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Rural Broadband - Split from ESB Broadband

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  • 11-02-2014 12:03pm
    #1
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    MOD: There has been an awful lot of talk about rural broadband in general in the ESB Thread, so I've created this new thread with some of the most recent posts (but not all, far too many to go through them all) so people can continue the conversation about rural broadband here, while leaving the ESB Broadband thread purely to discussion about the ESB rollout. Thanks

    garroff wrote: »
    BK....I hate to say it....you were right.....well done.
    Rural BB users.....get lost....that's the message.

    I joined IrelandOffLine 15 years ago to fight for broadband in Ireland for everyone, both urban and rural and I'm still here fighting for exactly that.

    But I'm an engineer and realist and I know the true, horrendous cost of bringing BB to rural Ireland and I'm only trying to make people understand the reality and come up with realistic achievable short terms goals for improving rural broadband.

    Yes, 40 years from now it is likely every home in Ireland will have FTTH. But it will likely take 40 years!

    Both Eircoms VDSL rollout and this ESB rollout are very good news for rural Ireland.

    Eircoms VDSL rollout is going to reach 1.4 million homes, many in very small rural villages, which currently have little or no broadband. That is excellent news for the people living in or close to those rural villages.

    It is also excellent news as potentially the fibre to these VDSL cabinets can then be used to feed LTE and fixed wireless antennas to deliver high speed broadband wirelessly to the surrounding countryside *

    This ESB rollout is excellent news for a couple of reasons:

    1) It brings a second network and thus some real competition to many people who only have Eircom as a choice at the moment, thus keeping Eircom on their toes.

    2) It will bring FTTH to many large rural towns, good news for people living in these towns.

    3) Again this fibre can be used to power LTE and fixed wireless antennas * for the surrounding countryside.

    4) Most importantly, in the long term, the ESB are the most likely company to bring FTTH in rural Ireland IMO. The experience the ESB gain today rolling out this FTTH network and operating a network will be invaluable if the ESB decide to expand more into rural Ireland in future phases (perhaps with government subsidy).

    So all is not lost, in fact things are looking better then ever. But people need to be realistic, it will continue to be a long and hard battle.


«13

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    #2
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    MajesticDonkey wrote: »
    How would one go about this?

    Ingredients:
    A local backhaul point to connect to
    A nerd or two (a leccy wouldnt go a miss)
    Community willpower
    A tractor or a horse

    http://idle.slashdot.org/story/11/05/24/131250/draft-horses-used-to-lay-fiber-optic-cable

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/alisoncoleman/2014/02/06/europes-fastest-rural-broadband-network-british-farmers-are-digging-it/

    There are plenty of examples if you have a google. There's a very good video from rural england but I cant find it right now.



    Its no small task, but where there's a will there's a way.


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    #3
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    MajesticDonkey wrote: »
    I fear it'll be at least 10 years before I even get a reliable DSL connection, let alone fibre. I am seriously considering getting a community BB scheme going, or at least looking into it for the moment.

    Really good summary of this idea:


    You'd need somebody like Barry Forde seen there to oversee such a project, but Im sure if you look hard enough there would be somebody willing.



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    #4
    MajesticDonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,213 ✭✭✭MajesticDonkey


    Awesome, thanks. Might shoot off an email to them. :)


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    #5
    bealtine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭bealtine


    MajesticDonkey wrote: »
    Awesome, thanks. Might shoot off an email to them. :)

    There are a few community broadband schemes going here in Ireland (and a few in planning) you'd be better off talking to one of those as they can explain the process from an Irish perspective, ask Irelandoffline for details www.irelandoffline.org


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    #6
    MajesticDonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,213 ✭✭✭MajesticDonkey


    bealtine wrote: »
    There are a few community broadband schemes going here in Ireland (and a few in planning) you'd be better off talking to one of those as they can explain the process from an Irish perspective, ask Irelandoffline for details www.irelandoffline.org

    Will do, thanks... :)


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    #7
    funnyname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭funnyname


    MajesticDonkey wrote: »
    Will do, thanks... :)

    You might also want to look at this

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74983299#post74983299


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    #8
    MajesticDonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,213 ✭✭✭MajesticDonkey


    funnyname wrote: »
    You might also want to look at this

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74983299#post74983299

    Strange..I read some of that thread last week, closed it and couldn't find it again afterwards, so thanks!


