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Doping in football

  • 05-02-2013 5:43am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,832 ✭✭✭✭Blatter


    There is another thread that covers this but Barcelona is in the title and most of the posts are about Messi and HGH (if you want to discuss that please find the other thread or start a new one as it derails the general discussion) Discuss the possibility of Messi as well as any other footballer taking other PEDs, but the HGH thing has been done to death.

    I was on twitter and some random blogger who has clearly done a lot of research on the matter was quoting a few doctors involved in doping/other figures in authority as well as making his own comments which I found very interesting as some of them had echoed my own thoughts on the matter of the last few months particularly since the Lance Armstrong fiasco. I will quote some of them here....
    bit.ly/WpBEz7 Reminder that current drug doctor Fuentes currently under investigation "worked with Barca + Madrid" accrdng to LeMonde
    "Fuentes was paid 342,000 euros to provide Real Sociedad substances - link"
    With football's doping precautions almost non existent, can we finally start talking about odd things happening in football in recent years?
    What's often overlooked is that Messi is not only a better footballer than everyone else - but a far more supreme physical athlete. Physically, Messi looks just light years ahead of competitors. Acceleration, power, stamina - is it too much? All these goals?
    When Barry Bonds and McGuire were throwing baseball records into outer space everyone now feels stupid for not guessing what was going on. Now looking at these ridiculous "super human" records Messi is achieving - mixed with the complete lack of meaningful drug testing in football, surely it's time we start thinking about this? Messi's injury record also...
    The doctor at Brescia when Guardiola was caught using nandrolone, worked as the head doctor at Barca under Pep.
    Xavi is an interesting case. Formerly an injury prone player, and not known for athletic ability early in his career is now a player who rarely misses a game a season, then plays for Spain in the summer, never seems to tire in games.
    Dr Fuentes (the doctor at the centre of a cycling doping ring with links to Barca/Madrid) has said that he hasn't been able to speak previously about working with top football clubs because "threats made against family"
    Would we really be surprised by FIFA ignoring this? The organisation is rotten to the core - bribery scandal proves that.
    "If I would talk, the Spanish football team would be stripped of the 2010 World Cup" - Eufemiano Fuentes
    "There are sports against which you cannot go against, because they have access to very powerful legal means to defend themselves" - Fuentes
    With recent develpmnts, footballs lack of testing - how can we not look at extraordinary physical achievements of certain players/teams?
    Angel Heredia - athletics drug maestro has come out to say plenty of football players came for his services.
    Chelsea's famous "blood-spinning" technique involves removing blood,and calcium and the enzyme thrombin are added before the resulting gel is injected back into the wound. It heals injuries 5 times quicker, and contains non natural processes.

