter Flynt wrote: »I think that both are qualified to teach Chemistry.
They are already teaching Biology. . . But they want to teach Chemistry also.
They are also claiming successes in Chemistry on the back of huge volume of resources that I have given them.
Am I paying for my stupidity here?
Possibly but no point worrying about that now. You may have to tackle this from the angle that your only LC subject is chemistry so it needs to be put on your timetable. The other teachers have other subjects.0 -
Peter, did the principal not discuss next years classes with you before the end of the year?
It was always the practice in my school to be called in re next years classes, until latter years when the myriad of part time teachers gladly accepting any crumbs from the table went to her head. I made sure to continue the practice by making an appointment for the purpose.
If you had no warning I would certainly not accept that timetable without a fight.0 -
Peter, did the principal not discuss next years classes with you before the end of the year?
It was always the practice in my school to be called in re next years classes, until latter years when the myriad of part time teachers gladly accepting any crumbs from the table went to her head. I made sure to continue the practice by making an appointment for the purpose.
If you had no warning I would certainly not accept that timetable without a fight.
no - No notification.
This is pretty much standard in my school. They get the timetables done by the end of June and run off on holidays in July . . . Hoping that any shocks have calmed down since then.0 -
Peter Flynt wrote: »no - No notification.
This is pretty much standard in my school. They get the timetables done by the end of June and run off on holidays in July . . . Hoping that any shocks have calmed down since then.
There's always email. State that you need an urgent meeting at end July or beginning Aug. You've basically been demoted. If the principal wants to accommodate the second teacher there are other methods of achieving this eg through consultation.
If you get nowhere this year, insist on a meeting in Sept as de facto head of dept about future planning. Be pragmatic and decide on a couple of solutions that are acceptable to you that you can put forward eg you keep the base class and second classes go to the other teachers in rotation, or that you are willing to exchange Junior Sci for maths etc. As much as it may gall you, promote your track record and that you're the source of the increase in numbers and explain how you welcomed the second teacher, acting as their mentor and providing the scaffolding for their success. It can be a great help having a second teacher working with you, but your seniority should be recognised.
On the other hand, maths is a much easier subject to handle in many ways....0 -
There's always email. State that you need an urgent meeting at end July or beginning Aug. You've basically been demoted. If the principal wants to accommodate the second teacher there are other methods of achieving this eg through consultation.
If you get nowhere this year, insist on a meeting in Sept as de facto head of dept about future planning. Be pragmatic and decide on a couple of solutions that are acceptable to you that you can put forward eg you keep the base class and second classes go to the other teachers in rotation, or that you are willing to exchange Junior Sci for maths etc. As much as it may gall you, promote your track record and that you're the source of the increase in numbers and explain how you welcomed the second teacher, acting as their mentor and providing the scaffolding for their success. It can be a great help having a second teacher working with you, but your seniority should be recognised.
On the other hand, maths is a much easier subject to handle in many ways....
Would agree with all of the above, the only thing I would say is that if Peter was to accept Maths and Chemistry undegoes a demise in the school and it ends up disappearing off the timetable, he is left without a subject that he is qualified in at LC level which further increases the likelihood of filler subjects appearing on his timetable.
I'm not saying maths is filler, but if another teacher down the line challenged the fact that he was unqualified in maths and they were qualified in maths, it could leave him in an awkward position.0 -
I feel your pain and completely understand your resentment but you have to look at it from another point of view. If the other teachers are qualified to teach Chemistry then there is nothing wrong with giving them Chemistry classes.....while the increased numbers doing it are down to you that doesn't mean that the Senior Chemistry classes are yours forevermore. I've been there....was the senior teacher in my subject as an older colleague was away on a continuous career break. When she eventually resigned and was replaced (when that still happened!) I was still nice and comfortable in my position always getting the LC classes while the newer teacher got the odd Junior class in 'MY' subject (silly I know!) and when she started to make noises at wanting a crack at the LC classes I did resent it privately (had no right, I know!-just felt like that). I'm not one to go complaining to the Principal, I choose my battles, and knew in this case that really I had no grounds to be territorial but still was annoyed when she got the 5th Year class I felt I should have had. I'm glad I didn't go in making a fuss as it was actually nice to not have the LC class for once when their mock exams came around or the pressures leading up to June etc. we tend to alternate now which suits us both and we work well together and share resources. I know that isn't your original question - it is wrong that you have so much Maths when you aren't qualified to teach it but I don't think you'd be so annoyed if you didn't resent her getting 'your' Chemistry class. No judgement....as I said I've been there but I also know that at other colleagues retirement parties I've been amazed to hear in their speeches what they were originally employed to teach and what I've seen them teach in the years I've been working with them. Its good to evolve as a teacher over the years and take on new challenges rather than be enshrined as THE teacher of ' insert subj.'
