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What is coming down the line ?

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  • 09-11-2013 7:28pm
    #1
    madred006
    Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭


    Hi just back from fly fair in Galway great show and few bargains to be had . However serious talk about the new licence coming our way and lots of different theory's been proposed , does anyone have any idea what exactly is coming our way in January .


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    #2
    vermin99
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭vermin99


    madred006 wrote: »
    Hi just back from fly fair in Galway great show and few bargains to be had . However serious talk about the new licence coming our way and lots of different theory's been proposed , does anyone have any idea what exactly is coming our way in January .

    A license coming,like a rod license ? Do tell


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    #3
    madred006
    Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭madred006


    vermin99 wrote: »
    A license coming,like a rod license ? Do tell

    Well most people I spoke with are of the opinion that a levy will imposed on all anglers of between 50/ 70 euro and could be commencing as early as January , few guys representing Waterford anglers were saying that This could lead to registration of boats and outboard engines .I don't know how true any of it is but nothing would surprise me , especially now that the governent realise how much money angling generates here .


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    #4
    Pj!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,783 ✭✭✭Pj!


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056936033


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    #5
    thefisherbuy
    Registered Users Posts: 730 ✭✭✭thefisherbuy


    Is it free for under 18 teens better be!


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    #6
    madred006
    Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭madred006


    thefisherbuy wrote: »
    Is it free for under 18 teens better be!

    Well that's just it , according to the guys I met and spoke too are not sure in relation to teens or the exact charges but all are positive that it will be introduced from January . Our club is affiliated to tafi and we have received no notice about it or how it is going to work .


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    #7
    Pj!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,783 ✭✭✭Pj!


    madred006 wrote: »
    Our club is affiliated to tafi and we have received no notice about it or how it is going to work .

    You can read TAFI's submission (and all other submisions) here. (TAFI p.65)

    I don't think anybody fully knows what to expect as of yet.


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    #8
    madred006
    Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭madred006


    Pj! wrote: »
    You can read TAFI's submission (and all other submisions) here. (TAFI p.65)

    I don't think anybody fully knows what to expect as of yet.

    No that's true but it's only 5-6 weeks away and I guess what ever is introduced will not be up for discussion at this stage .


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    #9
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    AFAIK this will have to be introduced via primary legislation. There is a new fisheries bill which will be published next year, at this stage only the heads of bill have been drawn up and the detail is being worked on. Its a good way away yet, so talk of January is a bit ridiculous. Maybe the following January. And I doubt it will be as high as 50-70 euro if they want people to accept it.
    I was at the fly fair today too and while a lot of guys were talking about it, most seemed to be of the opinion that if the money is ring-fenced and put back into projects that benefit fish stocks/angling that they would be ok with it. Like the way the conservation stamp works with the salmon licence - the money is ring fenced and spent on projects on salmon rivers.


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    #10
    madred006
    Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭madred006


    Zzippy wrote: »
    AFAIK this will have to be introduced via primary legislation. There is a new fisheries bill which will be published next year, at this stage only the heads of bill have been drawn up and the detail is being worked on. Its a good way away yet, so talk of January is a bit ridiculous. Maybe the following January. And I doubt it will be as high as 50-70 euro if they want people to accept it.
    I was at the fly fair today too and while a lot of guys were talking about it, most seemed to be of the opinion that if the money is ring-fenced and put back into projects that benefit fish stocks/angling that they would be ok with it. Like the way the conservation stamp works with the salmon licence - the money is ring fenced and spent on projects on salmon rivers.

    IMO Ringfenced is a word that can be interperated many ways and I wouldn't have a problem if this were the case and the clubs were given some of the money to reinvest as it were in their local water . But will clubs suffer as a result of the levy , most clubs are down on members this year , some more than others and if a levy is introduced will it further deter people from joining local clubs , and just pay the levy . As it is there are many out there who think it's their right to fish and no licence is required ,and truth be told they probably don't on some water , it's goodwill that many clubs are based on.


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    #11
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    In addition, what could be ringfenced to improve the lot of pike or shore anglers who are not involved with any clubs? Will a family in summer pay a levy to take the kids after a few mackerel maybe twice while on holidays?


