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Foynes and Ringaskiddy Motorways

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    #2
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,699 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There isn't a chance that they'd be tolled as there wouldn't be enough traffic, even with 100% toll obedience, to cover the costs. The N28 is already being planned anyway.


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    #3
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Danno wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/state-may-have-to-fork-out-500m-on-new-motorways-30287160.html

    According to the article, the country will be "forced" to build motorways to service these two ports.

    Surely, with the state coffers running low these roads will be tolled. We all know how the lorries are currently dodging tolls at present, would these roads be a waste?

    Your thoughts?

    Great news, especially considering these are projects that are already under consideration.

    The impact of these will mean a nationwide reassessment of priorities, so a number of Cork projects may get bumped up the list, as the Ringaskiddy project (already in planning according to the article) may well need to link into a Cork ring road. Similarly the Foynes road could also double as a bypass for Adare. These could boost the M20 project.

    Will they be tolled? Not likely, especially considering there are supposedly negotiations for the government to pay the HGV tolls for the Limerick Tunnel.

    Will they be a waste? No, as they will help avoid EU fines. Where would you rather spend 25k per day, on Brussels or somewhere on the Island?

    Personally I hope the EU start threatening to fine Dublin for having to "beg" Dublin to ask for money for the West.


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    #4
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    N28 Thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=214509&page=5


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    #5
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    WTF,
    heres a picture of Foynes port, which can just take 2 middling small ships from the look of it.

    MARINE-OPERATIONS_Terminals_Foynes1.jpg

    And it needs a motorway and a rail link to cope with the gigantic traffic.

    Seriously?


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    #6
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,814 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    WTF,
    heres a picture of Foynes port, which can just take 2 middling small ships from the look of it.


    And it needs a motorway and a rail link to cope with the gigantic traffic.

    Seriously?

    There's are plans to expand Foynes. It (and West Limerick) needs better road access, but there will never be a need for a motorway. I think that's just lazy journalism again labeling every new road as a motorway.


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    #7
    Nordicgael
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Nordicgael


    Foynes is irelands second largest port and have a plan for future expansion -
    so it isnt as small or as quiet as it may look -
    besides its a good thing to plan properly for the future.hopefully irish ports may become busier over the coming years - galway harbor has a big expansion plan going through the planning process right now.


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    #8
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    There's are plans to expand Foynes. It's (and West Limerick) needs better road access, but there will never be a need for a motorway. I think that's just lazy journalism again labeling every new road as a motorway.
    I hope so.
    A decent single carraigeway road, with climbing lanes if necessary, should be more than sufficient.

    Ringaskidy is a different prospect altogether as the traffic on that road is already that heavy that it justifies a motorway/ HQDC


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    #9
    TINA1984
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭TINA1984


    Would the restoration of the railhead at Foynes be a more cost effective option then a new build road?

    Likewise with the N28, though it would be a huge asset to the lower harbour area, it's still just going to be mainly beneficial to commuters. it still seems strange that the Port of Cork want to build a new port away from mainline road and rail down in Ringaskiddy. Building a new facility on or near the N25 and Cobh railway is surely the more sensible option?


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    #10
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,814 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    TINA1984 wrote: »
    Would the restoration of the railhead at Foynes be a more cost effective option then a new build road?

    Likewise with the N28, though it would be a huge asset to the lower harbour area, it's still just going to be mainly beneficial to commuters. it still seems strange that the Port of Cork want to build a new port away from mainline road and rail down in Ringaskiddy. Building a new facility on or near the N25 and Cobh railway is surely the more sensible option?

    There's no point restoring the rail links, when Irish Rail don't do freight anymore, and won't let anyone else use the lines.


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    #11
    flazio
    Registered Users Posts: 12,811 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    There's no point restoring the rail links, when Irish Rail don't do freight anymore, and won't let anyone else use the lines.
    Irish rail do link Ballina and Rosslare AFAIK


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    #12
    TINA1984
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭TINA1984


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    There's no point restoring the rail links, when Irish Rail don't do freight anymore, and won't let anyone else use the lines.

    I've read on these forums before that IE are willing to unmothball the line if Foynes Port Co. and/or various mining concerns would pony up the cash for it. Surely the lure of EU funding would only enhance the prospect of the line re-opening.


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    #13
    Goofy
    Registered Users Posts: 272 ✭✭Goofy


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    WTF,
    heres a picture of Foynes port, which can just take 2 middling small ships from the look of it.

    MARINE-OPERATIONS_Terminals_Foynes1.jpg

    And it needs a motorway and a rail link to cope with the gigantic traffic.

    Seriously?

