Board Shaping Discussion No advertising

cpoh1 · 05-03-2014 11:38am #1

I would expect a cheaper price for a machine shaped board (but hand finished) than a shaped from scratch board by a local shaper.

I wouldnt run away from machine shaped boards - whether its from china, Oz, France or Ireland. The key thing is the ingredients. Once the foam and glas used is of a decent quality then the template used for the machine is key and the shaper is incidental.

The surfboard industry is changing rapidly. Hand shaped boards are becoming rarer and machine boards are becoming the norm. as I see it you have 3 options:

1. Go with the foreign machine shaped boards. Some fantastic tried and tested templates (mcCoy, channel islands, mctavish, lost etc.),quality of materials not great and the board wont last more than a few years. They can be gotten cheap depending on where you look compared to originals.

2. Go with the local shapers machine shaped standard templates, may not work as well as top brands as above but will use better materials and be cheaper than a hand shaped board from shapers.

3. Go with a hand shaped board from your local shaper - good materials, hand crafted and you get the personal touch.

2 & 3 are slowly joining - the future of fully hand shaped boards is near the end unfortunately if shapers are to compete with the manufacturing warehouses.

cpoh1 · 05-03-2014 11:48am

glide wrote: »

Hi cpoh

I still hand shape even though I have a machine but I use the machine for consistency to get the rocker deck roll bottom foil and outline all perfect then I finish the board by hand
It means every single board is the true to the start point of my design

Hi Glide, my last two boards were both created in a machine and hand finished by the shaper himself. Would you agree that you are cutting at least half the labour from the build? At the end of the day you are just giving a smoothing of the rails and top/bottom of the board before glassing. The machine finishes the rocker, all the critical dimensions, the rail edge profile etc. Your board is basically 80% shaped when it comes out of the machine.

I got a decent discount over a hand shaped price from my shaper because he uses a machine and would expect from any shaper moving forward too compared to traditional prices.

glide · 05-03-2014 2:17pm

cpoh1 wrote: »

Hi Glide, my last two boards were both created in a machine and hand finished by the shaper himself. Would you agree that you are cutting at least half the labour from the build? At the end of the day you are just giving a smoothing of the rails and top/bottom of the board before glassing. The machine finishes the rocker, all the critical dimensions, the rail edge profile etc. Your board is basically 80% shaped when it comes out of the machine.

I got a decent discount over a hand shaped price from my shaper because he uses a machine and would expect from any shaper moving forward too compared to traditional prices.

It's funny
I'm more busy now than ever due to having a machine my racks are full with orders waiting on collection, I'm fully booked up with 15 for the next month

My prices are the same the last few years even though material prices have gone up about 25% , most of my work is in the colour work
A machine is just another tool just like a planer or do I have to go back to pre planer tools to satisfy you? You have to be able to shape first before having a clue how to use a machine
To get a shape right in the machine takes hours if not days of testing and tweaking
When I get to shape on the machine on a new shape I'm already over what it takes to hand shape!

And you want a discount?

The fact is its impossible to make a living in this country as a shaper with all the costs involved unless u have a machine or workers but then you have to be making a lot of boards 200 plus
How many shapers are left it isn't because of machines taking over its because people won't pay for a quality handcrafted product so making them isn't financially viable!!

rodento · 05-03-2014 2:21pm

Cpoh1 your post makes no sense, most top end boards are now machine shaped and finished by hand, see link to bing in previous post and it can be argued that they certainly aren't any cheaper because of this as the shaper will have to factor in the increased overheads for equipment etc...

cpoh1 · 05-03-2014 5:26pm

glide wrote: »

It's funny
I'm more busy now than ever due to having a machine my racks are full with orders waiting on collection, I'm fully booked up with 15 for the next month

My prices are the same the last few years even though material prices have gone up about 25% , most of my work is in the colour work
A machine is just another tool just like a planer or do I have to go back to pre planer tools to satisfy you? You have to be able to shape first before having a clue how to use a machine
To get a shape right in the machine takes hours if not days of testing and tweaking
When I get to shape on the machine on a new shape I'm already over what it takes to hand shape!

