Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

New website idea, just need the right team of people!!

  • 11-01-2013 4:18pm
    #1
    thomas98798
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭


    Hi Everyone.

    I have a question here that some of you may be able to answer.

    Q) If you had to come up with a working website, similar in operation to facebook. What sort of team would you put together. (i.e. what skill sets would be required)

    :further info:
    * Assume that the poster has no experience in computing,
    * Poster needs to assemble a team to complete this operation within 4-5 months.
    * Site needs to be able to cater for at least 50,000-100,000 users initially. In order to prove the site works, model works, idea works. (A beta mode of sorts)

    Hope you can humor me on this one,

    p.s.Think you have what it takes to create something like this, then please feel free to pm me.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    Dupe of http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=82633812#post82633812


  • #3
    thomas98798
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭thomas98798


    Thanks Chrome,
    Regarding your question about how much money do I have to invest, I'd like to know first how much would you think is adequate to get something like this off the ground.


  • #4
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    thomas98798 wrote: »
    Thanks Chrome,
    Regarding your question about how much money do I have to invest, I'd like to know first how much would you think is adequate to get something like this off the ground.

    You haven't given any details..... so its impossible to price. From what you have said I wouldn't say anything less than about 10-20k


  • #5
    Corkbah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭Corkbah


    thomas ... if you watch the facebook movie.

    it doesn't go into detail on how facebook runs...it drags on about needing more money, needing more "interns", needing more money, needing to expand .

    to create Facebook or similar you would need:

    Developers
    Understanding of your limits
    Programmers
    money
    More money
    Servers
    more servers
    yet again more money
    graphic designers
    multitude of databases or access to databases (which legally could be an issue)
    and loads of other things I know nothing about.

    I'm in a simliar position but simply cant afford to create "my vision" .... and if/when I talk to developers/programmers etc ... I dont understand if they know what I want and I dont understand what they are saying !!


  • #6
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    A demonstrable interest in the market you're intending to enter would be a good start.

    What research have you done into this business/market (or is your initial post the research)?

    As ChRoMe said without more detail you are unlikely to get any reasonable answers and you're even less likely to convince someone to 'help you create something like this'.


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    maxmarmalade
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭maxmarmalade


    You could look at using a social network engine to prove the concept. The leading one is Elgg (www.elgg.org). You would probably still need to hire someone to customise to a level where you have a minimum viable product. But all core feature of a social network are already there.


  • #8
    thomas98798
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭thomas98798


    Cheers everyone just the type of responses I'm looking for.

    Corkbah I can see how were both in the same boat. I have a vision for for what I want this site to do and work, but its seems like I've hit a brick wall before I started.

    I suppose in terms of looking for a price for this project, I was hoping if the was someone who had previous experience here with other similar projects and could give an example case study.

    Thanks Maxmarmalade and Graham I'll check out that link.


  • #9
    amen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭amen


    OP

    its not that people won't give you a concrete answers its more that your questions are very vague.

    Supporting 50,000-100,000 users. That could be really simple if all the users does is login and creates a single post a day. On the other hand if they are posting 100's of times a day and servers are very busy you will need to extra hardware to support the users.

    A team to support this. Hmm well assuming a team means 4-5 people who know what they are doing and that you have a well defined plan and defined deliverables/specifications and you are getting good people so you will be paying them maybe 45K a years so at 5 people for say 6 months thats approx 110K in wages alone.

    I haven't included testers or a QA Team.
    You will also need development PCs, Dev Servers, Test Servers etc

    Don't forget you will need to pay for Bandwidth which could be 10k+ a month.
    You also need to figure in redundancy so you a server dies, network goes down that you site is still accessible.

    You also need to have a backup strategy.

    If you have any questions fell free to send me a pm.


  • #10
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,253 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    you also need a crap load of venture capital to pay for everything for the first X years until your site starts to make money somehow.


  • #11
    fergalr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    thomas98798 wrote: »
    Hi Everyone.

    I have a question here that some of you may be able to answer.

    Q) If you had to come up with a working website, similar in operation to facebook. What sort of team would you put together. (i.e. what skill sets would be required)

    :further info:
    * Assume that the poster has no experience in computing,
    * Poster needs to assemble a team to complete this operation within 4-5 months.
    * Site needs to be able to cater for at least 50,000-100,000 users initially. In order to prove the site works, model works, idea works. (A beta mode of sorts)

    Hope you can humor me on this one,

    p.s.Think you have what it takes to create something like this, then please feel free to pm me.