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    #12
    jkchambers
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭jkchambers


    I have posted several times on this before. Last Tuesday I attended a meeting on behalf of the Irish Federation of Pike Angling Clubs (IFPAC) with the Minister and IFI on the proposed new consolidated fisheries bill. There will be a lot of legislation changes and one will probably be the introduction of a compulsory angler registration/charge. I cannot comment on other federations but IFPAC have kept our affiliated clubs up to date and have held 2 meetings of our clubs on the issue. We are sending out another club newsletter on Monday.
    The heads of bill will go before the Government in December. We will be meeting the Minister again in January to go through it. The Minister has said that he will hold more public consultation meetings around the country. There is no chance of the bill becoming law for at least 6 months plus and any angler charge would probable come in in 2015.
    It looks like the salmon licence and the Midland permit will go and a new charge will cover fishing for all species. I would expect the charge to be around €40 with a reduced rate for young/old and unwaged. The funds raised will be 100% ringfenced and we expect that there will be separate funds for pike, trout, coarse etc. Anglers reps would be on supervising committees. Funds would be spent on development, protection (angler reserve force) youth angling promotion etc.
    There is a concern that this angler charge may result in reduced membership for clubs. This may possibly happen in the initial stages. Clubs will be able to get development grants to improve their waters and this may attract more members to join.


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    #13
    madred006
    Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭madred006


    jkchambers wrote: »
    I have posted several times on this before. Last Tuesday I attended a meeting on behalf of the Irish Federation of Pike Angling Clubs (IFPAC) with the Minister and IFI on the proposed new consolidated fisheries bill. There will be a lot of legislation changes and one will probably be the introduction of a compulsory angler registration/charge. I cannot comment on other federations but IFPAC have kept our affiliated clubs up to date and have held 2 meetings of our clubs on the issue. We are sending out another club newsletter on Monday.
    The heads of bill will go before the Government in December. We will be meeting the Minister again in January to go through it. The Minister has said that he will hold more public consultation meetings around the country. There is no chance of the bill becoming law for at least 6 months plus and any angler charge would probable come in in 2015.
    It looks like the salmon licence and the Midland permit will go and a new charge will cover fishing for all species. I would expect the charge to be around €40 with a reduced rate for young/old and unwaged. The funds raised will be 100% ringfenced and we expect that there will be separate funds for pike, trout, coarse etc. Anglers reps would be on supervising committees. Funds would be spent on development, protection (angler reserve force) youth angling promotion etc.
    There is a concern that this angler charge may result in reduced membership for clubs. This may possibly happen in the initial stages. Clubs will be able to get development grants to improve their waters and this may attract more members to join.

    Firstly thanks for the update , think that if the salmon licence was to go the majority of lads probably wouldn't mind paying 40 - 50 euro charge IMO , of course you will have some who won't and that will always be the case .
    Secondly if the money was Ringfenced it would be great if it was shared equally to the different clubs to do essential maintenance work and stream enhancement as is badly needed on certain rivers , and not apportioned to tourist hotspots and bigger areas .
    Also like the previous poster said there will have to be some lee way for people who go on holidays and buy a few cheap set ups to fish for mackerel and the likes .But I fear that if the midland licence goes you would see Sheelin Owl and Ennell getting a greater share of the spoils and thus leaving small clubs to struggle with scraps and also a shortfall in revenue


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    #14
    jkchambers
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭jkchambers


    I wouldnt see it shared equally between clubs but given out on a grant basis for approved projects. If say 50% of anglers paid in there would be enough to cover all projects clubs could come up with. Non club anglers may be more reluctant to pay but it should be good for progressive clubs who want to properly develop and protect their waters


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    #15
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    You seem to assume all anglers are in, or have local access to clubs. Yes, we for example have a Trout and a salmon club locally, but there's no club for pike or shore anglers. These anglers just go about their business as best they can with the facilities locally. What is ringfenced for these licence payers? Talk of clubs represented or federations is all very fine when anglers have such luxuries. Do people in areas without clubs end up paying for others in more angling rich areas to benefit? I don't mean to sound negative but just trying to see why some anglers will feel hard done by in this.


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    #16
    rpmcmurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭rpmcmurphy


    jkchambers wrote: »
    Funds would be spent on development, protection (angler reserve force)

    Can you elaborate on your understanding of a reserve force John? Would it be a similar scheme to the Garda reserve? Would these reserves accompany Fishery officers while performing their duties?


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    #17
    jkchambers
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭jkchambers


    Kaliyah Stocky Self-esteem wrote: »
    You seem to assume all anglers are in, or have local access to clubs. Yes, we for example have a Trout and a salmon club locally, but there's no club for pike or shore anglers. These anglers just go about their business as best they can with the facilities locally. What is ringfenced for these licence payers? Talk of clubs represented or federations is all very fine when anglers have such luxuries. Do people in areas without clubs end up paying for others in more angling rich areas to benefit? I don't mean to sound negative but just trying to see why some anglers will feel hard done by in this.

