U-21 Hurling Championship 2014

cul beag · 04-06-2014 8:59pm

Limerick huffed and puffed but realistically are poor enough. Clare never looked in any danger of losing here and with their injured players to come back will take all the beating again this year.

Stevecw · 04-06-2014 8:59pm

Sad evening for Carlow hurling losing, 3-19 to 10 to Westmeath. Following on from a terrible senior year, we are in a bad way it seems. That is a quality Westmeath team tho, will stick a few quid on them to win Leinster. Hope Westmeath can keep most of that team together, will be a force at senior if they do.

deisedude · 04-06-2014 9:10pm

Stevecw wrote: »

Sad evening for Carlow hurling losing, 3-19 to 10 to Westmeath. Following on from a terrible senior year, we are in a bad way it seems. That is a quality Westmeath team tho, will stick a few quid on them to win Leinster. Hope Westmeath can keep most of that team together, will be a force at senior if they do.

Did Mount Leinsters run do damage to your county team?

Stevecw · 04-06-2014 9:30pm

deisedude wrote: »

Did Mount Leinsters run do damage to your county team?

Well yes, it did in the end. Should have been a serious boost to us, but worked the other way completely. It's a long long story & not one for an u-21 thread.
Tonight was just a bit of a shock that Westmeath are that far ahead of us at 21s level. They were quality, but a serious reality check as to our future too.

Santa Cruz · 04-06-2014 9:56pm

68deville wrote: »

Excellent result for Wexford,in Nowlan pk as well ,good start to their defence
Of the Leinster title and a sign of steady progress.

Kilkenny also out of the Minor. Something wrong at grassroots level??

bruschi · 04-06-2014 10:03pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Kilkenny also out of the Minor. Something wrong at grassroots level??

Kilkenny play Wexford in a couple of weeks in the Leinster minor semi final.

KevIRL · 04-06-2014 10:11pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Kilkenny also out of the Minor. Something wrong at grassroots level??

bruschi wrote: »

Kilkenny play Wexford in a couple of weeks in the Leinster minor semi final.

Correct, they got hockeyed at home by Dublin in the first round of Leinster Minor, but there is a back door at provincial level and they went on to beat Carlow in a qualifier

Twiceasnice97 · 05-06-2014 1:17am

savannahkat wrote: »

I heard nothing about the game against Limerick so I cant answer that. According to those in the know this is a decent Kilkenny squad but are very much in the unknown bracket. Tomorrow will tell a lot about them.

ye are in a bit of trouble at this stage. the stripeyment went into melt down when i pointed this out but you can`t have minor teams like ye had over the last few years and just expect that it can be turned around
the senior team is in serious upheavel with a lot of changes on the cards but the players coming in are nothing like their predeccessors skill wise.
the minor result ve dublin was a poor one though i expect they are better than that but this is a serious hiding

05-06-2014 1:26am

deadybai wrote: »

Clare will win 3 in a row. Far better then a good Limerick side. Fair play if they do it. That's some feat

cul beag wrote: »

Limerick huffed and puffed but realistically are poor enough. Clare never looked in any danger of losing here and with their injured players to come back will take all the beating again this year.

No doubt about it they are class but i feel we haven't been too far away from them the last two years at u21 and have a decent enough crop this year. We have alot of the minor winners of 2012.

Id consider Dublin (who got to the minor final in 2011), Galway (who won the minor final in 2011) to be strong contenders and Wexford will perhaps grow in belief. They cant be discounted. Same as Waterford who were thereabouts back in 2011 also.

Alot of hurling to be done yet. No doubt Clare are a super team and are doing trojan work at underage but i think its still reasonably open at this stage. Limerick havent been good at u21 the last two years despite having a relatively strong team - a good few of whom won munster medals in 2011 and won schools medals with Ard Scoil Ris

pmy.murphy · 05-06-2014 1:26am

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

ye are in a bit of trouble at this stage. the stripeyment went into melt down when i pointed this out but you can`t have minor teams like ye had over the last few years and just expect that it can be turned around
the senior team is in serious upheavel with a lot of changes on the cards but the players coming in are nothing like their predeccessors skill wise.
the minor result ve dublin was a poor one though i expect they are better than that but this is a serious hiding

Im someone who would like to think is very awarre of the goings on at underage level in the county. What I can tell you is yes we cant keep producing what we had but if you saw the standard of that u21 team we had tonight you would see that at underage level there is something seriouly wrong fundamentally and something has got to change for us we have to act. We have taken our eye off the ball big time and are well behind everyone else. For a Kilkenny team to be beaten by that much in our own yard at that should not be happening. We werent even competitive. I know we have no god given right to be winning but jesus a county as proud as we are should at least not be getting put to the sword like that. Its embarassing

We have had bad underage teams in the past but none this bad. The lack of skill and tactical awareness on show from a kilkenny team tonight was so alarming I can only even name 2 decent performers in the whole team. This u21 was awful plain and simple.