    The man in charge of this blood-spinning at Chelsea under Mourinho was former UK Athletics doctor.
    Barca players lack-of-tiredness even at the end of games+E.T even more amazing considering they play high intensity pressing game.
    "The documents, in Dr Fuentes' handwriting, allegedly detail the preparation plans for the Barca+Mardrid for the 2005-2006 seasons. The plan showed that the main objective of FC Barcelona was the Champions League in May, which it won, as well as peaking for the WC. The training programs include circles and 'IG' symbols that correspond to preparation or rest periods. These are the same symbols used by Dr Fuentes in his plans for the Liberty Seguros riders, according to Le Monde. The Spanish Guardia Civil believe that these symbols correspond to anabolic steroids (circle) and Insulin Growth Factor - IGF-1 (IG). Other symbols are used in the team plans, including a rounded 'e', and a circle with a dot in it. These are supposed to correspond to blood transfusions and the administration of EPO. Some individual players had tailored programs''
    It's clear to anyone, with this and Real Sociedad, Spainish football at the top is at least rife with doping. The current trial of Dr Fuentes is only for his involvement in cycling and the judge has ruled no football teams are permitted to be named.
    Even In 1999 Emmanuel Petit claimed that players were turning to doping.
    Luis Garcia Del Morel, who once worked with Lance Armstrong, was on the books of Barcelona as a "medical consultant". Del Morel, who along with Lance Arstrong was given a lifelong ban, also worked "unofficially" with Valencia FC.
    Del Morel: "Cyclists were angels compared to footballers"
    1998: Roma coach Zdenek Zeman gave an interview in which he claimed there was 'widespread use' of performance-enhancing drugs in Seria A.
    Yet even after all these warning signs over the years, FIFA/UEFA have done precisely zero to implement any serious drug testing policy.
    Jesus Manzano - former cyclist and famous whistleblower - said he saw a Real Madrid player while visiting Dr Fuentes.
    In an interview with Le Monde 2005 - Dr Fuentes said he's worked with La Liga clubs and players, sometimes directly and sometimes just "sharing his knowledge" with the club's own doctors
    F.C Barcelona twice tried to hire Dr Fuentes in 1996 and 2002 - both times he declined.
    "I saw well-known footballers [being treated by Fuentes], but I cannot say how many," - Jesus Manzano
    Speaking on "Operation Puerto", chief doping doctor Fuentes says "There have been only selective leaks. I am indignant about that."
    Namely, only cyclists names were released from the files of Operation Puerto, even though Fuentes treated all athletes from all over world.
    Dr Fuentes said "only 30% of my clients were cyclists" so why is cycling the only sport to ban athletes after the investigation?
    Zinedine Zidane, who admitted to taking creatine while at Juventus, advised Johnny Hallyday to visit Dr Fuentes clinic.
    Cast mind back to WC 06 - 34 yr old Zidane surprised many with his sudden new found energy. In qualifier matches he was slow and ponderous. Now we know Zidane had clear links with Fuentes his sudden all-action performances at WC 06 come into question. Zidane's endurance and power took a clear leap during that WC - in other sports this is always a warning sign. In football, it's romantic.
    Wenger, 2004, stated publicly signings he makes from the continent test abnormally for high red blood cells (EPO). What did the football world do? What they always do, ignore it.
    Wenger claimed some players may be "doped without their knowledge". This was the claim of Edgar Davids and Jaap Stam, who were both banned. Ronaldo was in trouble with Italian authorities for a "forbidden blood tranfsusion" he underwent, to heal an injury quicker.
    UCI (cycliing) president only got the names of dopers from Spanish authorities because he "pushed the issue". Other sports didn't bother.
    250 bags of blood were seized from Dr Fuentes, no inventory was ever called for by Spanish Judge, and most bags have now perished. What we saw in Spain was a complete breakdown of authority to regulate doping, even in the courts, that is still absent today.
    Doping in football has been staring people in the face for years yet no one has done anything to even begin to look at it. Ultimate taboo.
    When Spanish authorities finally had ACTUAL bags of blood, quite possibly from football players sitting there - football didn't investigate. Even with all Dr Fuentes public links with top clubs and top players, football didn't care to investigate when they had the chance.
    José Luis Astiazarán, the current president of the Spanish Football League, was one of the Real Sociedad presidents accused by Badiola of overseeing payments in his time to Dr Fuentes for doping services. Sociedad finished second in one of those years. Astiazarán is now denying any knowledge of this. Ye Badiola claims he has emails and letters sent from club doctors asking for permission. I believe if Badiola (Real Sociedad president 2008) is proved correct, the current head of Spanish football's position will be untenable.
    Spanish civil guards (who wanted to continue football investigation but were called off by Judge Serrano) confirmed in todays trial that documents seized in 2006 showed the client 'Rsoc' (real sociedad) and the abbreviation "IG" - normally meaning growth hormone. The same abbreviations that Le Monde, in 2006, claimed Dr Fuentes had on his personal Barcelona and Real Madrid 'doping plan'.