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    #9
    football_lover
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭football_lover


    murphaph wrote: »
    Your definition of a one-off house is at odds with the accepted definition used by everyone else so it's very hard to debate the issue with you to be honest. In any case, the vast vast majority of homes in rural Ireland do not belong to farmers or those in allied sectors, far too many belong to people who work in urban centres but want to live 200m from the next house. That's a lifestyle choice that brings with it poorer availability of utilities.

    400m Will not come close to covering this for rural area's.

    It will be a figure in the billions and when this figure is compare in terms in agricultural GDP it is a small figure.

    The ignorance that exists on these boards is staggering at times. People think it is acceptable to block rural communications on the basis of cost and then neglect the fact that rural contributes billions to the Irish economy.

    And that figure is going to get larger over the coming years and if we hold back on fiber optics it will stunt this growth.

    This is the same old Irish cannot think beyond their yearly Fianna Fáil vs Fine Gael.


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    #10
    football_lover
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭football_lover


    ED E wrote: »
    Like that'll change anything. Even if we had a minister for communications who didnt have his head up his arse Comreg and the ISPs would still be the same. NBS would still be a joke. 4G would still be crippled.

    If you're rural and want decent BB, start a community BB scheme. Thats the only thing that'll happen any time soon.


    People are already paying a high level of taxes and they should not be expected to pay for more to cover a communications system that people in the Cities already get.

    Starting a project sounds like a good idea until you view it from a point of view that the market place is already being controlled and such projects would face massive hurdles on a planning level alone.

    This issue is multidimensional and complex.


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    #11
    football_lover
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭football_lover


    bk wrote: »
    I joined IrelandOffLine 15 years ago to fight for broadband in Ireland for everyone, both urban and rural and I'm still here fighting for exactly that.

    But I'm an engineer and realist and I know the true, horrendous cost of bringing BB to rural Ireland and I'm only trying to make people understand the reality and come up with realistic achievable short terms goals for improving rural broadband.

    Yes, 40 years from now it is likely every home in Ireland will have FTTH. But it will likely take 40 years!

    Both Eircoms VDSL rollout and this ESB rollout are very good news for rural Ireland.

    Eircoms VDSL rollout is going to reach 1.4 million homes, many in very small rural villages, which currently have little or no broadband. That is excellent news for the people living in or close to those rural villages.

    It is also excellent news as potentially the fibre to these VDSL cabinets can then be used to feed LTE and fixed wireless antennas to deliver high speed broadband wirelessly to the surrounding countryside *

    This ESB rollout is excellent news for a couple of reasons:

    1) It brings a second network and thus some real competition to many people who only have Eircom as a choice at the moment, thus keeping Eircom on their toes.

    2) It will bring FTTH to many large rural towns, good news for people living in these towns.

    3) Again this fibre can be used to power LTE and fixed wireless antennas * for the surrounding countryside.

    4) Most importantly, in the long term, the ESB are the most likely company to bring FTTH in rural Ireland IMO. The experience the ESB gain today rolling out this FTTH network and operating a network will be invaluable if the ESB decide to expand more into rural Ireland in future phases (perhaps with government subsidy).

    So all is not lost, in fact things are looking better then ever. But people need to be realistic, it will continue to be a long and hard battle.

    This is a national issue. It would be very expensive and be in the regions of billions to create widespread rural FTTX.

    But if we are going to be properly realistic in regards to this we cannot afford to let this happen over the next 40 years.

    It must happen over the next 5 years. Agriculture is too important to our economy to just ignore this.

    Food quality and productivity are very important and a widespread communications system is very important in this. You could use wireless systems to overcome extreme situations for the last mile that are part of a fiber optics system.

    Over the next 10 years genetics and embedded systems are going dictate agriculture.

    It is quite simple we either adapt in this global market of we will sink. This issue has far reaching implications to areas of health and education.

    A child today is at a disadvantage if their home does not have broadband.


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    #12
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes agriculture is important. But the truth is most people living in these ribbon developments in rural Ireland aren't involved in agriculture. Most just live there and just commute to work in bigger towns and cities.

    Also in most other European countries, farmers don't actually live on their farm, they mostly live in villages near by where it is easier to bring services like broadband, water, etc.

    You are kidding yourself if you think 100% of homes will be FTTH in 5 years. Where do you think the 3 or so Billion to do that is going to come from? And even if the money was there, it would still take much longer to do.

    Lets be realistic here and lets come up with realistic solutions.


