Secularist Education Advocating Banning Religion?

J C · 02-09-2013 10:24pm #1

swampgas wrote: »

Totally agree.

Here I disagree. I think the state school system should be secular, and I think participation should be mandatory. I think allowing private schools to run their own self-segregating enclaves is bad for the children who attend them and bad for society in general.

Thank you for your frankness about where this is all going ... if Secularists, like you, have their way ...
... mandatory indoctination of all children into the tenets of Secular Humanism ... with no room for Christianity!!!

You couldn't make this stuff up ... and if you did, nobody would believe you.
... but here it is in print on the A & A.

PopePalpatine · 02-09-2013 10:31pm

J C, stop talking bullshit. Previous posters supporting a secular school system have no problem with a class which teaches the beliefs of various religions, including Christianity. I regret every time I click [View Post] for your posts.

Delirium · 02-09-2013 10:35pm

J C wrote: »

Thank you for your frankness about where this is all going ... if Secularists have their way ...
... mandatory indoctination of all children into the tenets of Secular Humanism ... with no room for Christianity!!!

You couldn't make this stuff up ... and if you did nobody would believe you.
... but here it is in print on the A & A.

"no room for Christianity"? How can you still not understand what secularism is after all this time?

J C · 02-09-2013 10:38pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

J C, stop talking bullshit. Previous posters supporting a secular school system have no problem with a class which teaches the beliefs of various religions, including Christianity. I regret every time I click [View Post] for your posts.

Swampgas seems to disagree with you on this ... and I think his frankness is quite refreshing.

Delirium · 02-09-2013 10:40pm

J C wrote: »

Thank you for your frankness about where this is all going ... if Secularists have their way ...
... mandatory indoctination of all children into the tenets of Secular Humanism ... with no room for Christianity!!!

You couldn't make this stuff up ... and if you did nobody would believe you.
... but here it is in print on the A & A.

how exactly is teaching kids about the major religions the same as "no room for Christianity"?

PopePalpatine · 02-09-2013 10:42pm

wat.

What is your idea of "tenets of secular humanism"? And what's this moronic statement about "no room for Christianity!!!"? Most of those who have supported secularising our country's schools have supported the idea of teaching about the various beliefs of the world's religions - i.e., Buddhists believe A, Christians believe B, Hindus believe C etc.

J C · 02-09-2013 10:46pm

koth wrote: »

"no room for Christianity"? How can you still not understand what secularism is after all this time?

I am just looking at what is being said by some of secularists on this forum.
Could I say that you may be 'over-playing your hands' slightly when it comes to School Governance.
To tell over 90% of the population that you are going to forcibly indoctinate their children into the beliefs of less than 1% of the population whilst showing total disrespect for the beliefs of the 90% could be called 'overplaying ones hand' ... I think ... but I could be wrong.

Any reassurance that Christianity will be respected if secularism controls our schools isn't supported by much evidence of respect for the beliefs of Christianity on this (largely Secular) forum. Please point out any examples of respect for the beliefs of Christianity on this forum, if I am wrong about this contention.
... or is it the case perhaps, that the views expressed on this forum aren't typical of Irish secularism in general?

By the way it is OK to show disrespect for something that you disrespect ... but if you do ... then don't be surprised if the people whose beliefs you disrespect don't allow you to educate their children.

Clockwork Owl · 02-09-2013 10:49pm

Pretty sure the whole 'All secularists want to ban religion completely!!!' logic has been refuted numerous times in the past as little more than panic-mongering, hysterical nonsense. But OK.

PopePalpatine · 02-09-2013 11:03pm

J C wrote: »

Swampgas seems to disagree with you on this ... and I think his frankness is quite refreshing.

swampgas wrote: »

I think the state school system should be secular, and I think participation should be mandatory. I think allowing private schools to run their own self-segregating enclaves is bad for the children who attend them and bad for society in general.

He didn't explicitly state that all mention of religion should be banned from schools. Your posts make the Daily Mail look like the paragon of reason.

Delirium · 02-09-2013 11:09pm

J C wrote: »

I am just looking at what is being said by secularists on this forum.
Could I say that you may be 'over-playing your hands' slightly when it comes to School Governance.
To tell over 90% of the population that you are going to forcibly indoctinate their children into the beliefs of less than 1% of the population whilst showing total disrespect for the beliefs of the 90% could be called 'overplaying ones hand' ... I think ... but I could be wrong.

no one has suggested anything of the sort. Must it always descend to misrepresentation of what secularism is?