    Badiola implies that Astiazaran became head of LFP (Spanish FA) to shelter him from recriminations with his time at Sociedad.
    2006, El Mundo described Dr Fuentes methods of blood treatment were aimed "boosting resistance to fatigue"

    Again though, no identities were released from the 99 bags of blood seized and analyzed from Dr Fuentes in a Barcelona lab. The only sporting association to act upon this information were the UCI, even though Dr Fuentes admitted that roughly 40% of his clients were footballers and tennis players.
    In the 2006 World Cup, even after the concerns raised by Operation Puerto, FIFA decided to drop all blood control testing for the tournament. FIFA began to introduce blood control testing in the 2002 WC, but decided to go back urine-only in '06 WC.
    Jean-Pierre Paclet, who worked for the French Football association, claimed that blood tests from players of the 1998 WC winning team showed that several Les Bleus players had high red-blood cell levels, and anomalies, but nothing was done. Paclet said "the practises going on at the time [with the French national team] were borderline - it was common knowledge"
    So many public warning signs down the years, and still today, no blood control tests are performed as standard in Europe's top leagues.
    German football authorities recently ruled they "didn't have the money" to put blood-testing in place in football..... - Bundesliga turnover 2011/12 = 2 billion euro. Cost of implementing blood-testing a few hundred thousand.
    Former client of Dr Fuentes cyclist Jorge Jaksche, claimed that German police suspected Fuentes of doping players at the 2006 WC but didn't have enough evidence to act. Jaksche says Fuentes often "boasted" to him about his work with footballers. "He was proud of it"

    Interesting stuff eh? Not saying all of what is implied above is true but I think people have their heads in the sand if they don't believe that doping is/has been prevalent in top level football whilst being swept under the carpet.


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,836 ✭✭✭Sir Gallagher


    Judging from pace alone, Stewart Downing should be tested for smack.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,068 ✭✭✭Bodhisopha


    Are these all quotes from doctors or some from the guy doing the research too?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭Red Crow


    I would of thought it as fairly obvious that there was a large amount of doping in football. Most doping bans have been for missing drugs tests or taking recreational drugs like Cocaine. PED's are going to exist in this multi-million sport. Some guys are going to take a chance to get a pay day here.

    I don't think everybody is doing it but surely there must have been some players taking PED's tested and discovered but not brought to the public domain or else the tests arent stringent enough. My guess would be a bit of both. I don't think the football authorities want to unlock this black box.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,424 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    This is not just Spanish problem but worldwide.

    Rugby though IMO has serious problems too


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭WesternZulu


    This is not just Spanish problem but worldwide.

    Rugby though IMO has serious problems too

    How so?
    I'm interested as it's something you rarely hear mentioned about the game, less so that even soccer.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,262 ✭✭✭✭GavRedKing


    Any chance we can give Torres some of what Messi is on?

    Seems only fair, although I dont think it would help too much. :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,826 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    https://twitter.com/Giggs_Boson

    Plenty info coming off this TL,shocking but not surprising really given the money etc involved in Football


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    People involved in the trials in Spain have been saying for years now that football is "worse than cycling" and that FIFA and the RSEF are doing everything they can to keep football out of the trials.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 454 ✭✭Israel_Dagg




  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 454 ✭✭Israel_Dagg


    This is not just Spanish problem but worldwide.

    Rugby though IMO has serious problems too

    Would be very rare. Very.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,255 ✭✭✭batistuta9


    I remember hearing on a some football program ages ago that "Juventus practically ran a doing agency in the '90's"

    Their doctor & a director were found guilty but it was overturned on appeal, EPO was one of the things used


  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This is not just Spanish problem but worldwide.

    Rugby though IMO has serious problems too
    Rugby is staying under the radar somewhat because they've gotten better at it. Before Union went pro League in the UK went mental, the players were bigger in the mid-nineties than now and they were beating Australia just on power. Now they at the least try to hide it. Union now has way, way more money flying into it and to the players.

    I just find it funny how people think it wouldn't happen in football given the money and prospects involved.


  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    batistuta9 wrote: »
    I remember hearing on a some football program ages ago that "Juventus practically ran a doing agency in the '90's"

    Their doctor & a director were found guilty but it was overturned on appeal, EPO was one of the things used
    Was it overturned on appeal? I thought that there was a load of faffing about and they got off on a statute of limitations or something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭Lumbo


    Would be very rare. Very.