    I did not assume that at all. I did mention that non club anglers may be more reluctant to pay. In IFPAC we are more concerned about protection and youth than development as pike thrive on neglected waters. We are trying to get more clubs established around the country and will give every assistance to anglers trying to set up a club


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    #18
    madred006
    Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭madred006


    jkchambers wrote: »
    I wouldnt see it shared equally between clubs but given out on a grant basis for approved projects. If say 50% of anglers paid in there would be enough to cover all projects clubs could come up with. Non club anglers may be more reluctant to pay but it should be good for progressive clubs who want to properly develop and protect their waters

    This is where the fun begins then , what will the criteria be for getting grants accepted ,and a small club will have no chance against the bigger ones , ie grant to carry out stream work on Sheelin or stream work on barrow , Sheelin will win every time . And the smaller clubs will cease to exist after a year or two .


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    #19
    jkchambers
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭jkchambers


    rpmcmurphy wrote: »
    Can you elaborate on your understanding of a reserve force John? Would it be a similar scheme to the Garda reserve? Would these reserves accompany Fishery officers while performing their duties?

    This is all still being developed. The current section 294 waterkeeper system has had its day. What is now being looked at is an angler reserve force which will be appointed, trained and monitored by Inland Fisheries Ireland. These trained and maybe uniformed anglers would work closely with IFI staff. As I wrote above the proposal is at drawing board stage.


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    #20
    madred006
    Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭madred006


    I have funny feeling and people might laugh but this is a stepping stone to bigger charges and IMO they will impose further charges down the line like boat licence and engine certs . Watch this space . As for reserve force why would you want to do a job on voluntary basis when person beside you has big wage and benifits like sick pay etc .Full time jobs are what's needed or even temporary ones with some security involved if things did go wrong.


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    #21
    jkchambers
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭jkchambers


    madred006 wrote: »
    This is where the fun begins then , what will the criteria be for getting grants accepted ,and a small club will have no chance against the bigger ones , ie grant to carry out stream work on Sheelin or stream work on barrow , Sheelin will win every time . And the smaller clubs will cease to exist after a year or two .
    The whole thing is still being developed. There will be no question of bigger clubs getting their way. Recently IFI made 50 grand available under the Midland Fund and clubs in the permit areas on Suck , Inny, Brosna etc could apply and that included the clubs on Sheelin, Derravaragh etc. A small pike club on the Inny, the Inny Legan Anglers club, got the biggest grant to erect footbridges and stiles along several miles of the Inny. They got over 10 grand.


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    #22
    madred006
    Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭madred006


    jkchambers wrote: »
    The whole thing is still being developed. There will be no question of bigger clubs getting their way. Recently IFI made 50 grand available under the Midland Fund and clubs in the permit areas on Suck , Inny, Brosna etc could apply and that included the clubs on Sheelin, Derravaragh etc. A small pike club on the Inny, the Inny Legan Anglers club, got the biggest grant to erect footbridges and stiles along several miles of the Inny. They got over 10 grand.

    That's great but not been bad or anything that was then and as you say it's only in draft stage . However what will happen to those who don't pay and have never paid for anything , there are no resources to police the rivers at the moment.


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    #23
    rpmcmurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭rpmcmurphy


    madred006 wrote: »
    I have funny feeling and people might laugh but this is a stepping stone to bigger charges and IMO they will impose further charges down the line like boat licence and engine certs . Watch this space . As for reserve force why would you want to do a job on voluntary basis when person beside you has big wage and benifits like sick pay etc .Full time jobs are what's needed or even temporary ones with some security involved if things did go wrong.

    I agree madred006. Why would someone want to carry out duties for nothing. Fisheries protection, i would imagine, can be at times a hostile profession. Surely an investment towards full-time staff would be the way forward. I know of fishery protection officers who have worked several successive fixed-term contracts on an annual basis with no prospect of full time work looming. Surely a reserve force operating for free would undermine individuals such as these.

    In my opinion one of the main flaws of the S294 Waterkeepers system was over zealous individuals drunk on the power of their appointment. Pay peanuts and you get monkeys. Don't even offer a single peanut and you get...........