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    #13
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Government allows boom in housing, forcing people to move to commuter belt, then balks at the idea of giving services to said displaced people.
    I would love to live in the city but lived in apartments for far too long. There is no way that I could have afforded a decent house in any decent part of the city. In fact, versus where I would have been able to afford a (crappy) house, it is a quicker commute to where I work from where I live now


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    #14
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    Government allows boom in housing, forcing people to move to commuter belt, then balks at the idea of giving services to said displaced people.
    I would love to live in the city but lived in apartments for far too long. There is no way that I could have afforded a decent house in any decent part of the city. In fact, versus where I would have been able to afford a (crappy) house, it is a quicker commute to where I work from where I live now

    Well the reality is most cities don't have many houses and most people live in apartments.

    It is Irish peoples obsession with living in a three bedroom house with a garden that has forced people to live so far out from the city. It is simply impossible to build houses for everyone in a city, there just isn't the space, it is simple supply and demand.

    Government (both national and local) are partly responsible for letting this happen with very poor planning laws *, but in many ways that is just a reflection of the pressure they receive from the Irish population to allow them to build one off houses, due to the Irish obsession.

    * Poor both in terms of allowing one off houses to be built, but also poor in not letting more high rise apartment buildings and poor in terms of not demanding apartments be larger, more like what you find in Europe.


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    #15
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    MOD: There has been an awful lot of talk about rural broadband in general in the ESB Thread, so I've created this new thread with some of the most recent posts (but not all, far too many to go through them all) so people can continue the conversation about rural broadband here, while leaving the ESB Broadband thread purely to discussion about the ESB rollout. Thanks


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    #16
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    have you seen what you can get in Europe as an apartment?
    Here you pay rent on a shoebox badly built and serviced apartment that is equivalent to a mortgage on a three bedroom on an acre, less than 20 minutes from Dublin.
    There are very few professional landlords in Ireland also. There is constant threat of people selling the apartment out from under you.

    Also why are there apartments in the suburbs and places like citywest, saggart, Douglas, bishopstown etc?
    The burbs is where houses are meant to be built but crappy apartmemt blocks there instead.
    We have one of the lowest population densities in europe so there should be plenty of room for city centre apartment amd suburban house living but constant government folding to construction industry pressure has forced surban style housing to the countryside and, as long as people are pushed that far out they will take advantage and not be slammed up next to a neighbour.


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    #17
    Chris The Hacker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 149 ✭✭Chris The Hacker


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    Also why are there apartments in the suburbs and places like citywest, saggart, Douglas, bishopstown etc?
    The burbs is where houses are meant to be built but crappy apartmemt blocks there instead.
    We have one of the lowest population densities in europe so there should be plenty of room for city centre apartment amd suburban house living but constant government folding to construction industry pressure has forced surban style housing to the countryside and, as long as people are pushed that far out they will take advantage and not be slammed up next to a neighbour.

    They should really sort out the scumbag problem by demolishing the council flats in and around the city center and build more upscale apartments to attract a better class of people.

    There's too many skangers hanging around the city center and it's because there's council housing only a stone's throw away from the city center.


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    #18
    jbkenn
    Registered Users Posts: 919 ✭✭✭jbkenn


    While FttH may be a long time coming to rural area's, we are well on our way to delivering 100 Mb broadband to every 2nd level school in Ireland,
    http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Communications+Development/Schools+Broadband+Access+Programme/
    This programme is delivering to a secondary school near you, as these links will be idle 90% of the time with a small bit of imagination these links could be used to feed local higb speed wireless broadband links locally, but, this being Ireland and the DCENR being in charge that ain't never going to happen... it would make too much sense and DCENR don't do sense, as anyone who has ever had the misfortune to deal with them can attest.


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    #19
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    HEANET are responsible for feeding a lot of primary and secondary schools now but they aren't taking a fibre tap for each one. Lots of rural schools are fed by wireless links that max out at 400Mbps, not enough to feed a community. Its also not in their remit to provide access to anyone other than educational facilities.

    What you need there is councils encouraging Eircom Wholesale to expand the NGN network. Waive the civils, lay ducting etc when doing routine maintenance and then offer it to them. Audit the town properly and give them a real figure on the userbase there. Thats what might get you connected.