And you want a discount?

The fact is its impossible to make a living in this country as a shaper with all the costs involved unless u have a machine or workers but then you have to be making a lot of boards 200 plus
How many shapers are left it isn't because of machines taking over its because people won't pay for a quality handcrafted product so making them isn't financially viable!!

No need to be so defensive!!!

A good example:

You have an IsIs or F2B in your workshop - you simply scan it and the machine takes all the critical parameters and saves it on a file. You then insert a blank in the shaping machine and it shapes an identical copy of the board you just scanned. This board then just needs to be hand finished and glassed. You have just eliminated 70% of the direct labour involved in making a traditional hand shaped board. Instead of shaping 1/2 boards a week you are now making 5/6 using the above method if you want.

Sure if you are creating a new shape (e.g. a 9'4" IsIs) for the first time you have to shape it by hand using the wooden templates but once its done you can scan that board and its forever available as a computer model/shape for any future customers.

You cant say its more expensive than a normal process for making a board otherwise you wouldnt be doing it.

cpoh1 · 05-03-2014 5:37pm

rodento wrote: »

Cpoh1 your post makes no sense, most top end boards are now machine shaped and finished by hand, see link to bing in previous post and it can be argued that they certainly aren't any cheaper because of this as the shaper will have to factor in the increased overheads for equipment etc...

Rodento what doesn't make sense?

As I stated my last two boards from an Irish shaper were machine shaped, I have no problem with it. I did get a discount from the shaper compared to his prices he normally charges for a full hand shape because it took him a fraction of the labour.

This is different to a bing/mctavish/channel islands/lost shape because these guys are working with top end proven board models, have massive reputations and are working on a huge scale worldwide. You just couldnt compare their prices with a local shaper who has his own templates and pumps them out on a machine. Sad as it is to say it the prestige isint there (not that it would bother me).

Not sure why you are both getting so defensive about this?

rodento · 05-03-2014 5:46pm

Not getting at you, just saying your post doesn't make sense

You haven't factored in the cost of the scanner and shaping machine....

glide · 05-03-2014 6:13pm

cpoh1 wrote: »

No need to be so defensive!!!

A good example:

You have an IsIs or F2B in your workshop - you simply scan it and the machine takes all the critical parameters and saves it on a file. You then insert a blank in the shaping machine and it shapes an identical copy of the board you just scanned. This board then just needs to be hand finished and glassed. You have just eliminated 70% of the direct labour involved in making a traditional hand shaped board. Instead of shaping 1/2 boards a week you are now making 5/6 using the above method if you want.

Sure if you are creating a new shape (e.g. a 9'4" IsIs) for the first time you have to shape it by hand using the wooden templates but once its done you can scan that board and its forever available as a computer model/shape for any future customers.

You cant say its more expensive than a normal process for making a board otherwise you wouldnt be doing it.

No you have just taken of 1. 5 hours of the shaping of the board that's all lol

We pay more here for all raw materials compared to these big companies you mention they are buying in extreme bulk so get huge discounts

You asking them for cheaper boards ?

Just today my shipper of blanks pulled out so each board will have to go up by 40€! It's funny you are the only person saying my boards should be less

Had Zeph and pavel both tell me I'm underpriced and my boards are as good as anything in the us!
But I keep my prices down so more surfers can afford them

You say it should cost less with the machine, but as ratty says you ain't factored in a huge loan , electric , hearing and lighting plus machine damage when it plays up!

glide · 05-03-2014 6:14pm

Oh and the Irish shaper probably gave you a discount because he wanted the work I don't do discounts don't need to

cpoh1 · 05-03-2014 6:20pm

rodento wrote: »

Not getting at you, just saying your post doesn't make sense

You haven't factored in the cost of the scanner and shaping machine....

A shaping machine? I would estimate anything between €10-20k retail to a private buyer. Factor in ex. vat, write off to tax and grants to purchase for a company then a whole lot less than that. Software would be the big cost.