    There are 2 ships in that picture. There is space for another large ship in the background and there is an oil and gas( i think) berth on the far side of Foynes island. There are plans to extend the port to the foreground of the picture to make the port capable of handling post-Panamax ships.

    Maybe the road could be an extension of the Adare bypass? It could possibly head south of Askeaton ant join up with the Adar bypass.

    I agree that it doesnt necessarily need to be a motorway right now but if the port does manage to attract post panamax container ships in the future, it would make sense to build it to motorway standard. It will be a relatively sort stretch of motorway and there are EU grants available now for it.


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    #14
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    I'd imagine that it could well be a motorway at least some of the way for Foynes, as the intention seems to be to use this project to extend the N21, a very busy road past Adare at any rate even before you add HGVs that currently use the N69. Unlikely this would be done less than motorway with this plan, even if the Adare bypass on its own was only going to be dual-carriageway.

    Looking at Google maps with topology switched on, and satellite view to see settlement, lakes, rivers, hills, etc, it seems that it might make sense like the railway line to go towards Rathkeale on the N21, before going fairly directly north towards the Shannon Estuary west of Foynes and curving back in north of the current N69 (maybe atrocious bog there of course)


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    #15
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    I hope so.
    A decent single carraigeway road, with climbing lanes if necessary, should be more than sufficient.

    Ringaskidy is a different prospect altogether as the traffic on that road is already that heavy that it justifies a motorway/ HQDC

    The N28 will link Cork City to

    1. The new Cork Port facility at Ringaskiddy
    2. Carrigaline and Crosshaven
    3. Numerous drug manufacturing facilities in Ringaskiddy
    4. Irish Naval Service HQ at Haulbowline Island

    Very important piece of road and at under €150m, not really that expensive on a cost / benefit exercise.


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    #16
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Personally I hope the EU start threatening to fine Dublin for having to "beg" Dublin to ask for money for the West.

    Oh honestly, do wake up and smell the coffee. Dublin can't have DART underground, the most important transport project in the state because Ballygobackwards needs a rail service and Tuam (pop. 8000) needs a motorway. a disproportionate amount of money is spent on infrastructure in the west already.


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    #17
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Oh honestly, do wake up and smell the coffee. Dublin can't have DART underground, the most important transport project in the state because Ballygobackwards needs a rail service and Tuam (pop. 8000) needs a motorway.

    According to the numbers that would be GCOB, neither white elephant rail project in Dublin comes anywhere near it.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    a disproportionate amount of money is spent on infrastructure in the west already.

    You really know nothing about the amount of development money being spent in the west do you? Fyi the cost of the M50 upgrade was more than the combined cost of the road and rail investments for the west, that's before we start getting to things like the criminal amount of money spent on vanity projects like MN that will cost more than.


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    #18
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,275 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    antoobrien wrote: »
    According to the numbers that would be GCOB, neither white elephant rail project in Dublin comes anywhere near it.

    You really know nothing about the amount of development money being spent in the west do you? Fyi the cost of the M50 upgrade was more than the combined cost of the road and rail investments for the west, that's before we start getting to things like the criminal amount of money spent on vanity projects like MN that will cost more than.

    Incorrect DART u will tripple rail capacity in Dublin to 100 million trips /yr hardly 'white elephant'. By comparison we have the empty Ennis to Athenry rail line, the barely used limerick tunnel. You obviously know nothing about demographics, the entire population of Connaught is the same as Dublin City, where the state's economic heart is. Yet we are still going ahead with connecting Tuam to Galway by an over designed road.


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    #19
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Incorrect DART u will tripple rail capacity in Dublin to 100 million trips /yr hardly 'white elephant'.

    Didn't say it was, if you'll read what was written, I referred to MN.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    By comparison we have the empty Ennis to Athenry rail line, the barely used limerick tunnel.

    One wonders why this is the case, perhaps because they are not being run to benefit the locality.

    It's blatantly obvious in the case of the case of WRC, which is being run to benefit the IE staff rather then the working populations of either Galway or Limerick.

    As for the criminally incompetent decision to toll a city bypass, well the less
    said about that the better.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    You obviously know nothing about demographics, the entire population of Connaught is the same as Dublin City, where the state's economic heart is.

    You do realise that those very demographics is just why there is no value for money left in infrastructure development and why, instead of further concentrating industry in an area that clearly can not support it - as evidenced by the fact that they "have" to extract water from the Shannon within 5 years or they'll run out. These projections based on a DCC claimed 20% loss rate that was updated to over 40% by Irish water. Fix the pipes and we'll find that there is plenty of capacity. Nah, let's take the easy way out.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    Yet we are still going ahead with connecting Tuam to Galway by an over designed road.