    With the amount of creatine used at junior levels I find it hard to believe that doping in Rugby would be rare.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,952 ✭✭✭Morzadec


    I think this definitely doesn't get enough attention, and certainly warrants a new proper thread to discuss it.

    It would be naive to think that nothing like this goes on. The links with Fuentes are really worrying...

    The thought that Zidane at 2006 or Spain in 2010, or this current great Barca team might have been involved in dodgy practices is really hard to bear. I truly hope it's not true... But certainly you wonder how Barca can keep up that sort of intensity...

    I think many (like me to an extent) would prefer to close their eyes and ears to this and pretend it's not going on, because it would be hard to take for those who love the game.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭Julez


    They should let them all dope as much as they like so we can have a football super league of Messi like players, would be quite entertaining.


  • Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,228 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    I'd say a proper investigation would disgrace a lot of big name players, as well as clubs.

    Can't see it happening any time soon though.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,255 ✭✭✭batistuta9


    Was it overturned on appeal? I thought that there was a load of faffing about and they got off on a statute of limitations or something.

    think so anyway, i never really looked for much on it though

    the doctor got 2-3 years but he appealed, the director, an owner of the club, actually wasn't found guilty, he got off the in the first trial but prosecutors got him tried again in the appeal, he got off in that too though

    look at the references/links 18, 19, 20 from this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Juventus_F.C.#The_Lippi_era they're from ESPN & the BBC news reports of it

    It was through Italian courts & the CAS were involved too, that might be the faffing about :pac: you're thinking on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭mitosis


    batistuta9 wrote: »
    think so anyway, i never really looked for much on it though

    the doctor got 2-3 years but he appealed, the director, an owner of the club, actually wasn't found guilty, he got off the in the first trial but prosecutors got him tried again in the appeal, he got off in that too though

    look at the references/links 18, 19, 20 from this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Juventus_F.C.#The_Lippi_era they're from ESPN & the BBC news reports of it

    It was through Italian courts & the CAS were involved too, that might be the faffing about :pac: you're thinking on

    This is important. The manner in which you quote from the article is to strongly imply a club were illegally doping. These are also quotes from the article.
    Neither the pharmaceutical substances that were in question were banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency nor did any Juventus players have positive test results for any illegal doping substances
    after official inquiries and two trials, Juventus were cleared of all charges


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭ANXIOUS


    Ped's are rampant in soccer. However no one has the appetite to confront it


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭mitosis


    Football is surely as doped as any other sport, just not necessarily in the same way. I'd say rather than performance doping they use recovery doping.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,987 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Is Creatine banned in sport?

    You can buy it in Argos!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 454 ✭✭Israel_Dagg


    Lumbo wrote: »
    With the amount of creatine used at junior levels I find it hard to believe that doping in Rugby would be rare.

    Such is the amount of work that goes into underage training there would be next to no need for extra supplements. You're talking about a guy who plays u-16 for the province to be sent doing weight training sessions at 7 o clock in the morning before school. Of course some players surely dope but it wouldn't be widespread and clubs wouldn't know about it, imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,828 ✭✭✭gosplan


    Buttonftw wrote: »
    I just find it funny how people think it wouldn't happen in football given the money and prospects involved.

    This.

    If a business is paying a guy 100k to run a couple of half marathons each week, and there's no doping controls, then they HAVE to be doing it. Ethics don't come into it.

    The only thing I'm surprised about is that more disgruntled ex-players haven't come out.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Such is the amount of work that goes into underage training there would be next to no need for extra supplements. You're talking about a guy who plays u-16 for the province to be sent doing weight training sessions at 7 o clock in the morning before school. Of course some players surely dope but it wouldn't be widespread and clubs wouldn't know about it, imo.

