GEM - Access to Funding Campaign 2013

diverboy83 · 10-06-2013 8:44pm #1

I decided to set up a new thread to cover this topic. There has been much discussion elsewhere on this forum with respect to funding and access to same for current and prospective GEM students in Ireland. With the downgrading of the BoI and UL GEM loans to fees only, access to sufficient funding for living expenses has become a make or break issue for many students. Anecdotal evidence from boards.ie and the Universities themselves indicates that increasing numbers of applicants either cannot take up their offer of a place, are faced with dropping out or are under extreme pressure during their course due to funding issues.

The HSE, the Medical Schools and the Government (Department of Health and the Department of Education) have a responsibility to ensure that the GEM programme can be accessed in a fair and equitable manner and does not become the preserve of the independently wealthy.

A lot of prospective GEM students may feel that these actions are too late. However, the programme is four years and any measures which are implemented would help lift the burden of financing. Additionally, this campaign is also for future GEM students; I believe that the GEM programme is one of the most significant advances in medical education in Ireland and its future is seriously under threat if the current funding crisis prevails.

Unfortunately, whatever measures are implemented, certainly at this moment in time, will have to be as cost-neutral as possible. One possible solution is for the HSE to provide a loan package to GEM students which would be repayable on terms similar to the UK and US packages i.e. no repayments until in employment and then graduated on gross salary. This would mean that the State would not be incurring a loss, would be ensuring that GEM applicants have access to sufficient funding and which would yield a return for the State (the banks make in excess of 30,000 per student over the lifetime of the loan) which would be re-invested in the loan scheme.

The purpose of this thread is that in order to get any traction on this at political level and among the medical schools, prospective and current GEM students need to be proactive. Any action in this area also needs to be done in a coordinated, strategic manner in order to exert maximum pressure and to get the relevant bodies to engage on this issue.

As a first step, the IMO AGM in April carried a motion to create a Student Craft Group (similar to the BMA Medical Student Committee). The IMO should therefore be the first point for lobbying as we would need to get them on side. Following on from this, we also need to get the Students' Unions of the Medical Schools on board as a group so that their interests are registered and that the bodies concerned understand that our argument extends to hundreds of GEM students also. The third strand of that action relates to engaging with the European Medical Students Association. Finally, the Deans of the Medical Schools should then be lobbied.

At a political level, as a group prospective and current GEMs should write to the Chair of the Select Sub-Committee on Health and the Chair of the Select Sub-Committee on Education and Skills. Individually, every prospective and current GEM should write to their local TD and Senator asking them to take the issue up with Ministers Reilly and Quinn.

These are my initial thoughts and would welcome views or additions.

I am prepared to draft a template for GEMs to use when contacting their local TDs and Senators. I am also prepared to contact the IMO, Medical School Unions and the Deans of the Medical Schools as well as the Select Sub-Committees. However, I am not comfortable speaking for GEMs en masse without some sort of an imprimatur. Therefore, I've set up a poll to see how many people favour these sort of actions. If enough people sign up, then I'll start drafting and will post drafts up here for views before issuing. Alternatively, I can also set up a petition on change.org to collect signatures.

Hypnos · 10-06-2013 11:20pm

I'd hate to sound jaded but don't start a petition on change.org. I saw petitions with over 200k signatures and nothing happened. I don't think petitions are taken seriously unless they threaten the position of a politician. Then only will they look at it. I guess this attempt is worth a shot so lets see what happens.

Billydolan · 11-06-2013 8:18pm

For what it's worth I've investigated back to education allowance via my local td, even his office was basically told its not available for this program. Legislation is currently under review. Doubtfully any good to us. Half jokingly thought of this a while back but big pharma could surely afford a few thousand a year to sponsor a doctor through med school, would clearly be the antithesis to the doctor I want to be then though.

Billydolan · 11-06-2013 8:24pm

...also I'm clearly in full support of this, and will be more than happy to email whoever...those templates would be handy!