J C · 02-09-2013 11:22pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

He didn't explicitly state that all mention of religion should be banned from schools. Your posts make the Daily Mail look like the paragon of reason.

He said "I think the state school system should be secular, and I think participation should be mandatory".
The implications of this are quite clear and quite stark. There should be a secular school system and participation in the system should be mandatory.
There is no 'wriggle room' here for any interpretation ... except what it patently says ... that all children must attend Secular Schools - and no other types of school should be allowed.
... and for the removal of any doubt swampgas justified this course of action, by saying " I think allowing private schools to run their own self-segregating enclaves is bad for the children who attend them and bad for society in general".

J C · 02-09-2013 11:34pm

koth wrote: »

how exactly is teaching kids about the major religions the same as "no room for Christianity"?

It all depends on what you are "teaching kids about the major religions".
The way that theistic beliefs are held up to ridicule on this forum doesn't auger well for respect to be shown to theistic beliefs in schools run by people with some of the anti-theist views expressed on this forum.

Some may say that religious beliefs should be held up to ridicule ... and I have no difficulty with this point of view per se ... but I don't want somebody who holds it taking my place in school to educate my children ... and I don't think that many of my fellow Christians would want it either.

Sonics2k · 02-09-2013 11:37pm

Not teaching a single 'true' religion in an educational establishment does not in any way impact the child's ability to be taught about their faith by their families or their church. Most secularists don't believe in imposing non-religion on anyone. They simply believe that a child's specific religious beliefs are not the business of their school, thus freeing up more school time to learn things less easily taught or accessed elsewhere.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if a parent can't or won't find the time and effort to A.) discuss religion with their child or B.) bring them to church or after-school club where someone else will discuss it with them, I have trouble believing that raising a child under X faith is genuinely that important to them.

Bannasidhe · 02-09-2013 11:39pm

TheChizler wrote: »

This is clearly your area Ban, I vote you take over the boundary mapping responsibilities

No. Just No.

J C · 02-09-2013 11:49pm

Clockwork Owl wrote: »

Pretty sure the whole 'All secularists want to ban religion completely!!!' logic has been refuted numerous times in the past as little more than panic-mongering, hysterical nonsense. But OK.

I never said that 'All secularists want to ban religion completely!!!'
Some liberal Secularists are quite tolerant of religious belief and many others don't want to ban religion completely, if for no other reason than this has been tried in the past and it failed miserably.
Other Secularists do seem to want to eradicate religion by whatever legal means are available ... and therein lies the rub for Christians faced with this reality.

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2013 12:01am

J C wrote: »

I never said that 'All secularists want to ban religion completely!!!'
Some liberal Secularists are quite tolerant of religious belief and many others don't want to ban religion completely, if for no other reason than this has been tried in the past and it failed miserably.
Other Secularists do seem to want to eradicate religion by whatever legal means are available ... and therein lies the rub for Christians faced with this reality.

It may surprise you to learn that there are Christian who passionately believe in separation of church and State and that schools should be secular.
But then that would be to admit that all Christians do not hold the same views - no more than atheists do.
If all Christians agreed on everything - there would be only one Christian denomination rather than the estimated 41,000 there actually are.

41,000 - that's a lot of division.

J C · 03-09-2013 12:02am

Sonics2k wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again - if a parent can't or won't find the time and effort to A.) discuss religion with their child or B.) bring them to church or after-school club where someone else will discuss it with them, I have trouble believing that raising a child under X faith is genuinely that important to them.

That's a bit like saying that if a parent can't or won't find the time and effort to discuss maths with their child ... or pay for grinds in maths for them, they don't genuinely believe that maths is important.
The reality is that parents lead busy lives ... and they pay for (and rely on) schools to do this work for them.
... and if a school suddenly starts telling children that maths is no longer important (or other parents find maths objectionable or a 'pain in the head') and the school follows through with the banning of maths from the classroom ... then parents might not accept the idea that they should teach maths to their children at home themselves.
Ditto with religious education.

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2013 12:11am

J C wrote: »

That's a bit like saying that if a parent can't of won't find the time and effort to discuss maths with their child ... or pay for grinds in maths for them, they don't genuinely believe that maths is important.
The reality is that parents lead busy lives ... and they pay for (and rely on) schools to do this work for them.
... and if a school suddenly starts telling children that maths is no longer important (or other parents find maths objectionable or a 'pain in the head') and the school follows through with the banning of maths from the classroom ... then parents might not accept the idea that they should teach maths to their children at home themselves.
Ditto with religious education.