Our Minors on the other hand are much better than what we saw against Dublin. Honestly I do not know what happened that day but this is a highly rated kilkenny minor team and I do expect them to come on strong again and be there or thereabouts at the business end of the championship but all that aside there is a problem for us at underage level, a huge problem at that. Our county board has got to stand up and be counted now and get the finger out

mickaleen · 05-06-2014 8:11am

They'll be all doing well to beat the Limerick minor team.....seen em there two years ago at under 16's and they are a savage physical side. Alot of the guys from last year are there again plus a few more. Should be an excellent minor championship.

Twiceasnice97 · 05-06-2014 7:09pm

pmy.murphy wrote: »

Im someone who would like to think is very awarre of the goings on at underage level in the county. What I can tell you is yes we cant keep producing what we had but if you saw the standard of that u21 team we had tonight you would see that at underage level there is something seriouly wrong fundamentally and something has got to change for us we have to act. We have taken our eye off the ball big time and are well behind everyone else. For a Kilkenny team to be beaten by that much in our own yard at that should not be happening. We werent even competitive. I know we have no god given right to be winning but jesus a county as proud as we are should at least not be getting put to the sword like that. Its embarassing

We have had bad underage teams in the past but none this bad. The lack of skill and tactical awareness on show from a kilkenny team tonight was so alarming I can only even name 2 decent performers in the whole team. This u21 was awful plain and simple.

Our Minors on the other hand are much better than what we saw against Dublin. Honestly I do not know what happened that day but this is a highly rated kilkenny minor team and I do expect them to come on strong again and be there or thereabouts at the business end of the championship but all that aside there is a problem for us at underage level, a huge problem at that. Our county board has got to stand up and be counted now and get the finger out

I would agree with you that I think kilkenny minors might be a bit better than they showed v dublin. With the schools finalists, the home venue and a bit of overconfidence combining with a bad evening and dublin blowing them out of the water fast you could see how it would happen but 3 points is incredible all the same.
The 2010 minors have not developed as you would have expected but time is still a bit on their side.
A real issue might be patience from supporters who are used to nothing only winning and how they cope with defeat over the next few seasons.

Fireball07 · 05-06-2014 7:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Alot of hurling to be done yet. No doubt Clare are a super team and are doing trojan work at underage but i think its still reasonably open at this stage. Limerick havent been good at u21 the last two years despite having a relatively strong team - a good few of whom won munster medals in 2011 and won schools medals with Ard Scoil Ris

Looking at Limerick's U-21 performances in recent years, you'd definitely have to question the coaching/management. Some fantastic players there, but we've had a couple of non-performances on the day (when the very same players would put in big performances at senior level), and then last night, it wasn't quite a non-performance, but it was below what was expected. Clare weren't at their best but still strolled home really.

The sooner we get Paul Kinnerk involved with Limerick hurling the better. And people of his ilk.

GrandSoftDay · 05-06-2014 7:47pm

Fireball07 wrote: »

Looking at Limerick's U-21 performances in recent years, you'd definitely have to question the coaching/management. Some fantastic players there, but we've had a couple of non-performances on the day (when the very same players would put in big performances at senior level), and then last night, it wasn't quite a non-performance, but it was below what was expected. Clare weren't at their best but still strolled home really.

The sooner we get Paul Kinnerk involved with Limerick hurling the better. And people of his ilk.

Do you think Kinnerk would go? His parents are both Clare people to the best of my knowledge and he's teaching in Shannon so it might no be as straight forward a decision as you would think.

pmy.murphy · 05-06-2014 7:48pm

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

I would agree with you that I think kilkenny minors might be a bit better than they showed v dublin. With the schools finalists, the home venue and a bit of overconfidence combining with a bad evening and dublin blowing them out of the water fast you could see how it would happen but 3 points is incredible all the same.
The 2010 minors have not developed as you would have expected but time is still a bit on their side.
A real issue might be patience from supporters who are used to nothing only winning and how they cope with defeat over the next few seasons.