    Suplement use in underage rugby, especially senior schools level, is almost universal. When I played under age, which is over 10 years ago, hald the lads I played with took whey and creatine and from talking to coaches the last few years and younger players it's almost standard now. From 15 onwards kids are being encouraged to take whey and creatine to help with muscle mass gain and recovery. When I was in AIT the Bucc's underage players and Connacht academy players who were based in Athlone (studying in AIT) used to use the AIT gym with bucc's coaches several times a week and every single one of them was skulling shakes in the locker rooms after sessions.


    Rugby also has an extremely disproportionate amount of players who apparently have asthma, it's well known that certain drugs on the banned list can be exempt for asthmatic treatments, the Irish senior team being a prime example.

    To think there isn't doping in rugby at a senior level is extremely naive and to think that under age players aren't using supplements is just silly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭Renn


    Seaneh wrote: »
    the lads I played with took whey

    Any idea where they got that gear from?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,255 ✭✭✭batistuta9


    mitosis wrote: »
    This is important. The manner in which you quote from the article is to strongly imply a club were illegally doping. These are also quotes from the article.

    I'm not quoting from wikipedia but the references/cites used by it

    the quotes you give aren't in any article i linked to look at, their written on the Wiki page but their references/cites don't mention them

    from wiki reference/link 18 ESPN
    Agricola was also found guilty of administering the banned blood-booster EPO. That verdict is under appeal.

    reference/link 19 BBC
    A Juventus doctor has been convicted of administering banned substances to the club's players during the 1990s.


    reference/link 20 ESPN
    The decision overturned the guilty verdict handed down by another Turin court last November when Agricola was given a 22-month suspended prison sentence for administering the banned blood-booster EPO to the club's players between 1994 and 1998.

    they were found guilty of illegally doping, they got off on appeal - Italy is a country with massive corruption problems.

    I think they were doping and got off


  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    batistuta9 wrote: »
    they were found guilty of illegally doping, they got off on appeal - Italy is a country with massive corruption problems.

    I think they were doping and got off
    You're now going to have people throw out the "but they weren't convicted" thing as if it means anything. Look at the people who defended Lance Armstrong right up til a few months ago.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    FIFA are bringing in the biological passport for the 2014 World Cup. Messi is trialing it along with Neymar. This will be a huge step for football as it can catch changes in your biological make up. It is more efficient than drug tests as new drugs are out all the time and specific tests need to be developed for each drug.

    The Barry Bonds thing was mental because he wasn't doing what Messi was doing from a young age. He suddenly started growing and hitting numbers that were seemingly beyond him when he was younger. Everybody knew something wasn't right even when he was at his peak. Messi has been doing this for his whole career, pretty much, with a steady improvement curve. I don't think he is doping.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,262 ✭✭✭✭GavRedKing


    AFAIK Creatine and Whey Protein arent banned in Soccer, I mean there is natural sources of Creatine, red meat etc etc but just not on the same level you'd get from a scoop of the stuff from your local Holland and Barrett or Argos.

    Whey protein again provides ya with supplements that occur naturally but sometiems the protein is too much to take in one meal, for instance the Maximuscle promax whey protein has the protein level per scoop as if you ate 2/3 chicken breasts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭Renn


    Ah guys, whey is in a load of products in the shop next door to you. For a quick and basic example just look at the back of some Kellog's bar next time you're there.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Renn wrote: »
    Any idea where they got that gear from?

    argos or a million other "health food" shops around the place.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    GavRedKing wrote: »
    AFAIK Creatine and Whey Protein arent banned in Soccer, I mean there is natural sources of Creatine, red meat etc etc but just not on the same level you'd get from a scoop of the stuff from your local Holland and Barrett or Argos.

    Whey protein again provides ya with supplements that occur naturally but sometiems the protein is too much to take in one meal, for instance the Maximuscle promax whey protein has the protein level per scoop as if you ate 2/3 chicken breasts.

    Creatine and Whey aren't banned at all, in any sport, as far as I know.

    I only mentioned them because someone say supplement use didn't happen in underage rugby and I know it does and has for ages.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,068 ✭✭✭Bodhisopha


    Renn wrote: »
    Ah guys, whey is in a load of products in the shop next door to you. For a quick and basic example just look at the back of some Kellog's bar next time you're there.