I'm sorry but that is a ridiculous comparison. Maths are needed. Trying to get through life without being numerate would be practically impossible. It is perfectly possibly to love a long and happy life without religion.

If I wanted my son to do non-academic activities I paid for them and made the time. I worked full-time. I was busy yet my son managed show jumping, tennis, ice hockey, rugby...

If religion is so important - time will be found. Or are you afraid that if religious instruction is left to parents then it's all over as most just won't bother - just like they don't bother attending church except for baptisms, weddings and funerals?

J C · 03-09-2013 12:13am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It may surprise you to learn that there are Christian who passionately believe in separation of church and State and that schools should be secular.
But then that would be to admit that all Christians do not hold the same views - no more than atheists do.
If all Christians agreed on everything - there would be only one Christian denomination rather than the estimated 41,000 there actually are.

41,000 - that's a lot of division.

I also believe in the separation of belief and state.
... but a state mandating Secular Schools for everyone is favouring the beliefs of Secular Humanism ... and actively imposing them on everyone else who don't believe in them.

I also believe in freedom of religion ... but this is not the same thing as freedom from religion i.e the eradication of religion from the public sphere.
All citizens should be treated equally and their beliefs (provided they aren't illegal) should be equally respected.

Sonics2k · 03-09-2013 12:21am

J C wrote: »

That's a bit like saying that if a parent can't of won't find the time and effort to discuss maths with their child ... or pay for grinds in maths for them, they don't genuinely believe that maths is important.
The reality is that parents lead busy lives ... and they pay for (and rely on) schools to do this work for them.
... and if a school suddenly starts telling children that maths is no longer important (or other parents find maths objectionable or a 'pain in the head') and the school follows through with the banning of maths from the classroom ... then parents might not accept the idea that they should teach maths to their children at home themselves.
Ditto with religious education.

First of all, silly comparison. Maths is virtually essential in any given job, ranging from a Doctor to someone working in a sales job.
And yes, parents do lead busy lives. The problem lies in that parents should not expect the State to pay and teach children about religion.

We'll assume the state will focus on Christianity first of all. In order to not offend a certain group of Christian you'd have to focus on all the various sects, so you have Catholicism, Protestants, Jehovahs, Mormons, Evangelicals and so so many more.

But of course Ireland is a country with a booming foreign population, so now you have to include all forms of Judaism, Islam, Hinduim, Buddhism, and even bloody Scientology!

Most (logial minded) secularists have no problem with the individual having faith or being religious, by all means, pray to your hearts content.
But it is extremely narrow-minded, selfish and damn near impossible to expect the State to teach children religion.

If it's so important to you, then you or your Church should teach it.

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2013 12:25am

J C wrote: »

I also believe in the separation of belief and state.
... but a state mandating Secular Schools for everyone is favouring the beliefs of Secular Humanism ... and actively imposing them on everyone else who doesn't believe in them.

As opposed to the current system where one religion among many is favoured...and actively imposing that on everyone else?

Would you have the same amount of time devoted to each and every religion and each one taught as if it were the one true religion?

That would be equal now wouldn't it - but then there would be no time for maths or reading or P.E. or science or language ... there would be some mighty confused children and a time table that would say 9am - 10 am Judiasm and the wait for the Messiah. 10 - 11 am The is only one God and Allah is his name. short break. 11:15 -12:00 - Female Hindu Gods. 12pm - 1 pm Jesus wants me for a sunbeam - Anglicism. lunch. 2pm-3pm Papal Infallability and True Doctrine.
Homework : Shinto - trace your ancestors and worship them and Church of the Latter Day Saints - polygamy: Discuss.

Oh yes - that sounds much better.

I also believe in the freedom of religion ... but this is not the same thing as freedom from religion i.e the eradication of religion from the public sphere.
All citizens should be treated equally and their beliefs (provided they aren't illegal) should be equally respected.

All citizens are not treated equally when all citizens are subject to an educational system that does not cater for all citizens.

J C · 03-09-2013 12:27am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is a ridiculous comparison. Maths are needed. Trying to get through life without being numerate would be practically impossible. It is perfectly possibly to love a long and happy life without religion.

That's your point of view and you're quite entitled to hold it ... but you are not entitled to impose it on people who don't hold it.
Many people get through life very nicely without ever needing Differential Calculus ... and religion is very important to many people as a central part of their daily lives.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If I wanted my son to do non-academic activities I paid for them and made the time. I worked full-time. I was busy yet my son managed show jumping, tennis, ice hockey, rugby...