3 points is incredibile I couldnt believe it myself and only 1 was from play but because of the schools final, the panel only had 2 training session together before the game so that lack of togethrness combined with the awful weather conditions and a general lack of hurling and training could not have helped. They didnt play as a unit and another thing about Dublin was that they were by far the more physical team and with the weather conditions that day, thats what won the day for Dublin to be honest along with their sharper minds and sharper hurling. But yes 3 points would still have you scratching your head despite all those factors. Those U21s last night, many of them will not get a chance again thats for sure but more worrying was the fact that most of that team came from Junior and Intermediate Clubs. 4 lads starting last night came from the one junior club who have have lost the last 2 junior county finals at that. In comparison to the likes of Wexford and Clare, Westmeath, most of their key players have been playing Senior intercounty hurling. Big difference

Fireball07 · 05-06-2014 7:50pm

GrandSoftDay wrote: »

Do you think Kinnerk would go? His parents are both Clare people to the best of my knowledge and he's teaching in Shannon so it might no be as straight forward a decision as you would think.

I don't think he'd leave before his time in Clare, but some day. I mean they gave him his chance, he'd never have been given a chance in Limerick because he wouldn't have a big hurling background. But he's definitely the type of person you want training your young players.

Fireball07 · 05-06-2014 11:17pm

I'm just wondering if anyone knows whether there's any recourse the referee can take against teams who don't come out onto the pitch on time?

I mention it here, because Clare took the absolute piss last night, they were out a good 10 mins after Limerick for the 2nd half.

Now, obviously the referee could award the game to Limerick, but no one wants to see that, and he was never going to do it at half-time. But still, is there anything he can do bar say "hurry on". He can't really book a player, there's not one person at fault, could he sanction the manager? Or just report it to the county board? It's a rare enough thing, but I'm not sure it should be allowed either. If teams are supposed to come out after 15 minutes, they should come out after 15 minutes.

feargale · 05-06-2014 11:38pm

KevIRL wrote: »

I love this championship, last of the true knockout championships and has served up some brilliant games over the past few years. Have a major issue with Galway getting a a bye to the All Ireland semi final though and Antrim with an effective bye. Both should be in Leinster at all levels

Why not do what they should have done years ago with the senior championship, and did years ago with the intermediate championship? For under 21 create a third province, " Connacht-Ulster" with a cup and medals for the champions. You would have Galway, Antrim, Down, Derry, maybe occasionally Armagh, Roscommon , Mayo. Bring London into it too. Let the champions play a semi-final against Munster and Leinster champions in alternate years.

Fireball07 · 05-06-2014 11:44pm

KevIRL wrote: »

I love this championship, last of the true knockout championships and has served up some brilliant games over the past few years. Have a major issue with Galway getting a a bye to the All Ireland semi final though and Antrim with an effective bye. Both should be in Leinster at all levels

I do agree that the pure knockout thing often makes it a great spectacle... but it can be harsh on players. I mean I know the Limerick panel have been training like crazy since January, I'd say as much as the senior team. But now they're out- 6 months of training, 1 game and they're gone. Could be 7 months for 1 game for Tipp/Cork/Waterford.

Obviously they know that when they start out, it's a big commitment, but it's not like the old knockout Championship, there's no league or anything... just a few challenge games and then the Championship.

I'm not saying they should change it, I don't think they should. But it is a huge commitment. Especially when you're drawn against a team like Clare who are very very good. You can understand why some of them were in tears after.... to commit like that, you have got to believe you are going to win, and to under-perform is gutting.

feargale · 05-06-2014 11:48pm

KevIRL wrote: »

I love this championship, last of the true knockout championships and has served up some brilliant games over the past few years. Have a major issue with Galway getting a a bye to the All Ireland semi final though and Antrim with an effective bye. Both should be in Leinster at all levels

Why not do what they should have done years ago with the senior championship, and did years ago with the intermediate championship? For under 21 create a third province, " Connacht-Ulster" with a cup and medals for the champions. You would have Galway, Antrim, Down, Derry, maybe occasionally Armagh, Roscommon , Mayo. Bring London into it too. Let the champions play a semi-final against Munster and Leinster champions in alternate years.

06-06-2014 12:15am

feargale wrote: »

Why not do what they should have done years ago with the senior championship, and did years ago with the intermediate championship? For under 21 create a third province, " Connacht-Ulster" with a cup and medals for the champions. You would have Galway, Antrim, Down, Derry, maybe occasionally Armagh, Roscommon , Mayo. Bring London into it too. Let the champions play a semi-final against Munster and Leinster champions in alternate years.

