Forced Market Research on Trains

foggy_lad · 21-06-2014 11:41pm #1

I got the train to Cork earlier today and the strangest thing happened during the journey:D

I boarded in Portlaoise and there was a woman going through the whole train "checking" tickets. you might ask what is strange about that because trains regularly have ticket checks but this woman was not an Irish Rail or RPU employee but was working for a company called Amárach doing market research!

Just to be clear this woman was not asking passengers if they would like to take part in a survey or if she could ask them a few questions about their journey but she was going to every table and row of seats demanding to see tickets from passengers as if she was an RPU agent. There was no mention at all of market research or her taking personal details including names addresses and PPS numbers for a private research company!

All the passengers I saw obviously thought she was a legitimate ticket checker and obliged when she turned to them and said "tickets please". She was writing down the particulars of each ticket including the numbers etc for the online printout tickets and she was also demanding to examine free travel passes from passengers with social welfare tickets and writing down details from the passes including name and PPS numbers! Passengers clearly thought she worked for Irish Rail. There may also be data protection issues with this woman gather this information from passengers who believe she works for Irish Rail not some research company!

I asked the train host what she was up to and he told me who she was and that she apparently had permission to be on the train, He told me that I did not have to show her my ticket or answer her questions if I did not want to.

She had a letter that gave her permission to be on station concourses and platforms and also on vehicles but only where passengers had access. It did not give any permission to take, check or record passengers details or their travel arrangements.

Anyway she got to me and I asked what she was doing and she said a ticket check so I asked was she an Irish Rail employee and she went into a speil about how her company are doing a survey on trains for Irish Rail so she is working for Irish Rail and is authorised to check tickets and also demand and check all free travel passes and other travel cards and student cards.

At this stage I asked if she had a rail warrant card or an Irish Rail staff ID as advised by someone on the Rail users Ireland twitter feed. She said no so I refused to show my ticket and told her I did not want to take part in any market research or survey. she then told me about her letter giving her permission to do all her ticket checking so I asked to see that but she said she didn't have it because the driver had it. What was she doing in the driving cab if she only had permission to go where passengers were allowed?

Anyway was I right to create a little mini-scene on the train?(there was no shouting or fisticuffs) Should I have just handed over my information to a company acting in such a sleazy manner?

Was this woman right to be forcing a captive audience to take part in a survey they knew nothing about and allowing passengers to think she was an RPU agent/Irish Rail staff by her manner and actions?

TL;DR Woman pretended to be irish rail ticket checker to gather market research information from people who may not have entertained her if they were told the truth. Might also be data protection issues.

SeanW · 22-06-2014 12:33am

That sounds seriously dodgy, alright, especially the bit about taking peoples names, addresses and PPS numbers.

I've had a passing look at the topic of data protection legislation and there are strict limits to what sort of data you can gather, under what circumstances, what you can do with it and how long a data controller can keep it.

I imagine the Data Protection Commissioner would take a dim view of this if informed. You were dead right to "make as scene."

Grolschevik · 22-06-2014 12:36am

Was your trauma worth the time it took to type that?

I hope so, because it certainly wasn't worth the time it took me to read it. And I skipped...

(Amarach are a respected and legit market research company who no doubt have been contracted by Irish Rail to survey passengers for a particular reason. Perhaps to do with misuse of social welfare passes, based on your anecdote).

AltAccount · 22-06-2014 7:10am

Grolschevik wrote: »

Was your trauma worth the time it took to type that?

I hope so, because it certainly wasn't worth the time it took me to read it. And I skipped...

(Amarach are a respected and legit market research company who no doubt have been contracted by Irish Rail to survey passengers for a particular reason. Perhaps to do with misuse of social welfare passes, based on your anecdote).

Wow, that's a healthy bit of disrespect there!

Is it not fair to expect to be allowed to opt out of a marketing survey?
Do you not agree that the woman was misrepresenting herself?

monument · 22-06-2014 7:18am

Grolschevik wrote: »

Was your trauma worth the time it took to type that?

I hope so, because it certainly wasn't worth the time it took me to read it. And I skipped...

Read the Commuting and Transport Charter before posting again! If you don't like threads, skip them.

Note to all: No more replying to this.

- Mod

lazeedaisy · 22-06-2014 7:26am

I would have done exactly the same.