Jammyc · 11-06-2013 10:27pm

I am in support, however, I sent detailed letters and emails to all of my local TD's, our Minister for Health and our Minister for Education, the IMO and god knows who else.

What I received was a politely worded "PFO you spoilt grad". Needless to say my hope for any such campaign is low BUT I am very very willing to be proven wrong!

pc11 · 12-06-2013 11:31am

Jammyc wrote: »

I am in support, however, I sent detailed letters and emails to all of my local TD's, our Minister for Health and our Minister for Education, the IMO and god knows who else.

What I received was a politely worded "PFO you spoilt grad". Needless to say my hope for any such campaign is low BUT I am very very willing to be proven wrong!

Could you paste in some of their responses? It might help to prepare a strategy.

The 'spoilt grad' bit I presume largely refers to having had free fees, which is one of the reasons given why the fees for GEM are so high.

What's ironic/perverse is that some of us graduated before free fees came in and never had the benefit of them. I would love if there was some acknowledgement of this. I personally had to take out a bank loan at full commercial rates to pay my fees to finish my degree and I also had to take a year out and work illegally in the US to save money.

diverboy83 · 12-06-2013 3:12pm

Right, here is the first template. It's important that folk contact all their local TDs and specify that they are constituents. It is also important that the TDs are asked to contact Ministers Quinn and Reilly directly for a reply.

I'm investigating press interest following on from Fred English' letter to the IT and the piece on NCHDs on Drivetime this week.

diverboy83 · 13-06-2013 9:31pm

Just an update - I've written to the Deans of the Medical Schools, the Chairs of the Med Socs, the IMO and the IUMC. Any replies I receive I will post up here so folk know what the positions are. If anyone gets any replies from their TDs, they should upload them here too.

Billydolan · 14-06-2013 5:01pm

Just a thought, and something ill be mentioning to my local td. Is in the event of an affordable funding scheme being brought on in the future, that it be backdated so people from this year and last year could swap over and make some savings on interest etc

Jammyc · 15-06-2013 12:37am

pc11 wrote: »

Could you paste in some of their responses? It might help to prepare a strategy.

The 'spoilt grad' bit I presume largely refers to having had free fees, which is one of the reasons given why the fees for GEM are so high.

What's ironic/perverse is that some of us graduated before free fees came in and never had the benefit of them. I would love if there was some acknowledgement of this. I personally had to take out a bank loan at full commercial rates to pay my fees to finish my degree and I also had to take a year out and work illegally in the US to save money.

Apologies, I've been offline for a few days. I'll dig out the letters tomorrow and put up their responses.

Best of luck with the campaign.

diverboy83 · 17-06-2013 4:01pm

Another update - very positive reaction from the press to this; something might run on it soon.

letsdothis · 18-06-2013 12:47am

Is there no national med students association that could lead this campaign? Or might it be worthwhile contacting the medical societies in the various colleges to get them on board?

diverboy83 · 18-06-2013 7:56am

No, there is no national association of medical students (though there is a European one). I already contacted all the Chairs of the Med Socs; no response as of yet. When the IMO convenes its new Student Craft Group, that would be the best bet as it would be comprised of representatives from the student bodies of the med schools. However, it was only voted upon there at the beginning of June, so I envisage that it will take some time to set up (the IMO statute has to be amended etc etc).

letsdothis · 18-06-2013 9:43am

diverboy83 wrote: »

No, there is no national association of medical students (though there is a European one). I already contacted all the Chairs of the Med Socs; no response as of yet. When the IMO convenes its new Student Craft Group, that would be the best bet as it would be comprised of representatives from the student bodies of the med schools. However, it was only voted upon there at the beginning of June, so I envisage that it will take some time to set up (the IMO statute has to be amended etc etc).

Any response or interest from them yet? Has anyone tried contacting their local TD and asking them to put down a PQ to Ruairi Quinn? I know its been done before but it needs following up to keep it on the agenda. Or maybe it shoud be put to Michael Noonan when really it concers access to credit in state owned banks like AIB. Everybody else could contact their local TDs then also just before the PQ is answered to build the awareness on it. Who knows, someone might take an interest in it. You never know which TD might have a child, relative, friend or constituent that has been talking to them about this same issue and when it's highlighted at a national level, it might encourage them to take it up.