Galway would píss it most years to be honest apart from the odd Antrim surge on average every 10 years (or am i being too generous)

mickmackey1 · 06-06-2014 12:16am

Fireball07 wrote: »

I'm just wondering if anyone knows whether there's any recourse the referee can take against teams who don't come out onto the pitch on time?

I mention it here, because Clare took the absolute piss last night, they were out a good 10 mins after Limerick for the 2nd half.

Now, obviously the referee could award the game to Limerick, but no one wants to see that, and he was never going to do it at half-time. But still, is there anything he can do bar say "hurry on". He can't really book a player, there's not one person at fault, could he sanction the manager? Or just report it to the county board? It's a rare enough thing, but I'm not sure it should be allowed either. If teams are supposed to come out after 15 minutes, they should come out after 15 minutes.

No doubt Clare co board will be slapped with a token fine and nothing more... baffles me too, they're the best team in the country, no need for that kind of malarkey.

06-06-2014 12:21am

mickmackey1 wrote: »

No doubt Clare co board will be slapped with a token fine and nothing more... baffles me too, they're the best team in the country, no need for that kind of malarkey.

Tipp tend to do it under O'Shea at Senior level to my despair and to be honest i wish they wouldnt because it only serves to get up the Ref's back

feargale · 06-06-2014 12:24am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Galway would píss it most years to be honest apart from the odd Antrim surge on average every 10 years (or am i being too generous)

Would Galway differ greatly from Kilkenny in Leinster? No, I don't think you're being too generous to Antrim. It's at least better than Galway walking into a semi-final, and they might set a standard for the others.

06-06-2014 12:26am

feargale wrote: »

Would Galway differ greatly from Kilkenny in Leinster? No, I don't think you're being too generous to Antrim. It's at least better than Galway walking into a semi-final, and they might set a standard for the others.

I see your rationale alright but sometimes the only thing worse than a bye is a one sided contest. Do you not think Galway would tank those Ulster teams? Maybe over time things would change but i doubt they would

Twiceasnice97 · 06-06-2014 12:28am

pmy.murphy wrote: »

3 points is incredibile I couldnt believe it myself and only 1 was from play but because of the schools final, the panel only had 2 training session together before the game so that lack of togethrness combined with the awful weather conditions and a general lack of hurling and training could not have helped. They didnt play as a unit and another thing about Dublin was that they were by far the more physical team and with the weather conditions that day, thats what won the day for Dublin to be honest along with their sharper minds and sharper hurling. But yes 3 points would still have you scratching your head despite all those factors. Those U21s last night, many of them will not get a chance again thats for sure but more worrying was the fact that most of that team came from Junior and Intermediate Clubs. 4 lads starting last night came from the one junior club who have have lost the last 2 junior county finals at that. In comparison to the likes of Wexford and Clare, Westmeath, most of their key players have been playing Senior intercounty hurling. Big difference

Cody might have to bite the bullet with some of his fringe players on the senior panel from say 27 to 33 or whatever and get rid of some late 20`s lads to make space for the best four or five 21s to try to get them up to speed as regards the requirements for ic hurling

feargale · 06-06-2014 12:28am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I see your rationale alright but sometimes the only thing worse than a bye is a one sided contest. Do you not think Galway would tank those Ulster teams? Maybe over time things would change but i doubt they would

Give it a try, I say.

John from ennis · 06-06-2014 12:28am

I shared a car on the way to a munster hurling game 3 or 4 years ago and this fella is well connected and he informed me that there's an official at games and when a mentor steps onto the field when he shouldn't the county board is fined.
this game is munster ccouncils responsibility and you can be sure they will fine the county for this delaying tactic.

feargale · 06-06-2014 12:43am

pmy.murphy wrote: »

more worrying was the fact that most of that team came from Junior and Intermediate Clubs. 4 lads starting last night came from the one junior club who have have lost the last 2 junior county finals at that.

What happened the players from the senior clubs?

savannahkat · 06-06-2014 1:00am

feargale wrote: »

What happened the players from the senior clubs?

You can only assume they were not deemed to be good enough and maybe they were not.

06-06-2014 1:12am

feargale wrote: »

Give it a try, I say.