Thats fine ... but all schools already have a very good Physical Education programme ... and if I were to suggest that it should be shut down because parents who thought it was important would pay for extracurricular PE (like you manged to do) ... I'd be rightly taken to task for such a pronouncement

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If religion is so important - time will be found. Or are you afraid that if religious instruction is left to parents then it's all over as most just won't bother - just like they don't bother attending church except for baptisms, weddings and funerals?

There are two issues involved where attendance at secular schools becomes mandatory for everyone. The first issue is one of equity ... why should Christian parents have to pay for religious education, when Secularists have their wordview promoted for free in such schools.
The second issue is one of fairness ... why should Christian children be educated in the beliefs of Secularism, when Secular children aren't also educated in the beliefs of Christianity.
'Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander'.

Clockwork Owl · 03-09-2013 12:29am

J C wrote: »

That's a bit like saying that if a parent can't of won't find the time and effort to discuss maths with their child ... or pay for grinds in maths for them, they don't genuinely believe that maths is important.
The reality is that parents lead busy lives ... and they pay for (and rely on) schools to do this work for them.
... and if a school suddenly starts telling children that maths is no longer important (or other parents find maths objectionable or a 'pain in the head') and the school follows through with the banning of maths from the classroom ... then parents might not accept the idea that they should teach maths to their children at home themselves.

Except that maths is nothing at all like religious education in that analogy.

Firstly, religious education consists predominantly of storytelling and moral instruction: two things that most parents will be well equipped to provide. Teaching mathematics requires a certain aptitude for... Well, for teaching, and obviously for maths.

Secondly, there aren't hundreds of free, local and easily accessible maths learning institutions for children, available several times per week and staffed by teachers trained extensively to teach maths and only maths.

And I'll finish with the thirdly - that basic maths is a completely, unambiguously useful life skill. People don't 'believe' in maths. Being incapable of simple addition, subtraction and multiplication will have a very real and tangible negative effect on any child, whether they're Christian, Muslim, agnostic or Jedi. Being incapable of reciting the four Gospels means that a percentage of another percentage of the population believe you might suffer eternal damnation, but... Well, that's not awfully concrete in comparison.

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2013 12:34am

J C wrote: »

That's your point of view and you're quite entitled to hold it ... but you are not entitled to impose it on people who don't hold it.
Many people get through life very nicely without ever needing Differential Calculus ... and religion is very important to many people as a central part of their daily lives.

Thats fine ... but all schools already have a very good Physical Education programme ... and if I were to suggest that it should be shut down because parents who thought it was important would pay for extracurricular PE (because you manged to do so) ... I'd be rightly taken to task for such a pronouncement

There are two issues involved where attendance at secular schools become mandatory. The first issue is one of equity ... why should Christian parents have to pay for religious education, when Secularists have their wordview promoted for free in such schools.
The second issue is one of fairness ... why should Christian children be educated in the beliefs of Secularism, when Secular children aren't also educated in the beliefs of Christianity.
'Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander'.

'Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander'. Indeed. That is exactly the point we are making. All citizens fund our State schools so all our State schools should respect the religious beliefs - or lack thereof - of all our citizens. That is equality.

I also never argued that it be mandatory - just that State funded National Schools be truly multi-denominational and never, ever teach that one particular belief is the only true belief. I happen to believe that children should be taught about the various religions - I just don't happen to believe that they should be indoctrinated by a State funded education system in one particular religion.

Do you have a problem with that?

J C · 03-09-2013 12:45am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

All citizens are not treated equally when all citizens are subject to an educational system that does not cater for all citizens.

I said that all citizens should be treated equally and their beliefs (provided they aren't illegal) should be equally respected.
As a Creationist I find myself belonging to a minority belief (just like Secularists also belong to a minority belief in Ireland).
... so we do have something in common!!!:D

I don't expect the school where my children attend 'to turn itself inside out' just because I have decided to send my children there. I accept that my views will not be central within the school ... but I do expect (and I have found that it happens) that my beliefs (and those of my children) are respected within the school.

I have found that respect tends to breed respect ... and the reverse is also often the case.

Bannasidhe · 03-09-2013 12:48am

J C wrote: »

I said that all citizens should be treated equally and their beliefs (provided they aren't illegal) should be equally respected.
As a Creationist I find myself belonging to a minority belief (just like Secularists also belong to a minority belief in Ireland).
I don't expect the school where my children attend 'to turn itself inside out' just because I have decided to send my children there. I accept that my views will not be central within the school ... but I do expect (and I have found that it happens) that my beliefs (and those of my children) are respected within the school.