You have to remember that if you go from shaping 2 boards a week to 5 you are essentially doubling your margin. Even if you make a modest living as a shaper (say €400-500 a week after materials). A machine shaper will be paid for in 6 months. Also remember that every trade has expensive tools, a carpenter will have bench/skill saws, a van for getting to work etc. 10-20k is not too bad if the lifespan of the equipment is 10+ years.

This is not a dig at any shapers out there who use this equipment, I support it. Im merely stating that for non established brands (local shapers) who are eliminating a decent element of labour then I would expect the price to reflect it slightly.

glide · 05-03-2014 7:37pm

cpoh1 wrote: »

A shaping machine? I would estimate anything between €10-20k retail to a private buyer. Factor in ex. vat, write off to tax and grants to purchase for a company then a whole lot less than that. Software would be the big cost.

You have to remember that if you go from shaping 2 boards a week to 5 you are essentially doubling your margin. Even if you make a modest living as a shaper (say €400-500 a week after materials). A machine shaper will be paid for in 6 months. Also remember that every trade has expensive tools, a carpenter will have bench/skill saws, a van for getting to work etc. 10-20k is not too bad if the lifespan of the equipment is 10+ years.

This is not a dig at any shapers out there who use this equipment, I support it. Im merely stating that for non established brands (local shapers) who are eliminating a decent element of labour then I would expect the price to reflect it slightly.[/

Ok shaping machines start at. €36k

But don't let that put you off

Ok 5 boards per week 100€ profit on a board how you gonna pay your factory worker to do. 5 per week?
Plus nice old mr taxmans cut and all your other expenses for accountants ext

Your a bit off on your logic of making a living I made 80 boards one year sounds ok ended up with 4k profit then taxman came in

When you increase your business size and up production in a bespoke industry remember there are only about 6 shapers here the price isn't going to be lower my prices could easily be 150€ more but I don't raise them I would rather people buy my boards

Oh you forgot that you need the demand for 5 per week in Ireland where no shops will buy your boards!

ted1 · 05-03-2014 7:45pm

cpoh1 wrote: »

A shaping machine? I would estimate anything between €10-20k retail to a private buyer. Factor in ex. vat, write off to tax and grants to purchase for a company then a whole lot less than that. Software would be the big cost.

You have to remember that if you go from shaping 2 boards a week to 5 you are essentially doubling your margin. Even if you make a modest living as a shaper (say €400-500 a week after materials). A machine shaper will be paid for in 6 months. Also remember that every trade has expensive tools, a carpenter will have bench/skill saws, a van for getting to work etc. 10-20k is not too bad if the lifespan of the equipment is 10+ years.

This is not a dig at any shapers out there who use this equipment, I support it. Im merely stating that for non established brands (local shapers) who are eliminating a decent element of labour then I would expect the price to reflect it slightly.

Sounds like a no brainer, when are you going to open shop?

glide · 05-03-2014 8:30pm

ted1 wrote: »

Sounds like a no brainer, when are you going to open shop?

Yeah that's 24k he has earned
Add in a mortgage living expenses and taxes he might have 5 k

Nice going working all the hours of the day to get those 5 boards done

glide · 05-03-2014 8:43pm

glide wrote: »

Yeah that's 24k he has earned
Add in a mortgage living expenses and taxes he might have 5 k

Nice going working all the hours of the day to get those 5 boards done

Oh and I forgot all the discounts hes gonna give out!

spaceHopper · 06-03-2014 12:20am

Guy's chill the beans, when I said the best board is one hand crafted for you I meant shaped for you - no dig are machines or at Glide intended. More buy one mode for you than some GSI soulless copy from a famous shaper collecting a license fee.

People have been taking templates off good boards and copping them ever since templates were invented. Things have moved on and we have scanners, 3D SW and machines now - the board are still custom made for the individual and end to end there is a craftsman involved.

Stoked to have just gotten a new West Bay longboard, first new board made for me in 8 years - and yea it was profiled on a machine!