    And therin lies the problem, it's not a Tuam-Galway road (it's about 10km from the eastern edge of the Galway), it's part of an actual national project designed to link up the major towns along the Western Seaboard.

    Fot what it's worth, it past time we started building "over designed" roads and rail, as they provide spare capacity - which as DCC will tell us about water - is not a bad thing!


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    #20
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    cgcsb wrote: »
    the entire population of Connaught is the same as Dublin City

    So Connacht and Munster are owed probably owed more than 10 billion each in investment for the past 20 odd years. :cool:


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    #21
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,249 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    On topic please.

    Moderator
    Nordicgael wrote: »
    Foynes is irelands second largest port
    Do you mean the several disparate ports along the Shannon are somewhat busy? A motorway to Foynes isn't going to serve the fuel terminals as Moneypoint power station and Shannon Airport. Likewise Aughinish and Tarbert have no need for a motorway. Any expansion at Foynes is likely to see the closure of the docks in Limerick.

    In any case, Rosslare claims to be busier.


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    #22
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Do the TEN-T regulations require motorways or just high-quality port access routes?

    The NRA could meet the requirements for Foynes by building a single-carriageway route at far less cost.

    If a motorway (or even a 2+2 dual-carriageway) is going to be built, it would make sense to design the route in such a way that it serves both as a road from Limerick to Foynes as well as part of a road from Limerick to Kerry.

    Building a completely new off-line road from the existing N21 west of Patrickswell to a point close to mid-way between Rathkeale and Askeaton, near to the R518, would satisfy that requirement.

    There could then be a northwards spur towards Foynes, joining the existing N69 west of Askeaton, with a southwards spur towards Tralee, joining the existing N21 west of Rathkeale.

    The most suitable route for the connection between the existing N21 west of Patrickswell to the R518 would be either to use to build on the railway line or build a road more-or-less parallel to the railway line.

    This option is also available for the northwards spur towards Foynes.


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    #23
    relaxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭relaxed


    Victor wrote: »
    On topic please.

    Moderator

    Do you mean the several disparate ports along the Shannon are somewhat busy? A motorway to Foynes isn't going to serve the fuel terminals as Moneypoint power station and Shannon Airport. Likewise Aughinish and Tarbert have no need for a motorway. Any expansion at Foynes is likely to see the closure of the docks in Limerick.

    In any case, Rosslare claims to be busier.

    I think Shannon Foynes collectively is the second biggest by tonnage, but then again there are really only 3 or 4 large operations, Dublin, Cork, Shannon Foynes and maybe Waterford, so its not like its near the top of a big list.

    Moneypoint and Aughinish make up a lot of it, and they are self contained in their own facility, so will never need a motorway.


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    #24
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    Do the TEN-T regulations require motorways or just high-quality port access routes?

    The NRA could meet the requirements for Foynes by building a single-carriageway route at far less cost.
    It's unlikely they specify motorway. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is improved journey times for freight.
    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    Building a completely new off-line road from the existing N21 west of Patrickswell to a point close to mid-way between Rathkeale and Askeaton, near to the R518, would satisfy that requirement.

    There could then be a northwards spur towards Foynes, joining the existing N69 west of Askeaton, with a southwards spur towards Tralee, joining the existing N21 west of Rathkeale.
    I think Fred Barry of NRA was hinting at that idea.


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    #25
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    Do the TEN-T regulations require motorways or just high-quality port access routes?

    It seems to specify motorway, though given the fact that this is a European document, that could be a linguistic nuance, rather than a grade specification It's also not limited to road, but also mentions rail & inland waterways.

    Here is the text that seems to apply from the regulation:
    optimising the integration and interconnection of transport modes and enhancing the interoperability of transport services, while ensuring the accessibility of transport infrastructures. The achievement of this objective shall be measured by:
    (i) the number of multimodal logistic platforms, including inland and maritime ports and airports, connected to the railway network;
    (ii) the number of improved rail-road terminals, and the number of improved or new connections between ports through motorways of the sea;
    (iii) the number of kilometres of inland waterways fitted with RIS; and
    (iv)the level of deployment of the SESAR system, VTMIS and ITS for the road sector.

    There are a list of Irish projects that are specified that could receive funding from the "Connecting Europe Facility"(it seems that there are funds associated with this plan/initiative).

    The interesting thing about the Irish document and the regulations is that they mention Foynes in the context of rail not road (not exactly surprising that our journos didn't spot that).