Yeah id agree perhaps worth a try. Ill admit that Galway playing two games and winning an all Ireland is a poor structure

pmy.murphy · 06-06-2014 2:20am

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

Cody might have to bite the bullet with some of his fringe players on the senior panel from say 27 to 33 or whatever and get rid of some late 20`s lads to make space for the best four or five 21s to try to get them up to speed as regards the requirements for ic hurling

To be honest with you I dont think were in a position that we could pick out was 4 or 5 lads on that team good enough or have the potential to be good enough. Maybe 1 or 2 of the strongest performers last night plus the keeper but thats about it, theres no one else there near good enough that would better what we have on the Senior Panel or even come on par with them. Like our strongest outfield performer last night is technically a keeper and has trained with the Senior team as a goalkeeper even at that theres many who would have question marks over whether he has what it takes to make it outfield at senior level but out of last nights evidence he is the most likely I would say but again no guarantees likewise with our full back and captain who didnt play minor and seems to be a bit of a late bloomer, he dealt well with Conor McDonald but its hard to know if he has what it takes to make it either. Those two were our best performers on the night

pmy.murphy · 06-06-2014 2:35am

feargale wrote: »

What happened the players from the senior clubs?

To be honest with you their just simply not good enough at Underage Level. There was 3 lads off the Senior County Champions on the Panel one starting on the team and the other 2 came on. Conor O Shea was the lad starting and Chris Bolger and Ciaran Prendergast came on. O Shea and Bolger didnt start for Clara last year all season as they won the Senior Championship. I will breakdown the structure of the panel. 4 lads on the starting team were from Senior clubs including the keeper while out of the rest of the starting team 6 lads were from Junior Clubs including 4 from the same Junior Club starting and 5 from Intermediate Clubs and out of the whole 32 man panel 13 from Senior clubs including 4 on the extended panel, 5 on the subs and 4 starting.

citykat · 06-06-2014 7:40am

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

Cody might have to bite the bullet with some of his fringe players on the senior panel from say 27 to 33 or whatever and get rid of some late 20`s lads to make space for the best four or five 21s to try to get them up to speed as regards the requirements for ic hurling

That's not Cody's style. You have to earn your spot on the panel. Unless they up the commitment on/off the field in a big way, they can forget about it.

donnem33 · 06-06-2014 11:21am

Deleted User wrote: »

I see your rationale alright but sometimes the only thing worse than a bye is a one sided contest. Do you not think Galway would tank those Ulster teams? Maybe over time things would change but i doubt they would

I completely agree. Thats why the Connacht Championship was scraped. It would serve neither Galway or the other Ulster counties any good.

The only fair system available where all teams are treated equally is an open draw!

spacetrap · 06-06-2014 1:01pm

Fireball07 wrote: »

I'm just wondering if anyone knows whether there's any recourse the referee can take against teams who don't come out onto the pitch on time?

I mention it here, because Clare took the absolute piss last night, they were out a good 10 mins after Limerick for the 2nd half.

Now, obviously the referee could award the game to Limerick, but no one wants to see that, and he was never going to do it at half-time. But still, is there anything he can do bar say "hurry on". He can't really book a player, there's not one person at fault, could he sanction the manager? Or just report it to the county board? It's a rare enough thing, but I'm not sure it should be allowed either. If teams are supposed to come out after 15 minutes, they should come out after 15 minutes.

What about Mark Foley he spent almost as much time on the pitch as the teams.It was inexperience on Careys side they should have waited to come out longer at half time.There was enough in the crowd roaring at the ref to throw in the ball as well. It will stand to Carey in the long run.

savannahkat · 06-06-2014 1:54pm

2012 under 21 final Clare 2-17 Kilkenny 2-11. That was probably the best of the Clare under 21 sides and it was no mean display from Kilkenny to get that close to one of the outstanding under 21 teams of the recent past. 2013 some very dicey refereeing and a howler of a mistake with the last puck of the game by the Kilkenny keeper dropping the ball into his own net to give Wexford a one point win deprived Kilkenny of a second appearance in the under 21 final. Prior to the minor game against Dublin the majority of the minor team had played in the senior colleges final two weeks earlier with the two schools involved being within a few hundred yards of each other the tension the hype and the fervor had them drained with no time for recovery before going out to face Dublin. This year was a blip and nothing more than that. The record does not show or point to any demise within Kilkenny.

feargale · 06-06-2014 4:57pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I see your rationale alright but sometimes the only thing worse than a bye is a one sided contest. Do you not think Galway would tank those Ulster teams? Maybe over time things would change but i doubt they would

Correction: I wasn't 100% accurate about the Intermediate championship. What used to happen in the 60s and 70s was: Connacht champions played Ulster champions in a quarterfiinal, no cup or medals. The winners then played a semifinal against the Munster or Leinster finalists in alternate years. However I think you get the idea.