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    #20
    jbkenn
    Registered Users Posts: 919 ✭✭✭jbkenn


    400Mbps, not enough to feed a community
    More than enough, as a temporary measure, a hell of a lot better than 2Mb if you are lucky


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    #21
    football_lover
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭football_lover


    bk wrote: »
    Yes agriculture is important. But the truth is most people living in these ribbon developments in rural Ireland aren't involved in agriculture. Most just live there and just commute to work in bigger towns and cities.

    Also in most other European countries, farmers don't actually live on their farm, they mostly live in villages near by where it is easier to bring services like broadband, water, etc.

    You are kidding yourself if you think 100% of homes will be FTTH in 5 years. Where do you think the 3 or so Billion to do that is going to come from? And even if the money was there, it would still take much longer to do.

    Lets be realistic here and lets come up with realistic solutions.

    First of all we are not another European country and for us to adapt their culture at this point would be very stupid.

    We do not even have rural villages like the continental countries (and some of them are different as well).

    Ireland is also unique in Europe as one of the few countries that is a net producer of food.

    I have never said that the whole country would be FTTX in 5 years but that is the kind window that we have for rural and it should not be 40 years (that is simply not an option from a economics point of view).

    You are correct that most people who live in the country are not working in agriculture because that would be impossible based on the Size of Ireland.

    But most people who are involved in Agriculture are living in rural communities very few live in urban.

    The issue is multifaceted. First of all if we want our agricultural system to go high tech then we are going to need high bandwidth communications system and fiber is the easiest method to achieve this.

    There is no realistic solution beyond a fiber optics communications systems.No other approach will work for rural. Wireless, copper transmission and coaxial are simply not realistic.

    The overall cost to our economy if we do not have a proper strategy to deal with this will be a lot more than 3 billion.

    We simply do not have the vision nor understanding as a nation as to what is at stake here.

    As a nation we simply have to make the resource available.

    If tried to make Ireland move from a large rural population to that of a urban population that you are suggesting it will cost a lot more than 3 billion and it will take more than 40 years to achieve.


    Even our developed cities and urban towns simply do not have the infrastructure to deal with rural population moving there.

    Dublin cannot even supply its self with enough water at times and that is only going to get worse and funny enough that extra water is going to come from rural.

    If we want increase Dublin by 30% and double a lot of the small towns in size and redevelop small rural cluster we will probably require 100s of billions.

    And most of these urban clusters do not have sufficient highway/motor ways to deal with the traffic.

    Sorry what did you say about realistic solutions.


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    #22
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,624 ✭✭✭Nermal


    football_lover wrote: »
    assorted blather

    If the agricultural industry is desperate for broadband in the sticks, then let the agricultural industry pay for it. I won't, I already paid more to live in an urban area.


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    #23
    Nonoperational
    Registered Users Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    I may be making things over simplistic, but it seems to me that there are many many fixed wireless ISPs in place in rural Ireland but they are crippled by limited backhaul. Surely step one is to increase the availability of cheap reliable backhaul to these providers and see where that gets us?

    With the increase in the fibre network it should be a priority to get these local WISPS ample backhaul for a start. I'm sitting here with a consistent 50Mbit to myself yet there are many local WISPS working off a fraction of that per 48 customers. No need to reinvent the wheel until it's necessary. Like it or not, fibre to rural homes is miles and miles away, but fibre to local WISPS and LTE sites is much more manageable surely.

    I've said it many times, but stable 10+ Mbit links for everyone are more important than 1Gbps links. If everyone in the country was guaranteed access to non contended 30Mbits by whatever means necessary then it would be something we could be proud of.


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    #24
    MajesticDonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,213 ✭✭✭MajesticDonkey


    Nermal wrote: »
    If the agricultural industry is desperate for broadband in the sticks, then let the agricultural industry pay for it. I won't, I already paid more to live in an urban area.

    Nice attitude there.


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    #25
    godskitchen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭godskitchen


    MajesticDonkey wrote: »
    Nice attitude there.

    Leave them too it, they will end up paying at the check out anyway....

    As for paying more to live in an urban area..... Rubbish, lots of hidden costs associated with living in rural Ireland.


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    #26
    godskitchen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭godskitchen


    MajesticDonkey wrote: »
    Nice attitude there.

    Leave them too it, they will end up paying at the check out anyway....

    As for paying more to live in an urban area..... Rubbish, lots of hidden costs associated with living in rural Ireland.


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    #27
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,598 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I'm sorry, but you are living in fantasy land if you think the government is going to spend 3 billion rolling out FTTH to rural Ireland in the short term, it just isn't going to happen.