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    #24
    jkchambers
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭jkchambers


    madred006 wrote: »
    That's great but not been bad or anything that was then and as you say it's only in draft stage . However what will happen to those who don't pay and have never paid for anything , there are no resources to police the rivers at the moment.
    That grant for the Inny Anglers was only a few months ago.
    There are around 700 to 900 anglers in the country who have been appointed waterkeepers under section 294. There are lots of anglers who want to help protect our fisheries. IFI will not be allowed appoint new staff or replace retiring staff. Us anglers have to step up and fill the gap. I would see some of the angler charge money being spent on training volunteers to become part of the angler reserve force. They would patrol and complete report sheets and get reimbursed for fuel. It could be that part of their duties would involve checking anglers to make sure that they have contributed. I would imagine that anyone caught fishing without having paid would get an on the spot fine.
    Either we are going to be serious about protecting and developing our waters or we throw our hat at it and let the poachers, polluters etc have their way. If we want the former we all have to put our hands in our pockets like they do everywhere else.


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    #25
    madred006
    Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭madred006


    jkchambers wrote: »
    That grant for the Inny Anglers was only a few months ago.
    There are around 700 to 900 anglers in the country who have been appointed waterkeepers under section 294. There are lots of anglers who want to help protect our fisheries. IFI will not be allowed appoint new staff or replace retiring staff. Us anglers have to step up and fill the gap. I would see some of the angler charge money being spent on training volunteers to become part of the angler reserve force. They would patrol and complete report sheets and get reimbursed for fuel. It could be that part of their duties would involve checking anglers to make sure that they have contributed. I would imagine that anyone caught fishing without having paid would get an on the spot fine.
    Either we are going to be serious about protecting and developing our waters or we throw our hat at it and let the poachers, polluters etc have their way. If we want the former we all have to put our hands in our pockets like they do everywhere else.

    While I agree with what you say it does not make sense to expect ordinary anglers to fill in the gaps exposed by ifi . We have to two water keepers appointed in our club we give them 250 a year for expenses petrol and phone credit which I believe they entitled to . However this year one of them got severly abused to the point that the guards were called but didn't show up , and only for 3 anglers that came to his aid he was going to be threw in river . This compared to some one who has state job with pension and sick pay if things do go wrong is a no brainier . Fishery officers were rang about poaching on ennel and response was they haven't petrol for the boat .
    Angling for me is a leisure pursuit that I greatly enjoy and I don't see why I should have to confront anyone about permits or the likes . IMO we have too many agencies in this country and some are just intrested in competitions and the likes , instead of coming together and forming one strong body with people like jk to represent the pike anglers and come to some arrangement that benifits all anglers .


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    #26
    Geomy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    I remember the last rod licence fiasco, and they can still shove it...

    Hill walker's will be hit next. ...


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    #27
    flyfish anywhere
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭flyfish anywhere


    Geomy wrote: »
    I remember the last rod licence fiasco, and they can still shove it...

    Hill walker's will be hit next. ...

    It didnt go down too well last time alright!

    rodlicence89.jpg


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    #28
    madred006
    Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭madred006


    flyfish anywhere wrote: »
    It didnt go down too well last time alright!

    rodlicence89.jpg

    It could be coming again IMO .


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    #29
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Interesting - "no rod licence - no fish farms - no pollution". Two of those things have gotten worse since then, I wonder if anglers were more vocal about fish farms and pollution back then would our rivers and fish stocks be in a better state now?


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    #30
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Interesting - "no rod licence - no fish farms - no pollution". Two of those things have gotten worse since then, I wonder if anglers were more vocal about fish farms and pollution back then would our rivers and fish stocks be in a better state now?

    It was a political football at the time, ironically it's the opposition at the time Fine Gael and labour who are now going to bring it in. I wonder will their supporters be so anti rod licence this time! It's just another tax and will go into the big black hole, a few token projects and then more taxes ands legislation and then a ban on fishing altogether, smell the coffee folks!


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    #31
    jkchambers
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭jkchambers


    There are a couple of major differences between 1988 and now
    1. This time all the federations apart from TAFI are requesting it and the Minister is only acting on this. TAFI want a voluntary contribution system. We had that in the Co-ops after the rod licence dispute and anglers proved then that only a handful were prepared to actually make a small contribution.
    2. In 1988 when Minister Daly brought in the rod licence he immediately reduced the State allocation to the fisheries boards by the amount he thought it would raise. I think it was Ir£600,000
    3. This time the funds raised will be 100% ringfenced for angling development, protection and youth activities and anglers will have a major say over the allocation of these funds.
    4. The Minister has already held 5 public meetings around the country seeking anglers views on what should go in the new fisheries consolidated act. When we have draft legislation in January he said that he is willing to go around the country to listen to anglers views again. We never had consultation on fisheries legislation like this before.


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