By the way went with West Bay because I wanted to try EPS / Epoxy

Glide fair play to you for taking it from back yard shaping to a full scale business - can't be easy hope it's a big success

cpoh1 · 06-03-2014 9:23am

Firstly, nobody has made any specific comments about your overheads, board prices, workload or quality of your work - you have made this thread specific to you and brought your own personal work into it

Ive no gripe with you and dont want to drag this thread any more off topic but there are a few comments that need addressing before I bow out.

glide wrote: »

No you have just taken of 1. 5 hours of the shaping of the board that's all lol

Considering a KMS shaping machine takes over an hour to finish a shortboard (personally witnessed for my own board) I find it extremely hard to believe that measuring the template, cutting the outline, getting the rocker spot on, foil, rails and finish to machine standard can be done by you in 1.5 hours. Incredible really, if you are being honest a longboard will take the bones of a days work to get to this stage.

glide wrote: »

You say it should cost less with the machine, but as ratty says you ain't factored in a huge loan , electric , hearing and lighting plus machine damage when it plays up!

glide wrote: »

Ok shaping machines start at. €36k

A top end shaping machine may cost that much sure (all in vat etc.), but not all. Now factor in the substantial leader scheme grant you received, the ex. vat price and the fact that tools are tax deductable and you paid a fraction of that price. Thats not a dig, fair play to you, it brings up profitability and increases output with no drop in quality. Never the question of this thread!!!!

Electricity, heating are all existing overheads independent of a machine. Tools of the trade are a standard in all trades over here, a tyre fitters equipment can cost over 50k. A carpenters skill saws can run well into 30-40k.

glide wrote: »

Ok 5 boards per week 100€ profit on a board how you gonna pay your factory worker to do. 5 per week?

Materials for a shortboard will not come much past €200 from seabase for someone off the street, much cheaper for bulk and industry. Even with overheads I would hope that you are making much more than €100 on a board for you and your families sake. My last shortboard cost me €400 and im sure the shaper still make a decnt profit on it.

cpoh1 · 06-03-2014 9:38am

spaceHopper wrote: »

Glide fair play to you for taking it from back yard shaping to a full scale business - can't be easy hope it's a big success

Spacehopper completely agree especially with the last sentiment - no idea why people have become so defensive and brought personal circumstances into it. I wish Glide all the best and know lots of happy customers with his boards.

Best of luck with the westbay - would be interested to see how you fins the eps on the log.

Back on topic:

At the end of the day i got a discount of €75 off my last two boards because it was a much easier job for the shaper than him building a board from scratch - shaping machines allow you to improve margins and upscale production. This is the only way shapers in Ireland will survive when compared to multinational shaping companies.

The downside for Irish shapers is that it has never been easier to get a standard shape from a top brand with proven performance. Al merrick, lost and rusty boards can be bought easily now online with great templates that have been dialled to perfection and really do fly. Quality is good too if its not from the asian market. Question is do people want to fork out the extra €100 plus for the brand and the extra 10% in template quality.

My personal preference would be a local shaper and try to match some of the popular templates out there.

glide · 06-03-2014 10:52am

cpoh1 wrote: »

Firstly, nobody has made any specific comments about your overheads, board prices, workload or quality of your work - you have made this thread specific to you and brought your own personal work into it

Ive no gripe with you and dont want to drag this thread any more off topic but there are a few comments that need addressing before I bow out.

Considering a KMS shaping machine takes over an hour to finish a shortboard (personally witnessed for my own board) I find it extremely hard to believe that measuring the template, cutting the outline, getting the rocker spot on, foil, rails and finish to machine standard can be done by you in 1.5 hours. Incredible really, if you are being honest a longboard will take the bones of a days work to get to this stage.

A top end shaping machine may cost that much sure (all in vat etc.), but not all. Now factor in the substantial leader scheme grant you received, the ex. vat price and the fact that tools are tax deductable and you paid a fraction of that price. Thats not a dig, fair play to you, it brings up profitability and increases output with no drop in quality. Never the question of this thread!!!!

Electricity, heating are all existing overheads independent of a machine. Tools of the trade are a standard in all trades over here, a tyre fitters equipment can cost over 50k. A carpenters skill saws can run well into 30-40k.