Twiceasnice97 · 06-06-2014 10:49pm

GrandSoftDay wrote: »

Do you think Kinnerk would go? His parents are both Clare people to the best of my knowledge and he's teaching in Shannon so it might no be as straight forward a decision as you would think.

It`s not a simple thing of him going back to limerick at all for kinnerk. he has as much if not more clare connections as he does limerick

Twiceasnice97 · 06-06-2014 10:56pm

donnem33 wrote: »

I completely agree. Thats why the Connacht Championship was scraped. It would serve neither Galway or the other Ulster counties any good.

The only fair system available where all teams are treated equally is an open draw!

this stuff comes up endlessly and is utterly tiresome.

if you create an open draw you remove the munster final and the leinster final.
if that was the case clare would be celebrating and dublin and limerick would be doing what exactly?

donnem33 · 06-06-2014 11:16pm

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

this stuff comes up endlessly and is utterly tiresome.

if you create an open draw you remove the munster final and the leinster final.
if that was the case clare would be celebrating and dublin and limerick would be doing what exactly?

Thats precisely the point!!! its the only solution to having a fair competition. Im sick of hearing all about preserving the famous munster championship....but one province cannot be allowed dictate the hurling championship and the greater good of hurling. Galway or Antrim have no affiliation to Leinster. Its not until next year as to when Galway can "try" arrange a home and away agreement with other counties in order to stage matches. It was to enable Leinster be more competitive they were brought into the province aswell!! Just like football, the provincial championships have had their day and it is time a new fairer system for all the championships - minor, u21 and intermediate included is introduced.

At the end of the day, what do players treasure more - an all ireland medal or a provincial medal. I know if i was a senior intercounty hurler which one i would be choosing!

Twiceasnice97 · 07-06-2014 12:07am

savannahkat wrote: »

2012 under 21 final Clare 2-17 Kilkenny 2-11. That was probably the best of the Clare under 21 sides and it was no mean display from Kilkenny to get that close to one of the outstanding under 21 teams of the recent past. 2013 some very dicey refereeing and a howler of a mistake with the last puck of the game by the Kilkenny keeper dropping the ball into his own net to give Wexford a one point win deprived Kilkenny of a second appearance in the under 21 final. Prior to the minor game against Dublin the majority of the minor team had played in the senior colleges final two weeks earlier with the two schools involved being within a few hundred yards of each other the tension the hype and the fervor had them drained with no time for recovery before going out to face Dublin. This year was a blip and nothing more than that. The record does not show or point to any demise within Kilkenny.

You could argue it that way or you could equally argue that when the business end of the game arrived clare outscored kilkenny by 1 10 to 4 points one point from play and three frees.
a good few of them who looked like extremely good players when part of the senior panel and surrounded by really serious intercounty lads had their confidence badly undermined by the combination of the 7 - 23 to 1 - 16 defeat down in templetouhy allied to the annihilation in the second half in the final when they had to step up on their own. I was at that game and both teams had ten or more of the players who played in the all ireland under 21 final. clares absentees included patrick o`connor and conor mcgrath
you can talk about refs and all the rest of it for 2013 but the fact is wexford won the match and then lost to antrim.
at minor level after the win in 2010 where the people around the team lost the run of themselves a bit in relation to their prospects maybe kilkenny were quite poor in 11 and 12 and last year lost to wexford in nolan park though they did recover to give waterford a decent game in the semi.

the hidings dished out by dublin and wexford in nolan park to kilkennys 21`s and minors would tend to fit in to a narrative of some decline surely

Twiceasnice97 · 07-06-2014 12:23am

donnem33 wrote: »

Thats precisely the point!!! its the only solution to having a fair competition. Im sick of hearing all about preserving the famous munster championship....but one province cannot be allowed dictate the hurling championship and the greater good of hurling. Galway or Antrim have no affiliation to Leinster. Its not until next year as to when Galway can "try" arrange a home and away agreement with other counties in order to stage matches. It was to enable Leinster be more competitive they were brought into the province aswell!! Just like football, the provincial championships have had their day and it is time a new fairer system for all the championships - minor, u21 and intermediate included is introduced.