I have found that respect thends to breed respect ... and the reverse is also often the case.

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe equal time should be devoted to teaching all religions?

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2013 1:00am

J C wrote: »

I said that all citizens should be treated equally and their beliefs (provided they aren't illegal) should be equally respected.

Forcing religious indoctrination in schools on children who are not members of that religion is hardly respecting them. Opting out is rarely possible especially at primary level.

As a Creationist I find myself belonging to a minority belief (just like Secularists also belong to a minority belief in Ireland).

Secularism is not a belief. I'm sure this has been pointed out to you many times.

I don't expect the school where my children attend 'to turn itself inside out' just because I have decided to send my children there. I accept that my views will not be central within the school ... but I do expect (and I have found that it happens) that my beliefs (and those of my children) are respected within the school.

I can be certain that my beliefs won't be, though. How's that fair?

J C · 03-09-2013 1:02am

Clockwork Owl wrote: »

Except that maths is nothing at all like religious education in that analogy.

It depends on your beliefs ... if you believe that God exists and we will spend eternity with Him or without Him ... then Maths pales into insignificance in importance in comparison with Salvation.
Of course they also aren't exclusive of each other ... and both maths and religion can be taught.

Clockwork Owl wrote: »

Firstly, religious education consists predominantly of storytelling and moral instruction: two things that most parents will be well equipped to provide. Teaching mathematics requires a certain aptitude for... Well, for teaching, and obviously for maths.

Theology and faith studies are every bit as complex and technical as maths. If I wanted to be as dismissive of maths as you are of religious education, I could say that the maths that most people use in their everyday lives can be done in their heads or on a pocket calculator ... and parents can easily teach children how to do such basic arithmetic.

Clockwork Owl wrote: »

Secondly, there aren't hundreds of free, local and easily accessible maths learning institutions for children, available several times per week and staffed by teachers trained extensively to teach maths and only maths.

Grinds in Maths are just as freely available as churches and Sunday Schools.

Clockwork Owl wrote: »

And I'll finish with the thirdly - that basic maths is a completely, unambiguously useful life skill. People don't 'believe' in maths. Being incapable of simple addition, subtraction and multiplication will have a very real and tangible negative effect on any child, whether they're Christian, Muslim, agnostic or Jedi. Being incapable of reciting the four Gospels means that a percentage of another percentage of the population believe you might suffer eternal damnation, but... Well, that's not awfully concrete in comparison.

Maths and Salvation are important to most people in Ireland. They can both be taught if there is the will to do so ... and with a small amount of tolerance and respect between everybody involved.

J C · 03-09-2013 1:17am

ninja900 wrote: »

Forcing religious indoctrination in schools on children who are not members of that religion is hardly respecting them. Opting out is rarely possible especially at primary level.

I have no diffculty with my children being exposed to the beliefs of other faiths and none. I have no problem with somebody praying beside me or indeed reading extracts from Secular philosophy beside me.
My main problem is when they turn around and disrespect my beliefs ... or don't allow me to express them ... when I have respected and allowed them to express theirs.

ninja900 wrote: »

Secularism is not a belief. I'm sure this has been pointed out to you many times.

If its not a strongly held belief, like you say, why are some of the most strident of belief statements to be found on Secular Forums all over the internet.
Of course it is a strongly held worldview with a complete set of inter-locking beliefs.

ninja900 wrote: »

I can be certain that my beliefs won't be, though. How's that fair?

As if on cue ... you go and confirm that you do actually have deeply held (Secular) beliefs!!!
... and I don't agree that Secular beliefs aren't respected in schools currently

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2013 1:25am

No, secularism is not a belief. I shouldn't have to explain this yet again so I won't.

My viewpoint on secularism in society is a separate issue to my viewpoint on the existence or otherwise of gods.

When you have schools telling the children of atheist parents that the existence of god(s) is a fact, that is certainly not respecting their position on the question of belief.

I think you've long gone past the point of being obtuse now.

J C · 03-09-2013 1:28am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe equal time should be devoted to teaching all religions?

Quite frankly I don't ... schools should largely reflect the composition of the school community, when it comes to the time devoted to the teaching of different religions ... along with the basic beliefs of the major world religions (and none), even if they aren't all represented within the school community.

That's why, for example, I don't expect our local school to devote the same time to Creationism as they do to teaching other aspects of Christianity upon which every Christian is agreed upon.

Secularist Education Advocating Banning Religion?

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