    The list of projects includes:
    Core routes: North Sea – Mediterranean

    Cork - Dublin - Belfast|Rail|Studies and works; Dublin Interconnector (DART);
    Dublin, Cork, Southampton|Ports, Rail|Studies and works on port capacity, MoS and interconnections


    Rail connection Shannon Foynes - Limerick junction| Other Core Network | Rail | Studies

    Other
    NODE NAME|Airport|Maritime Port
    Carrickfin|Comprehensive (Donegal) |
    Cork | Core | Core
    Dublin | Core | Core (GDA port cluster)
    Inishmore | Comprehensive
    Kerry -Farranfore |Comprehensive
    Knock |Comprehensive (Connaught)
    Limerick | Comprehensive (Shannon)| Core (Shannon-Foynes)
    Rosslare | | Comprehensive (Europort)
    Waterford | Comprehensive |Comprehensive


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    #26
    Limerick74
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭Limerick74


    Article 17 of the TEN-T Regulations describes the type of roads required:

    3. High-quality roads shall be specially designed and built for motor traffic, and shall be either motorways, express roads or conventional strategic roads.
    (a) A motorway is a road specially designed and built for motor traffic, which does not serve properties bordering on it and which:
    (i) is provided, except at special points or temporarily, with separate carriageways for the two directions of traffic, separated from each other by a dividing strip not intended for traffic or, exceptionally, by other means;
    (ii) does not cross at grade with any road, railway or tramway track, bicycle path or footpath; and
    (iii) is specially sign-posted as a motorway.
    (b) An express road is a road designed for motor traffic, which is accessible primarily from interchanges or controlled junctions and which:
    (i) prohibits stopping and parking on the running carriageway; and
    (ii) does not cross at grade with any railway or tramway track.
    (c) A conventional strategic road is a road which is not a motorway or express road but which is still a high-quality road as referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2.


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    #27
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Whatever about Ringaskiddy, the big issue in that area is that there should be a motorway / DC to Carrigaline feeding into the N40. It's a town of about 15,000 people which is basically a suburb of Cork and it's connected by a stub of a link into the N40 which turns into a twisty country road.

    Every morning it's jammed and it's handling very heavy traffic all day.

    Any motorway link that direction would absolutely have to connect Carrigaline.


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    #28
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Limerick74 wrote: »
    Article 17 of the TEN-T Regulations describes the type of roads required:

    3. High-quality roads shall be specially designed and built for motor traffic, and shall be either motorways, express roads or conventional strategic roads.
    (a) A motorway is a road specially designed and built for motor traffic, which does not serve properties bordering on it and which:
    (i) is provided, except at special points or temporarily, with separate carriageways for the two directions of traffic, separated from each other by a dividing strip not intended for traffic or, exceptionally, by other means;
    (ii) does not cross at grade with any road, railway or tramway track, bicycle path or footpath; and
    (iii) is specially sign-posted as a motorway.
    (b) An express road is a road designed for motor traffic, which is accessible primarily from interchanges or controlled junctions and which:
    (i) prohibits stopping and parking on the running carriageway; and
    (ii) does not cross at grade with any railway or tramway track.
    (c) A conventional strategic road is a road which is not a motorway or express road but which is still a high-quality road as referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2.

    In other words, there's no necessity to build motorways to Foynes or Ringaskiddy.

    The regulations would be satisfied by the building of 'high-quality' and 'conventional strategic roads'.


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    #29
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    antoobrien wrote: »
    It seems to specify motorway, though given the fact that this is a European document, that could be a linguistic nuance, rather than a grade specification It's also not limited to road, but also mentions rail & inland waterways.

    Here is the text that seems to apply from the regulation



    'Motorways of the sea' aren't roads - they're just shipping lanes with appropriate port infrastructure.


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    #30
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    'Motorways of the sea' aren't roads - they're just shipping lanes with appropriate port infrastructure.

    Oops, mind totally blanked the "of the sea" at the end of the sentence (probably because it's not a phrase I'd heave heard e.g. sea lanes) .


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    #31
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Whatever about Ringaskiddy, the big issue in that area is that there should be a motorway / DC to Carrigaline feeding into the N40. It's a town of about 15,000 people which is basically a suburb of Cork and it's connected by a stub of a link into the N40 which turns into a twisty country road.

    Every morning it's jammed and it's handling very heavy traffic all day.

    Any motorway link that direction would absolutely have to connect Carrigaline.

    Have a look at the link I threw up near the start of the thread. Contains a map of the N28 dualling project.

    It will be an offline build and will have a junction for Carrigaline. That junction will be quite close to where the current roundabout entering Carrigaline is.

    The road is badly needed. The traffic queuing in the mornings is terrible.


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