    Nonoperational is absolutely correct, the short to medium term solution is improving wireless services, both the backhaul to them and also the radio frequencies licensed to them for use.

    He is absolutely correct that getting 30mb/s to everyone in rural Ireland is vastly more important then getting 1Gb/s.

    football_lover you say very high speed broadband is vital to a modern agriculture, but exactly what technologies does agriculture use, that requires 1Gb/s and can't be done with 30mb/s?

    Yes, if people in rural areas want high speed broadband, I'm afraid realistically they are going to have to pay for it themselves, just like they pay almost €2000 to get an ESB line in and then have to pay a higher rural rate from then on. A similar scheme is the only way FTTH is going to make it to rural Ireland.


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    #28
    MajesticDonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,213 ✭✭✭MajesticDonkey


    bk wrote: »
    Yes, if people in rural areas want high speed broadband, I'm afraid realistically they are going to have to pay for it themselves, just like they pay almost €2000 to get an ESB line in and then have to pay a higher rural rate from then on. A similar scheme is the only way FTTH is going to make it to rural Ireland.
    Yes, but what company is going to organise the rolling out of the fibre lines, even if everyone living in rural communities wanted it and was willing to pay for it? None of them. And neither would the government.


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    #29
    football_lover
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭football_lover


    Nermal wrote: »
    If the agricultural industry is desperate for broadband in the sticks, then let the agricultural industry pay for it. I won't, I already paid more to live in an urban area.

    We can raise the price of food to pay for this if this is what people want.

    There is no problem with this and this will be what happens eventually. If people in this country want cheap quality food then a fiber optics system is part of this.

    Animal Genetics, disease genetics, pollution analysis, Soil modelling, milk analysis, stock management and many more I could mention if you desire will require a communications.

    Other countries will be going down this route and we will be competing with them for exports.

    At the moment the quality of Irish Dairy Produce is giving us a massive advantage and long may that continue but if we want to keep leading the market we need to stay ahead of the game.


    It is simple you either understand this point or you do not. One way or another market pressures in Ireland will push us in this direction but expect your food at the market to double if there is no strategy.


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    #30
    football_lover
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭football_lover


    bk wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but you are living in fantasy land if you think the government is going to spend 3 billion rolling out FTTH to rural Ireland in the short term, it just isn't going to happen.

    Nonoperational is absolutely correct, the short to medium term solution is improving wireless services, both the backhaul to them and also the radio frequencies licensed to them for use.

    He is absolutely correct that getting 30mb/s to everyone in rural Ireland is vastly more important then getting 1Gb/s.

    football_lover you say very high speed broadband is vital to a modern agriculture, but exactly what technologies does agriculture use, that requires 1Gb/s and can't be done with 30mb/s?

    Yes, if people in rural areas want high speed broadband, I'm afraid realistically they are going to have to pay for it themselves, just like they pay almost €2000 to get an ESB line in and then have to pay a higher rural rate from then on. A similar scheme is the only way FTTH is going to make it to rural Ireland.

    Wireless is not the solution even though it is import but in no way will it be capable of delivering what is required.

    I have not mentioned 1Gb/s as the starting point.

    As I have pointed out 3 billion is small in comparison to the overall possible loss if our agriculture does not stay competitive. You may think 3 billion in this manner is large when in fact it is small in comparison to a GDP of 163 billion. And when this is factored in over 10 years it will be small and over 20 years will be a fraction of production.

    I am not saying as a starting point every home should that is Rural should have fiber just piped straight in.

    At least having a network that can be connected to is what is required even if it was $2000 for an insulation but even you know that this is a fantasy as we do not have the political will to do this and this is not the case.

    Farms of the not so distant future will be using embedded systems networks for a host of tools. Automation in agriculture is shaping production.

    It applies to every industry and not just agriculture.

    If we desire a network that can manage demand and quality it will require a communications network. The days of a farmer with a woolly hat and Wellingtons going to get shopping at the local shop in his tractor are long gone.


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    #31
    flutered
    Registered Users Posts: 6,678 ✭✭✭flutered


    Nermal wrote: »
    If the agricultural industry is desperate for broadband in the sticks, then let the agricultural industry pay for it. I won't, I already paid more to live in an urban area.

    paying 35 lids per month for 0.85 meg download and virtually no upload means most of the people in the country are subsidising the city folks b.b.


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