Materials for a shortboard will not come much past €200 from seabase for someone off the street, much cheaper for bulk and industry. Even with overheads I would hope that you are making much more than €100 on a board for you and your families sake. My last shortboard cost me €400 and im sure the shaper still make a decnt profit on it.

Lol when this thread started you stated you have a machine so your boards should be cheaper thats personal

You really have no clue about the time it takes to make a board, to shape a log on a slow day i take 3 hrs start to finish by hand ready for glassing
To get to the point where the machine gets me takes 2 hrs by hand
I dont know where you got the figure of a whole day from
I used to hand shape three logs in a day

Top lvl hand shapers take around 1.5-2hrs to shape a log (FACT)
In essence the machine isn't saving anytime for me as i still have to sit there or be around it to check and turn blank lol

Fact two the kms machine is the cheapest surfboard shaping machine
There are only about 5-6 different machines in the world
Other cncs arent usable for surfboards
Yes i got a leader grant you got that right i still had to pay out the rest which a percentage is tax deduct able over 8 years so means nothing lol

glide · 06-03-2014 11:03am

cpoh1 wrote: »

Spacehopper completely agree especially with the last sentiment - no idea why people have become so defensive and brought personal circumstances into it. I wish Glide all the best and know lots of happy customers with his boards.

Best of luck with the westbay - would be interested to see how you fins the eps on the log.

Back on topic:

At the end of the day i got a discount of €75 off my last two boards because it was a much easier job for the shaper than him building a board from scratch - shaping machines allow you to improve margins and upscale production. This is the only way shapers in Ireland will survive when compared to multinational shaping companies.

The downside for Irish shapers is that it has never been easier to get a standard shape from a top brand with proven performance. Al merrick, lost and rusty boards can be bought easily now online with great templates that have been dialled to perfection and really do fly. Quality is good too if its not from the asian market. Question is do people want to fork out the extra €100 plus for the brand and the extra 10% in template quality.

My personal preference would be a local shaper and try to match some of the popular templates out there.

Ok so first point thanks

Next point you got a €75 discount of a board that usually sells for €400 and you paid €400 for it nice

The regular price for a short board from shapers in Ireland is €400 (fact)
Most people dont like the quality of the als, lost etc as they are made in Europe and arent as durable as the US ones (fact) though the price is still around the €590 mark

If you need anymore proper info on surfboard shaping in Ireland and further afield please contact me use a blocked number if you need to stay anonymous

The only reason i got defensive is due to your lack of actual information
I'm trying to educate people and give all correct info

kodute · 06-03-2014 11:17am

If I buy a 3D printer and download some surfboard templates from piratebay, how long until I'm a billionaire? :pac:

glide · 06-03-2014 11:20am

kodute wrote: »

If I buy a 3D printer and download some surfboard templates from piratebay, how long until I'm a billionaire? :pac:

Can I be your partner it's never gonna fail lol

cpoh1 · 06-03-2014 11:27am

"Lol"? Are you serious using that shorthand with every sentence?

This thread is going nowhere and you are making yourself look worse with every post.

So you spend a lot of money on a machine but it doesnt save you time and effort and most importantly MONEY? Riiiighhhtttt.

If you take 3 hours to shape a longboard (or 3 a day!) why were your customers (personal friends of mine) waiting up to 3 months for boards off you in the past? Mervyn Beard took 4-6 hours to get a shortboard shaped in the past, Doidge Harrison roughly the same - both from direct personal experience witnessing myself (I like to get involved). They must both useless shapers?

So you say a machine costs €36k minimum but now the KMS is cheaper? Does that mean €36k is not the cheapest then?

No answer to margins with materials...

Waffle about what other shapers are charging (the only shaper in ireland who would supply a shortboard with fins for €400 was tom doidge and that was 2 years ago).

Genuinely my last post because this is just a joke at this stage. No credibility when you state that a machine doesnt save time, effort and money. Prospective customers are reading this, look back and question what they might e thinking here? Gone now.

glide · 06-03-2014 11:32am

cpoh1 wrote: »

"Lol"? Are you serious using that shorthand with every sentence?

This thread is going nowhere and you are making yourself look worse with every post.