Give people a little power!

Fair play to you for challenging her.

corktina · 22-06-2014 8:54am

spot on Foggy, Take it up with IE and the survey company

Hilly Bill · 22-06-2014 12:13pm

Thread title is misleading. Its not forced.

Hilly Bill · 22-06-2014 12:23pm

AltAccount wrote: »

Wow, that's a healthy bit of disrespect there!

Is it not fair to expect to be allowed to opt out of a marketing survey?
Do you not agree that the woman was misrepresenting herself?

People can be suspicious and sometimes mistake as to what is actually happening. Ive seen them work before, they say who they are and ask if they can ask questions based on travelling habits and what type of tickets you use etc. Its not forced nor is any personal details stored.
If one of them has taking it to the extreme then thats a different matter and shouldnt be allowed to do it again.
2 course of action here, report her to her company and also to Irish Rail.
One thing i find strange though that this was reported on twitter and all of a sudden the OP has a ready made thread

.

monument · 22-06-2014 12:28pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Thread title is misleading. Its not forced.

'Forced' does not exclusively mean physical forced.

Hilly Bill · 22-06-2014 12:35pm

I didnt say physically did i.

_Kaiser_ · 22-06-2014 12:42pm

I'd lodge a formal complaint with IE and the Data Protection Commissioner OP

Not a chance would I be handing over personal info to some market research young one who was misrepresenting herself as an IE/Department employee (or certainly taking advantage of people's assumption of same by her approach)

gctest50 · 22-06-2014 12:56pm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Not a chance would I be handing over personal info to some market research young one

for sure - you'd be haunted for ever with junk mail

uck51js9zml2yt · 22-06-2014 12:58pm

Did a survey recently on The train and was asked if I wanted the take part in it. Purely voluntarily.
I had no problem with just filling in the parts I wanted. They didn't need my personal information for the purposes of the survey.

foggy_lad · 22-06-2014 1:07pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

People can be suspicious and sometimes mistake as to what is actually happening. Ive seen them work before, they say who they are and ask if they can ask questions based on travelling habits and what type of tickets you use etc. Its not forced nor is any personal details stored.
If one of them has taking it to the extreme then thats a different matter and shouldnt be allowed to do it again.
2 course of action here, report her to her company and also to Irish Rail.
One thing i find strange though that this was reported on twitter and all of a sudden the OP has a ready made thread .

I thought I had been clear enough about how this woman was approaching people on the train but will repeat that she approached each table and row of seats and demanded tickets from people. When she saw social welfare tickets or student tickets she asked for the free pass or student card used. she took down details from the tickets and also from free travel passes and student cards.

At no time did this woman introduce herself as being an employee of a marketing agency and at no time were passengers told that participation was voluntary, in fact she told me that she was authorised to do a ticket check by Irish Rail and that I had to produce my ticket, but she could not produce this authorisation.

Let's be clear and state that 99% of the people on that train assumed(quite reasonably) that this woman was an Irish Rail employee authorised to check tickets but she had no more authority than any other passenger.

KCAccidental · 22-06-2014 1:07pm

I was on a late night train in Germany a few years ago when something similar happened. I even tried the old "Ich spreche kein Deutsch" trick, but he was having none of it! it was a similar survey about tickets and usage etc.

foggy_lad · 22-06-2014 1:13pm

Annie Wonderful Beggar wrote: »

Did a survey recently on The train and was asked if I wanted the take part in it. Purely voluntarily.
I had no problem with just filling in the parts I wanted. They didn't need my personal information for the purposes of the survey.

Was this for Irish Rail? I have seen other people doing surveys on the Cork train but usually for their own purposes such as research for their studies. These people usually have no permission to be doing a survey on the train and can be thrown off the train.

I would have had no issue with this woman yesterday if an announcement was made in each car that she was doing a survey and that participation was 100% voluntary but to pretend to be a ticket checker and demand tickets in tha same way Irish Rail staff do and then record names and addresses and PPS numbers is not on at all!

emuhead · 22-06-2014 1:20pm

I would definately report her to her organisation. The misrepresentation and the gathering of sensitive personal information without informed consent is very unethical, not to mention unprofessional.

I work in research and the most basic ethical principle we observe is informed consent. You must identify the organisation you are working for and the purpose of the data gathering. It appears this researcher did not bother to do either.

