Property tax means you don't own your home.

Jimmy Garlic · 06-06-2014 3:25am #1

Property tax is money extorted from you by the state, you get absolutely nothing in return. Choose not to pay and you will be eventually be treated as a criminal, financially ruined, or even evicted, despite the fact you have done no harm to anyone. The system is contemptible and it is the essence of serfdom. If you have to pay a tax on your home then you simply don't own it anymore, you are paying rent to the state.

Sir Arthur Daley · 06-06-2014 3:27am

If the bank has the deeds to your house do you own it?

The Diabolical Monocle · 06-06-2014 3:30am

The unfortunate consequence of people buying golden toilets for their Bulgarian apartments while on weekend NY shopping trips back in 2005.

Jimmy Garlic · 06-06-2014 3:30am

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

If the bank has the deeds to your house do you own it?

No. If you own it then you should have the deeds.

Sir Arthur Daley · 06-06-2014 3:31am

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

No. If you own it then you should have the deeds.

So if you dont have the deeds should the bank pay it?

Cookie_Monster · 06-06-2014 3:34am

:rolleyes:

of course you own it, stop being ridiculous

Jimmy Garlic · 06-06-2014 3:34am

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

So if you dont have the deeds should the bank pay it?

Nobody should pay it, it's concocted.

Sir Arthur Daley · 06-06-2014 3:36am

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Nobody should pay it, it's concocted.

Rrright, should we ring or twitter machine Joe?

Jimmy Garlic · 06-06-2014 3:37am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

:rolleyes:

of course you own it, stop being ridiculous

What happens if you don't give them the money they demand?

Turtwig · 06-06-2014 3:38am

Motor tax, sorry, road tax, means you don't own your vehicle.

B.A._Baracus · 06-06-2014 3:38am

Lets all step back and look at the property tax for a second...
Buying a house costs a lot of money. Its far from buying a 40 inch HDTV. Which can only take a few paychecks worth of savings to pay for.

But no. The government wants to tax you for something that costs an arm and a leg. Something that can take up to 35 years to pay for.

So I ask.... Define "freedom"
Now I know that is a "first world problems" type of question. Go over to some other kip in the world and see what freedom's all about. But... the question is asked within Ireland about Ireland.

Jimmy Garlic · 06-06-2014 3:40am

Turtwig wrote: »

Motor tax, sorry, road tax, means you don't own your vehicle.

Exactly. If you don't give them the money they demand then the car that you paid for will be taken from you.

Turtwig · 06-06-2014 3:41am

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

So I ask.... Define "freedom"
.

The state of being free.

B.A._Baracus · 06-06-2014 3:44am

Turtwig wrote: »

The state of being free.

Not unless you pay your property tax or tv license

But I give you a 5 out of 10 for your smart arse comment. Could have been better tho

Jimmy Garlic · 06-06-2014 3:47am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

:rolleyes:

of course you own it, stop being ridiculous

If someone decided that you had to give them money because you wear clothes, and used threats to extract that money from you, would you still own your clothes?

Sir Arthur Daley · 06-06-2014 3:51am

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

So I ask.... Define "freedom"

What is your definition of it?

Jimmy Garlic · 06-06-2014 4:05am

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

What is your definition of it?

Freedom is the ability to live your life as you see fit, and without threat, as long as you do no harm to others. If some entity can use menace to take the fruits of your labour, just because they can, then you are not free.

Sir Arthur Daley · 06-06-2014 4:08am

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Freedom is the ability to live your life as you see fit, and without threat, as long as you do no harm to others. If some entity can use menace to take the fruits of your labour, just because they can, then you are not free.

I was asking B.A._Baracus. What has that post got to do with property tax?

Turtwig · 06-06-2014 4:13am

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

If someone decided that you had to give them money because you wear clothes, and used threats to extract that money from you, would you still own your clothes?

Not your best analogy. They wouldn't be your clothes if you didn't own them. Your mobile is owned by you by virtue of the fact that it's "your" mobile phone. So yep this person still owns their clothes that they get beaten for.

Putting your analogy aside I see your point. What is the point in owning something for which your in constant fear of losing. In truth, this applies to everything in society and not just tax. Such is how fragile and interdependent our way of life has become.

Staying relevant to taxes, if you want the state to provide services then you need to provide it with funds. Taxes, like any system, can be abused but I don't see how a state like Ireland can avoid a property tax. If you ask me it's a much fairer way of taxing than income tax. The latter really isn't a measure of a person's wealth.
The alternative would be to privatise everything and I don't think anyone would sleep soundly with a privatized justice system.
There has to be a balance, Ireland's state of finance and general social demographics mean that taxes will be prioritised over cuts and privatisation. Tax the rich as the ignorant electorate claim! (And ignore reality while you're at it)

Jimmy Garlic · 06-06-2014 4:14am

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

What has that post got to do with property tax?

Doesn't the state use threats in order to collect property tax?