I really do think, however, that the medical schools, this new IMO craft groups and the students themselves are going to have to work to get this issue high on the agenda.

pc11 · 18-06-2013 10:52am

letsdothis wrote: »

Any response or interest from them yet? Has anyone tried contacting their local TD and asking them to put down a PQ to Ruairi Quinn? I know its been done before but it needs following up to keep it on the agenda. Or maybe it shoud be put to Michael Noonan when really it concers access to credit in state owned banks like AIB. Everybody else could contact their local TDs then also just before the PQ is answered to build the awareness on it. Who knows, someone might take an interest in it. You never know which TD might have a child, relative, friend or constituent that has been talking to them about this same issue and when it's highlighted at a national level, it might encourage them to take it up.

I really do think, however, that the medical schools, this new IMO craft groups and the students themselves are going to have to work to get this issue high on the agenda.

Anyone here in Dublin North-Central? I've been thinking of going to the local TDs, maybe we could team up?

diverboy83 · 18-06-2013 1:07pm

letsdothis wrote: »

Any response or interest from them yet? Has anyone tried contacting their local TD and asking them to put down a PQ to Ruairi Quinn? I know its been done before but it needs following up to keep it on the agenda. Or maybe it shoud be put to Michael Noonan when really it concers access to credit in state owned banks like AIB. Everybody else could contact their local TDs then also just before the PQ is answered to build the awareness on it. Who knows, someone might take an interest in it. You never know which TD might have a child, relative, friend or constituent that has been talking to them about this same issue and when it's highlighted at a national level, it might encourage them to take it up.

I really do think, however, that the medical schools, this new IMO craft groups and the students themselves are going to have to work to get this issue high on the agenda.

If anyone is a constituent of a member of the Oireachtas Committees on Education and Health, they should email those to get them to raise the issue at Committee level as well as raising it via a PQ or rep. Members of the Committees can be found at:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/oireachtasbusiness/committees_list/educationandsocialprotection/members/

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/oireachtasbusiness/committees_list/health-and-children/members/

I've emailed my local TDs; both are on these Committees.

letsdothis is right though - the entire thing has to be led by prospective and current students as well as representative bodies.

pc11 · 18-06-2013 2:35pm

diverboy83 wrote: »

If anyone is a constituent of a member of the Oireachtas Committees on Education and Health, they should email those to get them to raise the issue at Committee level as well as raising it via a PQ or rep. Members of the Committees can be found at:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/oireachtasbusiness/committees_list/educationandsocialprotection/members/

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/oireachtasbusiness/committees_list/health-and-children/members/

I've emailed my local TDs; both are on these Committees.

letsdothis is right though - the entire thing has to be led by prospective and current students as well as representative bodies.

One of those is my TD. I have emailed him now, based on your template.

I also raised the issue of the working hours for junior doctors.

EDIT: I received a response within an hour:

Hi Paul

Aodhán has asked Ruairi Quinn for a response to your query.

The office will be in touch when we receive that response and can discuss his comments further then.

Regards

Rory Geraghty
Parliamentary Assistant

diverboy83 · 18-06-2013 3:46pm

Great. The more TDs on those committees that are aware of this issue and who will raise it, the more likely it is that the Departments of Health and Education will have to take a look at it.

Your idea on lobbying the HEA (from the other thread) is another good idea.

Jammyc · 19-06-2013 2:13pm

Hi guys,

Looking through my emails on this topic, I found replies I got via my TD from Minister Ruari Quinn, when asked about the GEM program directly by my local TD.

Uimhir:142, 151

Ceist Pharlaiminte

Chun an Aire Oideachais agus Eolaíoctha
To the Minister for Education and Science

To ask the Minister for Education and Skills if his attention has been drawn to
the significant impact the increase in fees payable for graduate entry to
medicine and the withdrawal by AIB of the graduate student loan package for
graduate students will have on the viability of graduate entry medicine for
many students; if he is considering any measures to offset these obstacles; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
- Simon Harris.