Hilly Bill · 22-06-2014 1:26pm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I'd lodge a formal complaint with IE and the Data Protection Commissioner OP

Not a chance would I be handing over personal info to some market research young one who was misrepresenting herself as an IE/Department employee (or certainly taking advantage of people's assumption of same by her approach)

They dont ask for personal info nor do they claim to be IE. They have badges to show who they are.

Hilly Bill · 22-06-2014 1:31pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

I thought I had been clear enough about how this woman was approaching people on the train but will repeat that she approached each table and row of seats and demanded tickets from people. When she saw social welfare tickets or student tickets she asked for the free pass or student card used. she took down details from the tickets and also from free travel passes and student cards.

At no time did this woman introduce herself as being an employee of a marketing agency and at no time were passengers told that participation was voluntary, in fact she told me that she was authorised to do a ticket check by Irish Rail and that I had to produce my ticket, but she could not produce this authorisation.

Let's be clear and state that 99% of the people on that train assumed(quite reasonably) that this woman was an Irish Rail employee authorised to check tickets but she had no more authority than any other passenger.

Did you do your own survey? They have no reason to take down any details of passes Foggy, they just tick the relevant boxes.
What train was it Foggy?

Hilly Bill · 22-06-2014 1:36pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Was this for Irish Rail? I have seen other people doing surveys on the Cork train but usually for their own purposes such as research for their studies. These people usually have no permission to be doing a survey on the train and can be thrown off the train.

I would have had no issue with this woman yesterday if an announcement was made in each car that she was doing a survey and that participation was 100% voluntary but to pretend to be a ticket checker and demand tickets in tha same way Irish Rail staff do and then record names and addresses and PPS numbers is not on at all!

An extra bite to the story Foggy? They dont record names and addresses and pps numbers Foggy just the type of ticket used thats all.

foggy_lad · 22-06-2014 1:39pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They dont ask for personal info nor do they claim to be IE. They have badges to show who they are.

This woman wrote down names and addressses and PPS numbers as well as departure and destination for passengers.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Did you do your own survey? They have no reason to take down any details of passes Foggy, they just tick the relevant boxes.
What train was it Foggy?

I refused to hand over my ticket to her and told her I would not take part in any marketing or survey. she told me I had to because she was authorised to do a ticket check on behalf of Irish rail but could not produce this authorisation.
THIS WOMAN WAS TAKING DOWN PERSONAL DETAILS!
What train it was is not relevant.

Hilly Bill · 22-06-2014 1:50pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

This woman wrote down names and addressses and PPS numbers as well as departure and destination for passengers.

I refused to hand over my ticket to her and told her I would not take part in any marketing or survey. she told me I had to because she was authorised to do a ticket check on behalf of Irish rail but could not produce this authorisation.
THIS WOMAN WAS TAKING DOWN PERSONAL DETAILS!
What train it was is not relevant.

The train time IS relevant

How did you get your 99% ? Are you saying everyone was fooled apart from you?
She would have a badge hanging from her neck and the authorisation in her folder.
Ticking boxes is not taking down personal details Foggy. There is nowhere on their forms to enter anyone's personal details.
Seriously, you would have to be pretty foolish to give someone your private details on a train regardless how official the survey was.

foggy_lad · 22-06-2014 2:05pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The train time IS relevant

How exactly?

How did you get your 99% ? Are you saying everyone was fooled apart from you?
She would have a badge hanging from her neck and the authorisation in her folder.

Name badge pinned to her jacket but not very clear to people stting on the train, as stated clearly already she had no authorisation to check tickets and didn't even have permission to conduct the survey on board because she stated the driver had this!

Ticking boxes is not taking down personal details Foggy. There is nowhere on their forms to enter anyone's personal details.
Seriously, you would have to be pretty foolish to give someone your private details on a train regardless how official the survey was.

She was not just ticking boxes, she filled out an a4 page for every 4 seat table and was writing names and PPS numbers from free travel passes and other travel and student cards.

People were not asked their personal details directly, they handed over their tickets to someone who presented herself as staff doing a ticket check! she wrote down details from each ticket, she demanded free travel passes from those travelling with social welfare tickets and wrote down their name address and PPS numbers.

As far as people were aware this woman was authorised to demand and check their tickets but she was not!