    Even Little Miss Muffet was on the whey.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,832 ✭✭✭✭Blatter


    Bodhisopha wrote: »
    Are these all quotes from doctors or some from the guy doing the research too?

    Both. He basically quotes a load of people in authority and then speculates.
    FIFA are bringing in the biological passport for the 2014 World Cup. Messi is trialing it along with Neymar. This will be a huge step for football as it can catch changes in your biological make up. It is more efficient than drug tests as new drugs are out all the time and specific tests need to be developed for each drug.

    The Barry Bonds thing was mental because he wasn't doing what Messi was doing from a young age. He suddenly started growing and hitting numbers that were seemingly beyond him when he was younger. Everybody knew something wasn't right even when he was at his peak. Messi has been doing this for his whole career, pretty much, with a steady improvement curve. I don't think he is doping.

    Maybe the Barry Bonds comparison isn't the best one, but surely you have to question any player/team that reaches seemingly supernatural heights in a sport that has pathetic doping testing procedures despite several string links to doping. Especially when the governing body, FIFA, is blatantly corrupt.

    And when you look at Spain as a country, and what it's sporting achievements have been overall recently, you certainly have to ask the question. Spanish athletes have all of a sudden dominated football, cycling and tennis to different extents over the last number of years.

    Yannick Noah (French former tennis player) has said:
    In my time, French athletes didn’t look ridiculous, far from it, against our Spanish friends. Same on the football fields, the basket halls or on the roads of the Tour de France. Today they are running faster than us, are much more stronger and only leave us the bread crumbs. Compared to them, it’s simple, we look like dwarves. Are we missing something?”

    One question keeps coming back to me: how can a nation dominate virtually overnight the sport in such a way ? Did they discover some avant-garde techniques or training facilities that nobody before them had imagined? I have searched and didn’t find any documented evidence of such innovations. Today, sports are a bit like Astérix at the Olympic Games: if you don’t have the magic potion, it’s hard to win. And here it looks like, just like Obelix, they fell right down in the potion pot. Lucky guys.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Hard to take him seriously when he just spends the time having a pop at mainly Barca players. If he's going to point the finger as Messi for his amazing achievements then why not Ronaldo?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Blatter wrote: »
    Both. He basically quotes a load of people in authority and then speculates.



    Maybe the Barry Bonds comparison isn't the best one, but surely you have to question any player/team that reaches seemingly supernatural heights in a sport that has pathetic doping testing procedures despite several string links to doping. Especially when the governing body, FIFA, is blatantly corrupt.

    And when you look at Spain as a country, and what it's sporting achievements have been overall recently, you certainly have to ask the question. Spanish athletes have all of a sudden dominated football, cycling and tennis to different extents over the last number of years.

    Yannick Noah (French former tennis player) has said:

    That's a fair point from Noah and as cynical as it is, I get where you are coming from when you question the levels the likes of Messi is reaching when it comes to football. It's one of the main questions you have to ask when you suspect somebody is doping.

    Is this person miles in front of everyone else and ripping up every record that was previously set? Are they sustaining this performance over numerous years with no sign of faitgue? After that, you start looking at people who are seemingly getting fitter, stronger and simply much better despite an advanced age. Then you look at people who were great when they were young but their bodies seem to be falling apart as they get older.

    All that being said, I think that Messi just is that good. He seems fallible when he plays for Argentina, although he is playing much better now, and his abilities are bolstered by being in a team of superior players that is designed to get the best out of him.

    As somebody said earlier, it could be recovery doping that is being employed at the highest level of football, to allow players to play 60/70 games in a season. Hopefully the biological passport thing has teeth.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,832 ✭✭✭✭Blatter


    Hard to take him seriously when he just spends the time having a pop at mainly Barca players. If he's going to point the finger as Messi for his amazing achievements then why not Ronaldo?