At the end of the day, what do players treasure more - an all ireland medal or a provincial medal. I know if i was a senior intercounty hurler which one i would be choosing!

what a silly response.
you are clearly missing the point. without the existance of the munster and leinster championship players like ciaran carey , gary kirby, tony browne, ken mcgrath, john mullane, dan shanahan declan ruth Daragh ryan and so on would have nothing to show for their careers. Its quite possible that the same thing might happen to some of the older Dublin and Galway players in the next couple of years.
I wasn`t aware that senior intercounty players got to choose the outcome of their medal haul but you can bet those lads and many more like them wouldnt give up the provincial medals they have and the great joy they experienced in the moments and days after those wins for anything

donnem33 · 07-06-2014 12:37am

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

what a silly response.
you are clearly missing the point. without the existance of the munster and leinster championship players like ciaran carey , gary kirby, tony browne, ken mcgrath, john mullane, dan shanahan declan ruth Daragh ryan and so on would have nothing to show for their careers. Its quite possible that the same thing might happen to some of the older Dublin and Galway players in the next couple of years.
I wasn`t aware that senior intercounty players got to choose the outcome of their medal haul but you can bet those lads and many more like them wouldnt give up the provincial medals they have and the great joy they experienced in the moments and days after those wins for anything

Im just making the point its the all ireland medal which players crave more than just a provincial. Winning leinster in 2012 was great for galway, it was unique. but it would mean far more to, say for example, a westmeath hurler, as they are from that particular province. Players start out every year to win the all ireland and if they win a provincial along the way, that's an added bonus.

The system is flawed at the moment. Where there is so little between many of the top teams, an open draw champions league format would add even more excitement to the game in addition to being a more fair system and allow home and away games. Galway and Antrim joined the leinster championship in 2009, yet only 1 game, and that has been this year, has been played in either county. how is that fair?

Anyways, this thread is about u21 not senior. I was illustrating that the u21 championship is very unbalanced the way galway and antrim get a bye into the semi finals. Sure they could join possibly join leinster, but i believe they would meet strong resistence from some of the other leinster counties.

The Lost Sheep · 07-06-2014 12:44am

donnem33 wrote: »

Im just making the point its the all ireland medal which players crave more than just a provincial. Winning leinster in 2012 was great for galway, it was unique. but it would mean far more to, say for example, a westmeath hurler, as they are from that particular province. Players start out every year to win the all ireland and if they win a provincial along the way, that's an added bonus.

The system is flawed at the moment. Where there is so little between many of the top teams, an open draw champions league format would add even more excitement to the game in addition to being a more fair system and allow home and away games. Galway and Antrim joined the leinster championship in 2009, yet only 1 game, and that has been this year, has been played in either county. how is that fair?

Anyways, this thread is about u21 not senior. I was illustrating that the u21 championship is very unbalanced the way galway and antrim get a bye into the semi finals. Sure they could join possibly join leinster, but i believe they would meet strong resistence from some of the other leinster counties.

Just highlighted a few points. On first point. Not really. Some counties will aim just to get provincial title as that's a significant win for most counties and anything after is a real big bonus. For other counties All Irelands are main aim every year.
Yes the system is flawed but do we need home and away games for under 21? Why increase game load unnecessarily for u21 grade?
System is unbalanced with Galway/Antrim getting bye into semis. Perhaps they enter Leinster and winners of Leinster/Munster face off in final??

donnem33 · 07-06-2014 12:54am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Just highlighted a few points. On first point. Not really. Some counties will aim just to get provincial title as that's a significant win for most counties and anything after is a real big bonus. For other counties All Irelands are main aim every year.
Yes the system is flawed but do we need home and away games for under 21? Why increase game load unnecessarily for u21 grade?
System is unbalanced with Galway/Antrim getting bye into semis. Perhaps they enter Leinster and winners of Leinster/Munster face off in final??

every player dreams of winning an all ireland and that's what drives them to train to try attain it - obviously its only a few that can achieve it but it's still the goal at the start of the year.

I would like to see galway and antrim involved in the leinster u21 but will it be possible? lets be honest, galway always are competitive in this category - will the likes of dublin, wexford, laois or carlow who are finally making progress and are competing strongly with and indeed defeating kilkenny - who have been the benchmark in leinster - want to see a big team like galway come into the province thereby reducing their chances of success? i dont think so!

pmy.murphy · 07-06-2014 2:02am

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

You could argue it that way or you could equally argue that when the business end of the game arrived clare outscored kilkenny by 1 10 to 4 points one point from play and three frees.
a good few of them who looked like extremely good players when part of the senior panel and surrounded by really serious intercounty lads had their confidence badly undermined by the combination of the 7 - 23 to 1 - 16 defeat down in templetouhy allied to the annihilation in the second half in the final when they had to step up on their own. I was at that game and both teams had ten or more of the players who played in the all ireland under 21 final. clares absentees included patrick o`connor and conor mcgrath
you can talk about refs and all the rest of it for 2013 but the fact is wexford won the match and then lost to antrim.
at minor level after the win in 2010 where the people around the team lost the run of themselves a bit in relation to their prospects maybe kilkenny were quite poor in 11 and 12 and last year lost to wexford in nolan park though they did recover to give waterford a decent game in the semi.

