LCU AGM

So seeing as I proposed most of them, I may as well throw in my two cents to get things started -

1) I think last year's decision to change the Bodley to one hour was well intentioned, but an awful, awful decision. Evidently, I'm not alone as Curragh have a similar motion in (although their rule is slightly confusing - I think it means that to declare 90 minutes as your home time control, you have to play on Saturdays)

The problem is about late finishes for juniors; it's an understandable one. However, the rule change has a number of problems -

a) The Bodley is not a junior league; fewer than half the players are juniors
b) The rule change does nothing to allow juniors to progress through the leagues; Gonzaga withdrew from the O'Hanlon a few years ago. This rule does nothing to get them back there
c) One hour is too short a time control for a proper competition. Certainly, we're encouraging our players to stop and think about positions and use their time fully. With one hour each, they just get caught in time trouble and end up losing games they should win. For players to progress properly, they have to play the game properly; one hour simply isn't enough time.
d) Pretty much all our juniors who played the Bodley this year (16 of them) disliked the time control, and all who subbed for the O'Hanlon or Heidenfeld commented how much better it was to have more time.

The one-hour Bodley simply needs to go, IMO.

2) Going to a 90-minute Bodley doesn't solve the problems of late night finishes for juniors, of course. What I'd like to see is junior teams playing on Saturday afternoons just like country teams. All clubs have to declare their squads before the season starts; declare yourself as a junior team, with three juniors in the squad, and all your games are scheduled for Saturday afternoons.

I think this would be a huge help to juniors playing in the league, and progressing up through it. It is technically open to abuse - declaring three juniors, two of whom never play, just to get all your games on Saturday afternoons. But realistically, as no non-country team plays on Saturday afternoons anyway, I can't see any team abusing the rules to change their start time.

I think the highest "junior" team last season was St Benildus' O'Hanlon team, and I don't recall any other team in the O'Hanlon (though I didn't see many of them of course). So for now, this would affect relatively few games in the leagues.

3) Obviously some clubs want to play one-hour games; this proposal is to see if there's interest in a new division as a stepping stone from beginners chess (the O'Connell Cup) to senior chess (the Bodley). Games would be played on club nights rather than the O'Connell set-up of all meeting in the one venue and playing a few games a weekend, so it'd be a transition from O'Connell to Bodley.

4) This seems convoluted, but the idea is fairly simple. In the past ten seasons, there's been 17 gaps in the leagues which went unfilled. That's 17 teams that pulled out after the fixtures were announced, and no team was promoted in their place. I was particularly annoyed that our Bodley (who'd finished third) weren't promoted last season after first Kilkenny and then Wicklow withdrew from the Ennis - a week after our Heidenfeld were promoted when Bray asked for a relegation. We've finished third again this season (in both groups). I want to avoid a repeat!

I think if clubs are going to ask for fixtures by 31 August, the least they can do in return is confirm if they'll be entering the leagues in the first place. I think that's just common courtesy. Players want to play at a higher level, and improve by so doing. To leave teams in lower divisions when there are gaps further above is silly. So before the fixtures are issued, clubs should be asked to confirm entry. We all know what divisions we're in next season. So for Benildus, we'd be asked if we want to keep our teams in the Armstrong, Heidenfeld and O'Hanlon. If we want to drop our O'Hanlon (which we don't, but anyway), then third place in the BA should be invited to take our place. Let's stop having gaps in the leagues for no reason.

5) A minor point this one; there's been times when we've been really short for a game, and rather than forfeit, we've called in someone who hasn't played in a couple of years, or asked a parent who's helping with transport to jump in on the bottom board. It always seems a bit much to then turn around and ask for E35 for helping us out! It's a chance-my-arm proposal; not too pushed if it goes through to be honest.

6) As per the other thread, I felt this year's Cup schedule was way too hectic. One of the Branagan groups had six teams in before Curragh withdrew - to win the cup, therefore, teams were being asked to play seven games in seven weeks. I think that's too much. It also means subs are much harder to come by, as they're playing a game a week themselves. So this is to try put a limit on the number of cup games. Again, not too pushed if it goes through.

Bray This one has been proposed a few times in various guises, I think. Was it rejected last year because it was badly worded? In fairness, while it's very annoying when consecutive teams play on the same night, I think this one would be a logistical nightmare for Peter Scott.