    Well he speculates over Zidane too. I'd say it's definitely fair to ask questions about Ronaldo as well but I suppose it's natural to look at the teams that have (are) reached heights nobody has ever seen before when you're speculating about doping in football.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,009 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Course there is, more so recovery doping than anything else though.

    However, just imo, the effect it has on football is less than guys taking stuff in endurance or speed sports.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,672 ✭✭✭elefant


    Maybe I'm missing something here, but why are Protein Supplements even being mentioned in this thread? :confused:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Blatter wrote: »
    Well he speculates over Zidane too. I'd say it's definitely fair to ask questions about Ronaldo as well but I suppose it's natural to look at the teams that have (are) reached heights nobody has ever seen before when you're speculating about doping in football.



    I agree but when I look at how they reached those heights I just don't see it mainly down to drugs. I don't think comparisons with cycling or athletics are accurate either. Cycling seems to be a sport that realies all on physical skills - strength and enduance mainly, same with athletics. In football you can be a big, strong,fast, fit etc as you like, if you can't control a football you are toast. I don't see a Barca/Spainish team that is fitter than everyone else, I don't see a team that is bigger/stronger than everyone else I just see a team that has a group of players that is far better with a football than everyone else.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    I agree but when I look at how they reached those heights I just don't see it mainly down to drugs. I don't think comparisons with cycling or athletics are accurate either. Cycling seems to be a sport that realies all on physical skills - strength and enduance mainly, same with athletics. In football you can be a big, strong,fast, fit etc as you like, if you can't control a football you are toast. I don't see a Barca/Spainish team that is fitter than everyone else, I don't see a team that is bigger/stronger than everyone else I just see a team that has a group of players that is far better with a football than everyone else.

    But there are loads of techniques that help you to recover quicker from games and injuries. Getting fresh blood cycled into your system to improve oxygen circulation to your muscles, testosterone patches to increase the recuperation of damaged or fatigued muscles etc. That's what they reckon is happening in the NBA, where the players unions have blocked any attempts to make blood testing mandatory in that sport.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,508 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Blatter wrote: »
    Well he speculates over Zidane too. I'd say it's definitely fair to ask questions about Ronaldo as well but I suppose it's natural to look at the teams that have (are) reached heights nobody has ever seen before when you're speculating about doping in football.

    Zidane speculation is flawed though. Talks about Zidane being slow and ponderous in qualifying for 2006 which gives the impression he means from say August '04 to Oct '05.
    However Zidane actually only played the final month of qualifying as he had retired (from internationals) after Portugal 2004 and was then coaxed out of retirement as France were in danger of not qualifying for 06. He came back in Sept05 and they qualified in Oct05. His comeback co-incided with an upturn in that qualifying campaign.

    Even if Zidane was 'slow and ponderous' in that month (which is open to dispute) he was still doing fine for Real that 05/06 season, second highest scorer.

    The quote in OP gives the impression he went from a Jim Royle level of inactivity up to some some superhuman performance, which doesn't really fit the facts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    But there are loads of techniques that help you to recover quicker from games and injuries. Getting fresh blood cycled into your system to improve oxygen circulation to your muscles, testosterone patches to increase the recuperation of damaged or fatigued muscles etc. That's what they reckon is happening in the NBA, where the players unions have blocked any attempts to make blood testing mandatory in that sport.


    You need to be quite strong for NBA though. Obviously doping will help footballers but it doesn't give them the kind of advantages it would to cycling, baseball, nfl, rugby etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    You need to be quite strong for NBA though. Obviously doping will help footballers but it doesn't give them the kind of advantages it would to cycling, baseball, nfl, rugby etc.

    Agreed. Most of the stuff will be secondary level performance enhancing but then, a **** load of footballers have tested positive for steroid use, specifically nandrolone:

    Jaap Stam, Edgar Davids, Frank de Boer, Christophe Dugarry, Fernando Couto, Josep Guardiola, Mohamed Kallon to name a few.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,832 ✭✭✭✭Blatter


    I agree but when I look at how they reached those heights I just don't see it mainly down to drugs. I don't think comparisons with cycling or athletics are accurate either. Cycling seems to be a sport that realies all on physical skills - strength and enduance mainly, same with athletics. In football you can be a big, strong,fast, fit etc as you like, if you can't control a football you are toast. I don't see a Barca/Spainish team that is fitter than everyone else, I don't see a team that is bigger/stronger than everyone else I just see a team that has a group of players that is far better with a football than everyone else.