So you spend a lot of money on a machine but it doesnt save you time and effort and most importantly MONEY? Riiiighhhtttt.

If you take 3 hours to shape a longboard (or 3 a day!) why were your customers (personal friends of mine) waiting up to 3 months for boards off you in the past? Mervyn Beard took 4-6 hours to get a shortboard shaped in the past, Doidge Harrison roughly the same - both from direct personal experience witnessing myself (I like to get involved). They must both useless shapers?

So you say a machine costs €36k minimum but now the KMS is cheaper? Does that mean €36k is not the cheapest then?

No answer to margins with materials...

Waffle about what other shapers are charging (the only shaper in ireland who would supply a shortboard with fins for €400 was tom doidge and that was 2 years ago).

Genuinely my last post because this is just a joke at this stage. No credibility when you state that a machine doesnt save time, effort and money. Prospective customers are reading this, look back and question what they might e thinking here? Gone now.

Bye
Fact of the matter is you have no clue still! Closed mind

keryl · 06-03-2014 11:33am

Anyone out there able to post boards they had shaped?

Would be cool to see different styles and rare boards posted

glide · 06-03-2014 11:51am

keryl wrote: »

Anyone out there able to post boards they had shaped?

Would be cool to see different styles and rare boards posted

Hi keryl what do u want to see I've had to sell off a few of mine to keep me afloat over the past 2 years but still have a couple of logs
Or if you want to see current stuff I can throw up pics

spaceHopper · 06-03-2014 12:19pm

keryl wrote: »

Anyone out there able to post boards they had shaped?

Would be cool to see different styles and rare boards posted

That sounds like a quiver picture off! Let the games begin!

I ordered a board in November and got it in early Jan, takes time to get to the top of the que before the board is made.

Oneday I'll be rich enough to have my own shaper on standby to make me board at the drop of a hat. But by the time it's ready for glassing I'll have changed my mind about what I wanted and he'll have to start again. He'll be one bussy dude.

rodento · 06-03-2014 12:28pm

You can start with the synch quad your shaping me

keryl · 06-03-2014 12:38pm

Well just to post various boards, different designs and stuff thats a bit different but artwork is always great to see anyway.

Freedive Ireland · 06-03-2014 1:59pm

Jaysus lads, free market and all that.

If you want a plastic fantastic go for it. If you think Glides hand/machine shaped with awesome, inspirational, funky, trippy artwork boards are worth it go for it.

I was on a soft top the last couple of weeks as my board was getting a few dings fixed. Guess what I had a blast. I got my board back at the weekend and got out a few times since and guess what, I had a blast.

Stop raining on each others trip.

Paul, kudos on going for it.

fundi · 06-03-2014 5:17pm

glide wrote: »

Ok shaping machines start at. €36k

But don't let that put you off

Ok 5 boards per week 100€ profit on a board how you gonna pay your factory worker to do. 5 per week?
Plus nice old mr taxmans cut and all your other expenses for accountants ext

Your a bit off on your logic of making a living I made 80 boards one year sounds ok ended up with 4k profit then taxman came in

80 boards one year is only an average of 1.6 per week. If you take an average price per board of €500 (in round numbers ) thats €40,000 worth of turnover per year. Someone else said materials would be 200 per board, thats €16000, so that leaves a gross profit of 24000. Out of that you pay electricity, insurance, website, other overheads. However a mate in the pub after a surf reckoned if a shaper sells say 5 a week thats say €75000 worth of profit per year, plus income from ding repairs I guess. I told him I did not think shapers would sell 5 a week, but maybe I am wrong. Wonder how many surfboards are sold in Ireland each year?

promethius · 06-03-2014 10:09pm

thought i'd landed on an askabout money thread for a min :-)

i got a custom thruster a few years back from powersource. went up, met the guy, went through my abilities, size, the type of waves i like to catch etc. that was a humdinger of a board, held up so well to travel and the inevitable knocks that happen. i got him to write my name by the dims under the glass and picked out a nice paint job. felt like i was part of the process and while it was more expensive than an off the shelf board, it was well worth it. it surfed beautifully.

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