    You should read this:
    http://www.quora.com/Engineering-Management/Why-are-software-development-task-estimations-regularly-off-by-a-factor-of-2-3/answer/Michael-Wolfe



    You are sending all the signals that indicate you aren't serious, and you don't know what you are doing. Hence, I'd be inclined to recommend you bias towards disregarding anyone that PMs you, as they are probably clueless too, or want to take your money.


    Imagine I was asking you 'how much would it cost me to find somewhere to live'?

    You are going to want to know what I mean.
    Do I want to rent a room somewhere?
    Or to buy somewhere?
    Am I looking to buy a 1 bedroom apartment?
    Or maybe I want to build a 40 room mansion?

    The cost varies so much depending on what I have on mind.
    You wont really be able to answer my question.

    If Bill Gates walks up to you, and asks you how much it will cost him to find somewhere to live in Dublin, you are probably going to give him a very different answer, than if a poor student walks up to you and asks.

    Because their requirements are so different.

    Similarly, you have not provided enough information for anyone to give you a serious answer.
    You've said the equivalent of 'I want somewhere to live', but people need a lot more to go on than that.


    One big problem in your question, is you said 'similar to operation to facebook'.
    This will confuse everyone.

    Facebook have to do a lot of hard things, because they want to support so many users at once. Even if they get lots more users joining than they expect. And because they want to be able to be reliable when a lot of people are using Facebook.
    They also have to worry about security and privacy and so on.
    The site is a lot more complicated than it looks.

    You could get someone to build you a website which is *superficially* similar to Facebook, capturing the very basic Facebook functionality, (each user gets a webpage, that shows friends, and some custom content, without being scalable, and maybe based off an existing platform) for a small amount of money. Tens of thousands of euro, probably. Someone could make you an even simpler site, that didn't really do much, for even cheaper. But it probably wouldn't be likely to support 100000 users, certainly not with a high level of activity, and it won't do whatever you have in mind sufficiency well to make your users happy.

    If you wanted to build a site that has the robustness and features of Facebook, its very hard to guess how much it would cost. Millions. (and millions etc).


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    maxmarmalade
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭maxmarmalade


    @fergalr

    There are many social network engines. Elgg is fantastic, providing all core features such as friending, messaging, access-driven contant, for free. There is also Oxwall, which I haven't used but looks good. There is no need to build core features of social networks when open-source solutions already available.

    I agree with large money regarding robustness etc.


  • #13
    fergalr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    maxmarmalade wrote: »
    @fergalr

    There are many social network engines. Elgg is fantastic, providing all core features such as friending, messaging, access-driven contant, for free. There is also Oxwall, which I haven't used but looks good. There is no need to build core features of social networks when open-source solutions already available.

    I agree with large money regarding robustness etc.

    That looks cool.
    I haven't used any of those products, but definitely, if an off-the-shelf online social network is sufficient for the OP, then that's the way to go.

    The devil is in the details though - what does 'similar in operation to Facebook' mean, in the OPs post?


  • #14
    maxmarmalade
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭maxmarmalade


    fergalr wrote: »
    That looks cool.
    I haven't used any of those products, but definitely, if an off-the-shelf online social network is sufficient for the OP, then that's the way to go.

    The devil is in the details though - what does 'similar in operation to Facebook' mean, in the OPs post?

    That's up to OP to clear up, it's vague alright. I always tell clients: dont build an e-commerce shop. And dont build a social network. Free open-ource solutions out there. Free open-source twitter coming soon im sure:)


  • #15
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    thomas98798 wrote: »
    Q) If you had to come up with a working website, similar in operation to facebook. What sort of team would you put together. (i.e. what skill sets would be required)

    :further info:
    * Assume that the poster has no experience in computing,
    * Poster needs to assemble a team to complete this operation within 4-5 months.
    * Site needs to be able to cater for at least 50,000-100,000 users initially. In order to prove the site works, model works, idea works. (A beta mode of sorts)
    It is very difficult to tell as you've simply asked a very generic "what do I need to build/run a Web portal/solution". Some resources (e.g. design) could probably be outsourced, at least to begin with, but others (e.g. development), you'd probably need at one or perhaps two of, if you want to get it up and running within five months.