Hope that doesn't sound patronising as that isn't my intention and hope you get something sorted if you really are unhappy. : )0 -
Peter Flynt wrote: »Trust me - It's not a question of ability to teach Maths.
It's the Principal acceding to the demands of another teacher.
She didn't even have the decency to let me know.
she simply scoured the timetable looking for Maths classes to fill up my timetable.
Sorry I came across incorrectly, I didn't mean to imply that you weren't up to teaching Maths. I was suggesting that maybe your principal feels you are better able to teach Maths than they are.0 -
Many thanks for the responses there - especially from RH149 who has gone through something similar.
I would agree with Pwpane that this is an effective demotion. Let's put it this way - I have been given the lowest stream Mathematics class in fifth year to teach where OL will be a huge struggle for them. This was not done as some sort of recognition of my abilities to teach Maths. It was done to basically fill up my 22 hours. I have no problems with those kids of course - It's a huge difference from LCHL Chemistry in 5th Year with a much smaller class.
Whilst it's unlikely that Chemistry will disappear off the timetable (as I'm in a large school) it may disappear off MY timetable.
I should also mention that I did receive a phone call about 6th YR Chem (which I will be teaching) - The Principal asked me to take 26 students as two classes were to be amalgamated (the max is 24). I agreed to do so. No mention of 5th Chem occurred.
The issue of another teacher looking to teach my subject isn't really the point. I've shown my professionalism with huge volumes of help and assistance and I'm replaced by a teacher going on a campaign to replace me. The point is - The JOB'S TAKEN. . . Or at least I thought it was. I have served for 8 years as a subject coordinator in addition so the very least that could have been done is that I could have been told.
It seems to me that I made terrible mistakes in assisting other teachers. They were more than happy to take the notes, PowerPoints, worksheets etc. . and then claim entirely 100% of the credit.
There are other teachers in other subject departments in my school who don't share resources and some even warned me about my generosity.
Is this fair?0 -
Fair play on building your subject up so successfully. What is unfair here is that there was no discussion with you on the matter. However I would think that it is fairly important to build up teaching capacity in a subject. Where there are qualified teachers in a subject, then some sort of rotation should take place. It can be soul destroying not to teach leaving cert for years on end. I waited 8 years to get a leaving cert class as I was effectively told to wait my turn for either the senior teacher to retire or for a second class to become available. My results were as good if not better when I finally got a foot in the door. I would definitely make my feelings known and insist on having the chemistry class in 2015.
I am sure you are disappointed to be given the lowest level maths class. I would not see it as an effective demotion though. There is great satisfaction in getting good results with weak classes. In our place the perceived honours maths teacher requests the lowest class every few years and puts as much work in to them as her top class. She prides herself more on the results she gets with these lads.0 -
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I know what you mean about sharing notes peter, then again when I started out I got notes from a teacher who literally wrote the book. I thought my ship had come in , but as the years went on I found they didn't suit the teaching that was going along in the class so I ended up scrapping them and doing my own. It might be different and more straight forward with chemistry though.
I gave my notes away left right and centre as I took an altruistic pov , if people benefit then they can have em . The real work I think is in the actual teaching and delivery and interaction with each different student.
Most of the subject reports I have read have reccommended sharing/rotating out the LC classes and Id say principals are aware of this. If you think about it too it would do anyone's head in to be qualified in a subject but never let teach it, its kind of undermining your teaching ability too if it is always taken for granted that its the other teachers job because ' they are better'.