    I don't think doping could have much to do with their technique but I'd imagine it could easily help improve concentration levels and key physical attributes like acceleration, power and stamina which would have a huge impact on performance in a football match.

    Have I thought before that Barca have extreme fitness relative to other teams? I'd be lying if I said I didn't. I remember a couple of years ago Ferguson was talking about them at a press conference (he wasn't hinting at doping or anything illegal btw) and he was amazed at how they managed to keep playing mostly the same players in every game and maintain such a high performance level. I remember him saying that he didn't know how they managed it and wondered if it could be the climate over in Spain that helps.

    The thing about doping is that it's so secretive we don't know what techniques clubs use and so it's very difficult for us to determine to what level they are using them.

    For all we know every top level club could dope but some might be ahead of the game relative to others.
    Zidane speculation is flawed though. Talks about Zidane being slow and ponderous in qualifying for 2006 which gives the impression he means from say August '04 to Oct '05.
    However Zidane actually only played the final month of qualifying as he had retired (from internationals) after Portugal 2004 and was then coaxed out of retirement as France were in danger of not qualifying for 06. He came back in Sept05 and they qualified in Oct05. His comeback co-incided with an upturn in that qualifying campaign.

    Even if Zidane was 'slow and ponderous' in that month (which is open to dispute) he was still doing fine for Real that 05/06 season, second highest scorer.

    The quote in OP gives the impression he went from a Jim Royle level of inactivity up to some some superhuman performance, which doesn't really fit the facts.

    Tbh, and I say this as a huge Zidane fan, I didn't think he was great during most of the 05/06 season despite scoring 9 goals. I was hugely surprised at the level of performance he achieved against extremely good Brazilain side in the WC QFs. Not saying he was definitely doping but imo questions have to be asked especially given his links to that doctor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 633 ✭✭✭Bertser


    The 'blood-spinning' method mentioned in the first post isn't deemed as doping anymore, it was banned but lifted shortly after as it was argued it only helped boost recovery time and didn't boost performance. Not sure where I stand on the issue really.

    EDIT: Seems Spurs are using it on Jermain Defoe currently, should probably be something either everyone or no one can use.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭SantryRed


    Only finished reading a book called "The Secret Race" which is all about Lance Armstrong and his team mate Tyler Hamilton's doping.

    He always goes on about how lax the doping laws were in Spain compared to other places. After the French started to really clamp down on drug taking at the Tour De France, Armstrong upped sticks and moved to Spain because it was a lot easier to get and take the drugs without problems.

    When you look at it, and how the likes of Barcelona and Spain started dominating, Nadal started dominating in tennis, Contador was dominating in cycling and subsequently caught, it does make you wonder is anything going on.

    I don't know if EPO would be as effective in football as a proper endurance sport like cycling or tennis, but I'd say recovery drugs, like Testosterone are being used heavily.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,245 ✭✭✭Esse85


    elefant wrote: »
    Maybe I'm missing something here, but why are Protein Supplements even being mentioned in this thread? :confused:
    There's uneducated idiots on here that think PED's are the same as supplements like whey, creatine etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,424 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    How so?
    I'm interested as it's something you rarely hear mentioned about the game, less so that even soccer.

    Sorry only getting back now very busy working today.

    Well for starter the amount of Rugby players prescribed as asmatic is quiet high.

    Number of Irish players are.

    I cant name any schools but I know its rife in School rugby. Played with lad before and he told me some horror stories. I understand if you think im talking BS too btw, but if you know anything about it then you would now I would not be first person to make such a comment.
    Would be very rare. Very.

    In soccer or Rugby?

    I think its more common then people think.


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