Turtwig · 06-06-2014 4:24am

I'd imagine the concept of freedom as the ability to live your life to same potential as others. All individuals are equal to you. You are free from harm: That includes from other individuals, the state and private corporations. You have the freedom to pursue any dream you wish as long as it's not harmful to others. You have the safety net of society to catch you if things go very wrong for you. To get you back on your feet and seeking that potential again. (Within reason, chasing the potential of being the first person to visit another galaxy via gibberish, sorry homeopathy, may be a bit OTT)

And I guess that makes me a bit of a socialist. Because I can't envision a way such a freedom is created without a state support structure.

Cookie_Monster · 06-06-2014 4:45am

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Freedom is the ability to live your life as you see fit, and without threat, as long as you do no harm to others. If some entity can use menace to take the fruits of your labour, just because they can, then you are not free.

you go right ahead and try and do that without using the roads, hospitals, power, water, defence, social security, education etc etc etc you get in return for paying tax.

corner of hells · 06-06-2014 4:45am

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Lets all step back and look at the property tax for a second...
Buying a house costs a lot of money. Its far from buying a 40 inch HDTV. Which can only take a few paychecks worth of savings to pay for.

But no. The government wants to tax you for something that costs an arm and a leg. Something that can take up to 35 years to pay for.

So I ask.... Define "freedom"
Now I know that is a "first world problems" type of question. Go over to some other kip in the world and see what freedom's all about. But... the question is asked within Ireland about Ireland.

I stepped back , but after that I got a bit lost with your post , when you say " but no " are you answering a question or making a statement ?

donegal__road · 06-06-2014 5:00am

I know a lady that bought some land 30 years ago. Her son built her a house on the land 25 years ago. She has a natural spring well as a water supply, and she owns a wind turbine which powers her house. She has an organic garden at the front of the house which she lives off.. why should she pay property tax? what services is she being provided with by the government?

donegal__road · 06-06-2014 5:10am

hello... hello.... hello...... is there anybody out there..

Cookie_Monster · 06-06-2014 5:15am

donegal__road wrote: »

I know a lady that bought some land 30 years ago. Her son built her a house on the land 25 years ago. She has a natural spring well as a water supply, and she owns a wind turbine which powers her house. She has an organic garden at the front of the house which she lives off.. why should she pay property tax? what services is she being provided with by the government?

Does she not ever leave the property using roads or every avail of any of the local amenities and services?
TBH I'd rather pay some tax for local parks, hospitals etc than sit around at home all day guarding my modest borders from the evil Irish empire trying to tax it out from under me for 'no good reason'

Sir Arthur Daley · 06-06-2014 5:31am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Does she not ever leave the property using roads

Is this not what road tax is for?

Turtwig · 06-06-2014 5:32am

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Is this not what road tax is for?

What's road tax?

Cookie_Monster · 06-06-2014 5:33am

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Is this not what road tax is for?

oh, go **** right off with that road tax nonsense

Sir Arthur Daley · 06-06-2014 5:40am

Turtwig wrote: »

What's road tax?

You wouldnt know.

donegal__road · 06-06-2014 5:56am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Does she not ever leave the property using roads or every avail of any of the local amenities and services?
TBH I'd rather pay some tax for local parks, hospitals etc than sit around at home all day guarding my modest borders from the evil Irish empire trying to tax it out from under me for 'no good reason'

her son made a road leading down to the main road from her property.. it is not tarred, but it does the job.

Amenities and services such as?

Who is sitting at home all day?

kneemos · 06-06-2014 6:00am

donegal__road wrote: »

I know a lady that bought some land 30 years ago. Her son built her a house on the land 25 years ago. She has a natural spring well as a water supply, and she owns a wind turbine which powers her house. She has an organic garden at the front of the house which she lives off.. why should she pay property tax? what services is she being provided with by the government?

What does she do on calm days in this supposed self sufficient property?

Arthur Beesley · 06-06-2014 7:30am

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Property tax is money extorted from you by the state, you get absolutely nothing in return. Choose not to pay and you will be eventually be treated as a criminal, financially ruined, or even evicted, despite the fact you have done no harm to anyone. The system is contemptible and it is the essence of serfdom. If you have to pay a tax on your home then you simply don't own it anymore, you are paying rent to the state.

I'd love to be able to rent my place for a few hundred a year. Thanks dude.

comongethappy · 06-06-2014 7:41am

Is all tax not extortion?

I don't understand why the Irish get horny over a modest property tax, when the RTE tax is far more galling.

06-06-2014 7:47am

Teh roads!!!

dissed doc · 06-06-2014 7:50am

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Property tax is money extorted from you by the state, you get absolutely nothing in return. Choose not to pay and you will be eventually be treated as a criminal, financially ruined, or even evicted, despite the fact you have done no harm to anyone. The system is contemptible and it is the essence of serfdom. If you have to pay a tax on your home then you simply don't own it anymore, you are paying rent to the state.

Most taxes the state takes in, goes back to people that represent their interests politically. You do own your home, but the problem is that for the services like road surfacing, landscaping, policing, etc., in your neighbourhood, the government prefers to give it to the 50% of the population that are on the dole, won't support themselves, etc.,. This is also why you pay so much for a GP visit, because 1 or 2 others are getting their visit for free with a medical card.