* For WRITTEN answer on Tuesday, 10th July, 2012.
Reference Number: 33011/12, 33661/12

Freagra

Minister Ruairí Quinn

I propose to take questions 142 and 151 together.
Higher education institutions are autonomous bodies and the level of tuition
fees charged for their Graduate Entry Medicine (GEM) programmes, is a matter
for the institutions themselves to determine. Accordingly I have no role in the
matter. The prerequisite for entry to GEM programmes is an Upper Second or
First Class Honours Bachelor's degree in any discipline. GEM students therefore
are pursuing a second undergraduate degree and are not eligible for free fees
or for student grants. However in order to widen access the fees of EU students are partly subsidised by the State through the Higher Education Authority. For the 2011/12 academic year this subsidy amounted to €11,000 per EU student. In addition the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 provides tax relief, at the standard rate, for tuition fees paid in respect of approved courses. I appreciate that for individual students having to meet those fees can be difficult and therefore it is a matter of regret if the loan package in question has been withdrawn by the bank.

That bit in bold annoyed me a little.

This is also a letter that I circulated to all of my TD's, the ministers for Health, Education and the IMO. Might be of some use to ye.

Dear X,

My name is Jammyc and I am a final year science student at Trinity College Dublin. As one of your constituents, I felt it appropriate to make you aware of my concerns which I have also attempted to bring to the attention of Dr. James Reilly and Minister Ruairi Quinn. A major ambition of mine has been to study medicine and to work in the HSE following completion of my science degree. However, now the probability of this becoming a reality is growing smaller due to an increase in the fees payable by the student as well as a withdrawal of the loan package by AIB for graduate entry medicine students. This presents a double-fold impact on prospective students: Firstly, those wishing to apply for the loan package are required to look to other institutions for financial support, who are also reevaluating their loan packages and the viability of them. Secondly, those successful in gaining financial support are being left with debt close to the value of €100,000.

I can safely say that this problem is not specific to myself nor a small group of individuals, but to the vast majority of the population of prospective graduate entry medicine students. While I understand the gravity of the current economic situation, given the proportionally small investment required to sustain viable interest in graduate entry programs, I believe that the HSE and Department of Education are fully capable of maintaining the ethos of the graduate entry medicine program.

In 2007, when major reforms to medical education were taking place, then Minister for Education and Science, Mary Hannafin stated, "it essential that all students in medical education, be they under-graduate or graduates, are properly supported to undergo a high quality programme of medical education and training, to meet Ireland's health needs into the future". The Fottrell report examining the direction of medical education in Ireland also acknowledged the issue that the introduction of graduate entry medicine programs "may have the potential to further favour socio-economically advantaged students unless specific measures were taken to prevent this". I am sure that you are in full agreement with these two statements.

Until recently, the graduate medical schools, the HSE and the Higher Education Authority have ensured that the opportunity for graduates of all academic and socio-economic backgrounds to study medicine remained open. I trust that the desire to sustain this still exists and that a review and renewal of the circumstances will remedy the situation. I believe that I can speak for the vast majority of prospective graduate entry medicine students by saying that education totally at the expense of the state is not our objective. All that is being sought is that you, Ms. Ferris, will assist us in ensuring that the opportunity exists for those who wish to study medicine and work within the HSE, can do so.

I thank you greatly for taking the time to consider my concerns and I eagerly await your correspondence.

Yours Faithfully,

Jammyc

Also for what it's worth, I also got those replies from secretaries saying that it has been brought to their attention etc. Below is a letter I received from a political advisor to the Minister for Education & Skills on the matter.

Hopefully you guys get a bit more result than I do.

diverboy83 · 19-06-2013 2:40pm

Thanks Jammyc; I shared your annoyance when I read that PQ response myself.

The trick is to present them with a solution which they cannot so easily dismiss i.e. which is cost-neutral and which has an in-built incentive for the State.