There will probably be a period of adjustment and mistakes made in fairness, but if you take a long term perspective it could be the making of a great department. Also consider if you left the school/retired/hit by bus then the school and students would be rightly stuck with 2 inexperienced teachers.
In saying all the above though I would really highlight my concerns to principal .esp. about being sidelined/undermined. Maybe a letter to the Bom to be read into the record (is that too extreme?).
Basically ask the principal where she is going with this over the next few years. Are ye going to be on rotation every year? Maybe you might be open to sharing the weeks time table to play to yeer strengths in certain areas (mightnt be that practical to do for chemistry though).
Best of luck...0 -
No, the least that could have been done is that you were consulted.
Don't direct your ire in the wrong direction. It wasn't the other teachers who changed the subject allocation.
The principal may not know that you supplied all the resources but thinks the other teacher is wonderful to do so well as a newbie. Of course they may not care either. The other teacher may have something to give that the principal wants, in terms of extra curricular etc, or a personal story that 'pulls the heart strings'. Or it may just be the effect of 'the squeaky wheel'.0 -
Thanks for the responses above (Milosh, Armelodie and others)
I think it's worth pointing out that these teachers applied for and got appointed to LC BIOLOGY classes. They never applied for a Chemistry job as none was on offer.
I'm not denying them anything. I've assisted and enabled them professionally.
They found themselves with an opportunity to teach Chemistry on the basis of the advancements that I made in the school.
Now they've decided they want to stay in Chemistry AS WELL AS TEACH BIOLOGY.
So one (on maternity leave) wrote letters, made phone calls and arranged meetings in May to effectively demand that this occurred.
It has occurred and now I have to move off to another filler subject.0 -
Peter Flynt wrote: »Thanks for the responses above (Milosh, Armelodie and others)
I think it's worth pointing out that these teachers applied for and got appointed to LC BIOLOGY classes. They never applied for a Chemistry job as none was on offer.
That may be true but I think it's fairly common for teachers to move sideways into other areas once in the school. At least they are qualified!! I think every single subject teacher in the country is up-skilling into another subject these days.Peter Flynt wrote: »I'm not denying them anything. I've assisted and enabled them professionally.
They found themselves with an opportunity to teach Chemistry on the basis of the advancements that I made in the school.
I think here's the crux of your annoyance. Maybe consider if you were a teacher who had worked very hard to build this subject up and then retired or moved to another school.. where would the subject be then?
Maybe it's a good thing that the school has pre-empted this possibility (however slight!) and have acted to ensure that all the hard work you have done will not go to waste. Nobody knows more than you how hard it is to grow a subject, could you imagine if you left and THEN the other Chemistry teachers would take over?
I take it that you don;t have a dept. head position but are a de facto dept. head.. Maybe mention that if the school want you to take a back seat in the long term that you would let others take over (keeping up the subject folder, ordering equipment, planning etc, not getting paid for all the extra work!!!!.) This might put the skids under them a bit as the principal might be thinking " ah shur it'll be grand Peter Flynt will keep an eye on everything!"... A big hand to play though!Peter Flynt wrote: »Now they've decided they want to stay in Chemistry AS WELL AS TEACH BIOLOGY.
So one (on maternity leave) wrote letters, made phone calls and arranged meetings in May to effectively demand that this occurred.
I think though that it's perfectly run of the mill for other teachers to make a case for teaching a subject in which they are qualified in (even if it's a massive letter writing campaign,Peter Flynt wrote: »It has occurred and now I have to move off to another filler subject.
This is indeed worrying but as long as you will have your foot in Chemistry every year then it mightnt be so bad (god help them if they have a maths subject inspection though and ask for qualifications). OL maths is a lot harder to teach than HL.. esp the bottom streams... they know theyre at the bottom so the motivation ain't there. The HL classes have their own pressures but are easier in the sense that everyone there wants to do well!0 -
Thanks Armelodie above.
Just to let you know. A colleague of mine, who teaches Biology, has been moved out of Biology to also take up, yes you've guessed it, 15 classes of Maths (10 hours) and he too is not recognised by the TC to teach the subject.