Just because you imagine it happened a certain way does not make it so.

Vic_08 · 22-06-2014 2:09pm

Oh dear, another thread of moaning about having to show your free travel documents.

This is more utter drivel and as far as I can see the only person out of line was you for refusing to show your ticket/pass.

It is part of the IE conditions of carriage that you are required to show your valid ticket, or in your case your pass, at any time to any authorised person.

Part of the identity verification of your pass is name, address (on old passes only), pass number and ID number which often includes PPS number. An authorised person can at anytime inspect these documents any way they wish, including recording the details for further checks, verification or accounting purposes.

If you do not like this and wish to remain anonymous then you are free to leave the pass at home and purchase a standard undiscounted adult ticket from a ticket office or machine.

foggy_lad · 22-06-2014 2:12pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

Oh dear, another thread of moaning about having to show your free travel documents.

This is more utter drivel and as far as I can see the only person out of line was you for refusing to show your ticket/pass.

It is part of the IE conditions of carriage that you are required to show your valid ticket, or in your case your pass, at any time to any authorised person.

Part of the identity verification of your pass is name, address (on old passes only), pass number and ID number which often includes PPS number. An authorised person can at anytime inspect these documents any way they wish, including recording the details for further checks or verification.

If you do not like this and wish to remain anonymous then you are free to leave the pass at home and purchase a standard undiscounted adult ticket from a ticket office or machine.

This woman was not authorised to do any more than ask people to take part in her survey, she has no more authority than any other person on the train!

If she had shown that she was authorised I would have produced my ticket but she was not authorised.

conditions of carriage dont come into it unless the person is authorised and this person wasn't................

Hilly Bill · 22-06-2014 2:15pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

How exactly?
Name badge pinned to her jacket but not very clear to people stting on the train, as stated clearly already she had no authorisation to check tickets and didn't even have permission to conduct the survey on board because she stated the driver had this!
She was not just ticking boxes, she filled out an a4 page for every 4 seat table and was writing names and PPS numbers from free travel passes and other travel and student cards.

People were not asked their personal details directly, they handed over their tickets to someone who presented herself as staff doing a ticket check! she wrote down details from each ticket, she demanded free travel passes from those travelling with social welfare tickets and wrote down their name address and PPS numbers.

As far as people were aware this woman was authorised to demand and check their tickets but she was not!

Just because you imagine it happened a certain way does not make it so.

Ive learned over the years that you like to add a little bit extra to your posts.

The train time is important if you are complaining about this woman . Was it morning or the evening?

Hilly Bill · 22-06-2014 2:18pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

Oh dear, another thread of moaning about having to show your free travel documents.

This is more utter drivel and as far as I can see the only person out of line was you for refusing to show your ticket/pass.

It is part of the IE conditions of carriage that you are required to show your valid ticket, or in your case your pass, at any time to any authorised person.

Part of the identity verification of your pass is name, address (on old passes only), pass number and ID number which often includes PPS number. An authorised person can at anytime inspect these documents any way they wish, including recording the details for further checks, verification or accounting purposes.

If you do not like this and wish to remain anonymous then you are free to leave the pass at home and purchase a standard undiscounted adult ticket from a ticket office or machine.

He wasnt in this case, the person was only doing a survey for IR and Foggy didnt have to partake in it if he didnt want to.

goingnowhere · 22-06-2014 2:22pm

To be fair to the OP, there was no "authorised person", the OP was completely correct to decline the request to show their ticket.

Vic_08 · 22-06-2014 2:22pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

This woman was not authorised to do any more than ask people to take part in her survey, she has no more authority than any other person on the train!

She was surveying tickets of passengers nothing more, on behalf of IE which would make her an authorised person.

You seem to have a problem with simple logic; a condition of using IE services is that you provide when requested your travel documents for whatever reason and to whoever IE choose.

Hilly Bill · 22-06-2014 2:24pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

This woman was not authorised to do any more than ask people to take part in her survey, she has no more authority than any other person on the train!

If she had shown that she was authorised I would have produced my ticket but she was not authorised.

conditions of carriage dont come into it unless the person is authorised and this person wasn't................

Why would anyone else on that train do a survey?

So you agree that she was authorised to ask people to take part in a survey but refused to take part because she didnt show you the authorisation?

Forced Market Research on Trains

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