Increasing the HEA grant will be extremely difficult and funding through the HSE even more so, given the dire straits it is in. By asking the Ministers for Education and Minister for Health to take a look at an affordable funding scheme in the shape of a State loan package, which would cover fees and living expenses at a discounted interest rate and with graduated repayments on employment i.e. a moratorium for the first four years with repayments based on level of income thereafter, which would be tied to a requirement for NCHDs to remain in Ireland for a period of time upon qualification (6-12 months is a figure I have heard from various sources) would put a package on the table which they will find hard to ignore in the same way as full/part financing without any return, per se, for the State.

The package outlined above would be a cost-neutral, revenue-generating measure which would ensure that GEMs have access to the money they need, that the Unis can still charge the fees (which is part of the motivation for running these courses) and that the State can ensure a diverse and equitable medical education system as well as a supply of NCHDs...

pc11 · 19-06-2013 3:10pm

I took a chance and called the HEA and I spoke to a helpful chap there.

I asked when the HEA would decide the grant for this year and he thought it would be July. As I've said here, it's quite unfair this information is not available as we decide or preferences. He is going to look into this for me.

I raised the general issue of funding for GEM and he was well aware of the situation and of the bank loans. He said there have been discussions with the Dept. of Education about this matter but he couldn't say any more at this time. He seemed to appreciate that GEM is an unusual situation and was aware of the original government policy that access to GEM should not depend on finances.

He needed to check some more info with a colleague and said he would call me back on Friday.

pc11 · 19-06-2013 3:13pm

I note that UCD has published fees for the coming year for all courses:
http://www.ucd.ie/registry/adminservices/fees/undergraduate2013.html

It lists GEM fees as unchanged from last year at 14,900. I don't know whether you can rely on this information given that HEA have yet to decide on their grant, but I would be surprised if they published this info prematurely.

byrneti · 19-06-2013 8:02pm

I'm a 2013 hopeful...

It's great that something is starting here, but if we want to engage in any sort of meaningful lobbying we need to form a committee for a new advocacy group, form a strategy and act on objectives.

I am willing to meet, I'm based in North Dublin but willing to travel.

Any takers?

Tiarnán

diverboy83 · 19-06-2013 8:42pm

I was hoping the IMO Student Craft Group/Chairs of the Med Socs would take on this role but in the absence of that, yes, I agree with the need to set up an advocacy platform. Based in South Dublin, but willing to travel also.

scns2010 · 19-06-2013 9:00pm

There is a lot of emphasis being placed on the HEA grant being a deciding factor for CAO choices. The grant will be the same for every college. RCSI base fees are higher at €14580 for 2012. This figure EXCLUDES capitation and IT fees. the figure quoted on the UCD website includes the capitation fee.

I am 100% behind this campaign. While it may be of no benefit to students commencing this year I think the GEM programme is a fantastic opportunity to study med. However, it definitely needs to be more financially accessible.

pc11 · 19-06-2013 10:47pm

scns2010 wrote: »

There is a lot of emphasis being placed on the HEA grant being a deciding factor for CAO choices. The grant will be the same for every college. RCSI base fees are higher at €14580 for 2012. This figure EXCLUDES capitation and IT fees. the figure quoted on the UCD website includes the capitation fee.

No, it's not the HEA grant that's the deciding factor, that's not what was said. The deciding factor is the fee payable by the student. We know the HEA grant is the same to all colleges and the difference between RCSI and UCD fees. Trust me, we have discussed this many times

Billydolan · 21-06-2013 9:36am

Teaming up is a great idea, I'm in galway if anyone else is!

pc11 · 21-06-2013 9:02pm

The chap from the HEA did call me back today as promised, fair play to him.

We had a good chat and at least he seemed to appreciate the difficulties. We particularly talked about 2 issues: the timing of the HEA decision on the subsidy and bank loans.

I had made the point that it's very difficult and quite unfair to be making the decision about college applications without full information about the fees involved. RCSI in particular told me last week they were waiting on the HEA before announcing their fees for the coming year. He agreed this was unfair to us and promised to bring it up within the HEA and see if the decision could be made earlier in the year. He did say that he hoped the subsidy would not be reduced this year, but obviously we can't rely on this.