the hidings dished out by dublin and wexford in nolan park to kilkennys 21`s and minors would tend to fit in to a narrative of some decline surely

Whats this 7-23 to 1-16 hammering you speak of? Really lets call a spade a spade here, I was at that U21 Final in Thurles. Personally I think that was as good a Kilkenny U21 Team as you could get, serious talent on board I have said that ever since we lost that night and my claims are only proving themselves now. It was every bit as good as the Clare team on paper. We got the likes of Walter Walsh, Padraig Walsh, Brian Kennedy, Richie Doyle, Ger Aylward(Both Injured this Year. Doyle also injured much of last year but both very classy operators, Doyle in particular), and John Power to name a few. Kevin Kelly is another on that team and was also U21 this year injured V Wexford the other night who will get his chance in the next year or 2 with the Seniors, a very talented young hurler. Geoff Brennan also was on that team, he scored 3 pts V Galway in League so that was as talented a Kilkenny team we have had. So thats 8 lads who currently form the Senior team and will do for the next few years. But frankly SavannahKat I do not agree with you in admitting that we got close to Clare in that Final. I was at the match we didnt perform throughout the whole match, personally I would probably put that down to the manner in which we got to the final, blitzing all before us like Wexford and Laois in leinster and Galway in the All Ireland Semi Final. We were ahead at half time without performing all that well before Clare just stormed back and honestly we couldnt handle it, lads were not used to being in this situation and no one stepped up. I do hold the opinion that this 2012 KK U21 Team had the talent to beat Clare, we just did not perform especially in the 2nd half. If I can remember correctly, Clares half back fairly sure it was Seadna Morey played like a man possessed in that half, was unbelievable and was everywhere in that 2nd period.

But those Clare lads have developed and won a Senior All Ireland since then whilst our lads are only getting their chance to shine now. Youngsters in Kilkenny do very much have the path to the Senior team blocked I have to say.

I do think we were complacent against Wexford in 2013 that was a good team but they did sort of lose the run of themselves after Minor a bit I do think. We could have beaten Wexford that night but we didnt step up there either when the game was there for the taking

I also agree with you in relation to the Minor Team we had last year, very poor in the defeat to Wexford but we did recover and possibly could have beaten Waterford with what was an average team but certainly there is a decline I do agree completely. I have noticed something myself that when comparing our own underage teams to others like Dublin, Clare etc, I have found that there is just that something missing which I cant put my finger on. We lost to Dublin in Nowlan Park Minor this year with before the match was a team alongside Limerick, favourites for the Minor All Ireland this year. We scored 3 pts, although the lads only had 2 training sessions together before the match but 3 points is unacceptable but I have the feeling that there is something missing, our lads are just lacking something and have been at underage Minor especially for a few years now

savannahkat · 07-06-2014 2:28am

It would you all a lot of good to read http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/little-things-mean-a-lot-271324.html

pmy.murphy · 07-06-2014 2:36am

savannahkat wrote: »

It would you all a lot of good to read http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/little-things-mean-a-lot-271324.html

I do agree with Martin Fogarty but only to a certain extent, certain things can tip the scales but there are cracks there at underage that cant be ignored. All the excuses in the world cant explain 3 pts we scored against Dublin, yes it may have affected the performance but despite that how can you explain 3 pts from a Kilkenny team. There is complacency there without a shadow of a doubt and I dont believe we have the right people in charge of the teams at underage level either

Fireball07 · 23-06-2014 11:41pm

The 2 Leinster semi-finals are on this week.

Wexford got a big win over KK in the last round, and face Offaly who got a bye... Offaly haven't been great at underage level this year. Wexford have a few players on an improving senior team- Ryan, Guiney, Moore & McDonald anyway and you'd expect them to beat Offaly comprehensively tbqh.

Dublin beat Laois, and Westmeath beat Carlow... I suppose you'd be looking at Dublin as strong favourites based on pedigree although Westmeath are putting in work at underage level and I hope they give them a good game anyway.

Wexford-Offaly is on TG4 on Wednesday night.

U-21 Hurling Championship 2014

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