Curragh As above, I think this is confusing the way it's written, and I'm more in favour of all Bodley games going to 90 minutes. This rule could give country teams an advantage as all their games would be 90 minutes.

If there's a programme that'll sort consecutive teams playing on the same night, that'd be excellent!

What would you suggest to improve the Junior Team motion? Something needs to be done badly here - juniors aren't playing in the leagues, and our experience is that they really don't like the one-hour format. I think leagues are important for building a sense of club pride, which ultimately may help keep them interested in the game. We never had much of a problem with late nights, but others have. We need something to be done here, and juniors playing weekends is the obvious solution.

While I agree (from experience in one of the country's biggest junior clubs) that juniors are best treated as adults in chess, clearly there is a view that they want different treatment in the leagues if the Bodley was changed to one hour specifically for them. And there is the issue that Gonzaga don't have a lower-league in team - which is ridiculous, when you look at the strength of their Armstrong - partly because of the late-night finishes (a driver-captain is the other issue).

This rule would affect no Armstrong team at all. As I said, the highest team last season that could claim it, as far as I'm aware, is in the O'Hanlon.

FWIW, the was hardly ever a problem with us playing on weeknights; the view was that five late-night away games over the year wasn't that much (home games aren't so bad, especially as you can leave when you're finished). For me, the main thing is to get rid of the one-hour Bodley. But junior team status is something I think would encourage juniors to progress through the league, and I don't see how that's a bad thing.

I don't think there's any evidence that the increase in the Bodley was down to the time control.

For starters, 12 teams entered last year (three subsequently pulled out, one half-way through the leagues). 14 entered this year, but there were only ten teams in the Ennis - so basically there was no nett gain of teams this year at all. Still 72 teams.

Of those who joined, Round Tower and Gorey weren't junior teams, so the control can hardly be said to have affected their decision. And if clubs want a one-hour league to get started with leagues, I've proposed one.

The "If both sides agree" thing is a fop; it's one hour by default, and all it takes really is one player wanting to play that time control and the whole team will insist on it (or be stuck waiting an extra hour).

The fact of the matter is that longer games are better for juniors (and adults) looking to improve their game, and a senior league such as the Bodley should not be a one-hour league. This is backed up by pretty much all our junior players who played the league this season.

Gearoid MacGabhain wrote: »

I agree that longer games are better for everyone, but it is not feasible for young players to be playing late at night.

Which is why I've proposed the idea of junior teams playing on Saturdays, and a separate one-hour league for those who want it.

The problem with the current set-up is that it doesn't allow juniors to progress through the leagues. Blanchardstown in the BA or O'Hanlon next season - they'll have to play weeknights and have late finishes. This might be a problem; it's why Gonzaga pulled out of the O'Hanlon a couple of years ago.

My suggestion is a way of combining the best of both worlds (no late finishes; longer games; allows juniors to progress through the leagues) and is surely much preferable to the current set-up? There has to be a problem if two clubs are looking to change it, and players are criticising it.

There is no provision at all for Bodley players who want to play full-length games, and that's a ridiculous omission at present that needs to be fixed.

Irish Warrior wrote: »

So why would a change to when a team can play their matches on?

I agree with your comment that the leagues aren't junior leagues, and in fact with most of your comments. Our juniors were quite happy playing on weeknights; others evidently weren't, which is why the Bodley changed to one hour.

By way of explanation - while I think that one hour hinders juniors' progress, I wanted to address the point being made that juniors find playing on weeknights awkward. This was the best compromise I could find. Yes, the rule as I have it would mean their away games would be on Saturdays.

The other problem with the rule as it stands is that if a junior team gets promoted from the Bodley, they either have to start playing weeknights or turn down promotion. What's the point in entering the leagues if you're going to turn down promotion? Surely a separate one-hour league would be better from that point of view.

I think the whole one-hour Bodley has been very badly thought through.

Chessrookie wrote: »

We are training our kids when they start playing to slow down and take their time. The 60 minute rule gives the wrong message.

Exactly the same problem we're having.

Interesting to hear, though, that we're not the only club where the juniors don't like the time control. I think it'd be good to get that view aired at the AGM.

Possibly upping the number of juniors on the team is an idea; I think that's the kind of thing that can be amended at the AGM after debating the matter. I just wanted to get some sort of discussion on the idea.

On the cups - the cups last year were groups of four, with games two weeks apart. The motion I've proposed on that would aim to make that the standard cup format, so that's your concern there sorted.