Regarding bank loans: I explained how only BOI will lend to all colleges but UB only lend in UL. I said I had tried to get UB to lend to a Dublin-based student on the same terms and they had refused. He agreed this was very strange. I asked if perhaps the HEA or Dept of Education might raise this with UB and request them to broaden their loan package to other colleges, and he said he would mention this within the HEA. I won't hold my breath but it was good to have the problem acknowledged.

He promised to call me again if there was any further information.

Since then I have been thinking about the fees and timing of the announcement. UL and UCD have indicated their fees won't rise this year, but RCSI have said nothing. The more I think about, the more angry I am that we have to finalise our CAO list without full information. I think this is deeply unfair. Finances are probably the single biggest barrier for most of us.

If UCD's fees stay the same, and RCSI raise theirs, the differential between the 2 is even greater. As the BOI loan will not cover this differential, it could easily be a deal-breaker for some students financially. And after July 1st it will be too late to change our minds and apply for UCD or wherever if this differential increases. I am angry and upset at this. We are under enough strain planning for GEM already.

Now, I'll deal with it if I need to, but it's still unfair.

A further thought: I presume that RCSI is quietly proud of the fact it is the hardest to get into. I've worked in several colleges, and higher points for entry do look good and make it look exclusive and desirable. Now, if the UCD/RCSI fee differential grows, more students will opt for UCD and RCSI will lose its premium. I believe RCSI would not like this. They should consider this possible consequence. I agree with some speculation here that UCD points could match or overtake RCSI soon.

Or, are RCSI keen to attract the elite and those who can afford it? I don't know.

nomoreexams · 21-06-2013 9:33pm

Fair play! It's very frustrating not knowing what fees we're facing alright. That's partially the reason ucd is my number 1 at the moment. I'm afraid to rely on RCSI's fees staying the same and then end up having to refuse my place in RCSI and having to wait until next year to apply to UCD. It's so unfair asking us to make a decision without full disclosure.

If they're secretive about fees is that an indicator of further problems down the line trying to get info??

diverboy83 · 21-06-2013 11:34pm

Just to ask that if anyone is voting 'no' in this poll, could they please put up a post with their reasoning? That way we will have input from across the spectrum on this.

On the conversation with the HEA - fair play to them indeed. I understand that the Sunday Business Post might be running an article on our issue this Sunday and that their correspondent has been in contact with the med schools.

For me, the issue of RCSI fees was one of the biggest determining factors in my decision. It will be a struggle to make ends meet as it is without the added pressure of coming up with an unknown extra amount every year.

pc11 · 24-06-2013 11:28am

I am considering drafting an email/letter to head of admissions at RCSI with some of the points below. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on this? I'm thinking that many of us should raise some the same points and make our feelings clear.

why are the RCSI GEM fees higher for GEM than for any other college?
When will RCSI announce its GEM fees for 2013/2014?
Are you aware that UCD and UL have already announced their fees for the coming year?
Why is RCSI waiting for HEA to decide on its grant when UCD and UL have been able to announce their fees already?
Does RCSI consider that increasing the differential vs. UCD will eventually affect demand for RCSI and therefore lower the points for RCSI?
Does RCSI agree that it is deeply unfair to prospective students to have to decide their final preferences without knowing the fees they will be charged?
Would RCSI consider asking the HEA to to decide its grant earlier and in turn decide earlier what the fees for the coming year will be so as to allow prospective students to make informed decisions?
Has RCSI approached Ulster Bank to ask them make their loan package available to RCSI students? If not, why not?
Has RCSI had any interaction this year with any of the banks with regards to easing the funding situation for GEM students?
Has RCSI asked the Department of Education to try to make GEM more affordable to ensure the widest possible access to GEM programmes?

GEM - Access to Funding Campaign 2013

Are you in favour of a coordinated campaign in the manner described in this post? 33 votes

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