We are both males in a female-staff (5:1) dominated girls secondary school and there is a real sense of the jobs being handed out to the girls here. This is a school where all 8 APs are female with 8 out of 10 B Posts holders also.
We are actually considering joining the Maths department in recognition of the huge amount of Maths now on the timetable.0 -
Peter Flynt wrote: »Thanks Armelodie above.
Just to let you know. A colleague of mine, who teaches Biology, has been moved out of Biology to also take up, yes you've guessed it, 15 classes of Maths (10 hours) and he too is not recognised by the TC to teach the subject.
We are actually considering joining the Maths department in recognition of the huge amount of Maths now on the timetable.
It's really worrying me that so many science teachers are been thrown into Maths. How regularly is this happening? Would you be required to teach Maths to LC level?
After the big deal that was made of ensuring all maths teachers are qualified to teach the subject, its depressing. I'm not saying that someone with a science degree isnt capable of the job but the switch to project maths and new teaching methodologies make it a very different subject to teach than 5 5 years ago. Experienced maths teachers were anxious about the shift and now its back to the stage where management are asking people who arent recognised as maths teachers to teach the subject.0 -
To echo what Milosh and Armelodie said, I don't think that you should think of this as a demotion and I certainly don't think that being to one to teach the weakest maths class is a slight. The principal might have felt that the other alternatives wouldn't be able to handle the class, regardless of mathematical ability and wanted a steady hand on the tiller as it were. Essentially I'm saying that your getting the weakest class might well be a reflection of your being an experienced and able teacher who can be trusted to get the most out of weak students.
I also admire that you're willing to share your resources with your colleagues as many teachers aren't. As someone else said, resources only get you so far anyway. Ultimately a good teacher will do well and a poor teacher won't, even with the best resources. It's good for the school and it's good for the subject in general to maximise performance by sharing resources.
Given how much you've advanced the subject in your school though, you should definitely seek assurances that you will have fifth year chemistry next year. You never know, a bit of a break for the year with only one leaving cert chemistry class might enable you to see things that you might not have seen otherwise and improve you as a chemistry teacher. None of is are perfect after all.
Go into it with positivity and see how things go. If nothing else, you won't have to spend as much time preparing experiments this year.0 -
A few random thoughts:
I do believe that where two or more teachers are qualified to teach a subject, that the more "pleasant" classes (highly motivated Leaving Cert Honours classes, for instance) should be rotated between all the teachers.
I also believe in the importance of attempting to equitably distribute the burden of "tough" classes between all the teachers in a school, for health and safety reasons. To give an unusual example (although I have known it to happen), it is entirely wrong, in my view, to have one teacher in a school teaching almost nothing but one-to-ones, while another similarly and even more qualified teacher is given nothing but classes of 20+ students where all the students have special needs and is charged with preparing them for unpopular subjects such as Junior Cert Irish.
I would also say that nobody should believe that women are "the weaker sex". They most certainly are not.
Some apparently "weak" female teachers are capable of harassing, whining, crying, browbeating, nagging and even bullying principals into giving them this, that or the other and over the course of a few years these whingers can finish up with the biggest dosses of a timetable in the school while the ones who don't open their mouths no matter what excrement is thrown at them end up with crippling burdens to carry. These latter teachers end up burnt out early and having to retire earlier on small pensions.
Meantime, the whiners feck off home early every day with their day's work finished to make their perfect dinners at 2.30 pm while the drones collapse in the door at 7pm and can barely summons up the energy to order in a takeaway.0 -
this year I lost my 5th year hl geog class to a teacher who hasnt taught the subject in 12 years. myself and one of the other teachers used always rotate them but this one hopped up saying she wanted back in which was fine but not at that level. because she's been there longer than me she got her way. I'm gutted as well. ive 2 classes of cspe and 2 sphe now instead.
also in may my usb stick went missing for 2 days and she handed it back to me
it makes me mad but nothing I can do. 0 -
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I suppose the equivalent would be as follows:
Imagine I stayed in Maths and went off and got the qualification etc which recognises then I teach it. Then I decide I want to teach HL Maths so I approach the Principal with phone calls, emails, letters and visits.
I'm pretty the incumbents would be pīssed off if I took over - especially if the Principal didn't bother to inform them.0
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