In principle, a property tax is a good idea, and particularly good if you are a home owner, but their is no link (in Ireland at any rate) between paying the taxes and getting it used equitably local to you.

ezra_pound · 06-06-2014 7:54am

donegal__road wrote: »

I know a lady that bought some land 30 years ago. Her son built her a house on the land 25 years ago. She has a natural spring well as a water supply, and she owns a wind turbine which powers her house. She has an organic garden at the front of the house which she lives off.. why should she pay property tax? what services is she being provided with by the government?

What did the Romans ever do for us?

ezra_pound · 06-06-2014 7:56am

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Is this not what road tax is for?

It's called motor tax and it doesn't nearly cover the costs of building and maintaining our roads.

professore · 06-06-2014 7:59am

People are up in arms over property tax because it's the only direct tax they pay if they are on the dole - besides motor tax. If you're working the property tax is very little relative to all the other taxes you pay. The USC is far worse. The low threshold to paying the top rate of tax the same. Also if you're working in the private sector you don't have time to complain about being screwed 50 different ways. Just thinking that recently, no political party represents people like me. If your unemployed you have Sinn Fein, if you're permanent in a unionised job Labour. The others change with the wind.

Amirani · 06-06-2014 8:02am

donegal__road wrote: »

I know a lady that bought some land 30 years ago. Her son built her a house on the land 25 years ago. She has a natural spring well as a water supply, and she owns a wind turbine which powers her house. She has an organic garden at the front of the house which she lives off.. why should she pay property tax? what services is she being provided with by the government?

Should the ultra rich not have to pay tax because they don't use the health service, education system and other state-funded services?

Of course not. People don't just pay tax for things they get a benefit from, that's not really the point of taxation.

Amirani · 06-06-2014 8:05am

In response to the thread title, are Maltese people the only people in Europe that own their own homes? The overwhelming majority of countries have property taxes.

DoesNotCompute · 06-06-2014 8:17am

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Should the ultra rich not have to pay tax because they don't use the health service, education system and other state-funded services?

Of course not. People don't just pay tax for things they get a benefit from, that's not really the point of taxation.

Exactly. Property tax goes towards the services in a locality, for the benefi of everyone in that locality. People need to stop thinking so small and start seeing the bigger picture. The property tax that you pay isn't just for the benefit of you specifically, it's for the benefit of society at large.

To answer donegal_road's question, your auntie's property tax goes towards public parks, libraries, open spaces, planning and development, emergency services, street lighting, street maintenance, etc. even if she has never availed of these services, they still have to be paid for.

comongethappy · 06-06-2014 8:28am

ezra_pound wrote: »

It's called motor tax and it doesn't nearly cover the costs of building and maintaining our roads.

The road budget for 2013 was just over €400 million

Motorists contribute over €4 bn in taxes.

No one gives proportionally more for receiving less than the motorist.

Banjoxed · 06-06-2014 8:31am

In my experience in Ireland, "the rich" means someone earning ten grand more than the person using the phrase.

AnonoBoy · 06-06-2014 8:33am

Water tax means you don't even own your bladder.

kneemos · 06-06-2014 8:44am

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Water tax means you don't even own your bladder.

Income tax means your wages don't even belong to you.

No Pants · 06-06-2014 8:48am

comongethappy wrote: »

The road budget for 2013 was just over €400 million

Motorists contribute over €4 bn in taxes.

No one gives proportionally more for receiving less than the motorist.

And yet they keep paying it. It'll rise again.

jimgoose · 06-06-2014 8:50am

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

No. If you own it then you should have the deeds.

I have the deeds, but there's a beefy mortgage yet on the thing.

jimgoose · 06-06-2014 8:51am

There's tax on just about everything you buy. There's motor tax also. This doesn't mean you don't own your vehicle if you, well, own your vehicle.

Maphisto · 06-06-2014 8:56am

donegal__road wrote: »

I know a lady that bought some land 30 years ago. Her son built her a house on the land 25 years ago. She has a natural spring well as a water supply, and she owns a wind turbine which powers her house. She has an organic garden at the front of the house which she lives off.. why should she pay property tax? what services is she being provided with by the government?

Even if she doesn't go out is she not concerned that the rest of the country is educated?

Is she not concerned that outside her fifedom, the country is policed against ruffians and scalliwags?

Is she not concerned that the country is defended in someway to stop some latterday vikings taking over Waterford, because they like it?

These services used to be paid for by private enterprise aka monarchs and nobility - would you go back to that?

Phoebas · 06-06-2014 8:56am

donegal__road wrote: »

I know a lady that bought some land 30 years ago. Her son built her a house on the land 25 years ago. She has a natural spring well as a water supply, and she owns a wind turbine which powers her house. She has an organic garden at the front of the house which she lives off.. why should she pay property tax? what services is she being provided with by the government?

Can't she apply for the hermit's exemption?

Property tax means you don't own your home.

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