    Then you need to have requirements that can be pinned down into a technical specification. If you're lucky you'll get an experienced developer who can do this. Then there's formal testing (getting your mates to do this for you is not the same thing). And then there's moderation and customer support.

    Marketing is another area you've not really considered. The 'if you build it, they will come' model doesn't work on the Web, so if you want to get 50,000 to 100,000 users initially, you are going to be putting a fair bit of resources on doing so, and that will cost money - one rule of thumb I've heard is whatever your development budget is, your marketing budget is probably going to be double that.

    Even at that there's no guarantee you'll ever get that number of users; if your site caters to any specific group or demographic (e.g. Ireland), those sort of figures can be difficult to come by.

    Then there's hosting (a poor hosting strategy can either result in you throwing a lot of money away or your site collapsing).

    I won't go into what business plan, if any, you might have. Or how long you'll need to be operating before you become self sufficient financially; thus requiring that you go in with a war chest. Or if your team is going to be composed of employees, contractors/consultants or business partners - if the last, I suggest you read this post here.

    Honestly, the development is going to be the least of your worries. For something as ambitious as you appear to be suggesting, you won't be spending less than about €20k, for development and design alone. Then there's testing, hosting, marketing, changes (which in turn will come from ongoing market research), and so on. And you'll have to do this for a while before you can generate enough revenue to pay for it all; over €200k is my guess, to cover this and keep you going for a year to 18 months.


  • #16
    Evil Phil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,468 ✭✭✭Evil Phil


    ... similar in operation to facebook.

    And that's where you lost pretty much everybody. Social media has been done, in fact the bubble burst when instagram sold for $1 billion. That doesn't mean there isn't money in it, just not the ridiculous money that was handed out like candy as angel funding because somebody said "Social Media" and/or "Disruption". Imho anway.

    However, perhaps you're different. The Corinthian's post is spot on. To add my own two cent: technical details aren't that important at this stage - you can hire those skills in when you have seed capital. What you need to know is if there is a market for this offering of yours, how are you going to monetize your offering, and how you're going to fund your company and your life until you start making that money.


  • #17
    thomas98798
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭thomas98798


    Thanks guys. Yes I am being very vague but I'm sure that you can understand why. There's no point sticking an idea, which is still just an idea up on a site like boards.
    To be honest I came up with this idea about 3 days ago, drew some diagrams, outlining how I envisage users to use the site, and then posted the question to see who I would need to turn my vision into a usable site.

    When I say similar to Facebook, I really mean that it will be a platform that will allow users to connect in a similar way. Probably should have just said social network and not mentioned the word facebook. I guess I lost 100% credibility using that word, but let me try and redeem myself.

    The original question, really is asking, what skill sets do I need to employ.
    Imagine when Faceboook started first. It was just one school (Harvard 14-15k students) so facebook was probably allot different to how it looks today, I read somewhere that none of the original code from Zuckerberg is currently being used on the site. What was important about Zuckerberg's original platform was that it allowed users the needed functionality, and was also capable of demonstrating to VCs that with investment they could hold on to these users and increase numbers.

    I don't image I'm going to knock on a developers door and say build this, the brief being....make it similar to facebook but add ........

    The responses guys have been great. some fantastic links there, even the one to the previous question posted on boards.

    I'm very serious about this, and I'm not here to waste anyone's time. If any of you can recommend any articles/websites that cover this, or even case studies/business plans. I really appreciate all of the responses so far, great to see it.


  • #18
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    If your own research tells you the initial maximum size for Facebook was circa 14k users why are you targeting a site to support 50k-100k users?

    Decide what is the minimum feature set your site can launch with, build it, launch it and go from there if it gains any traction. That way you haven't blown a six figure sum to find out if its a runner.


  • #19
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    So you think you can build something bigger and better than Google+ or with more press and support than Diaspora?

    The idea is not good enough imo, the research is 100% lacking if you think you can even somewhat do it for that sort of money and timeframe.


  • #20
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,345 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    You'll also need an architect. To support any growth in users then your system needs to be scalable which means designing around something like Amazon AWS or Microsoft Azure. You can start small and grow as required provided your design facilitates growth.

    I'd also caution about using an open source solution as people mention. Not that they aren't good but that if you need to significantly deviate from their design and model then it will be very difficult. But as a proof of concept to get up and running it would be fine.


  • #21
    thomas98798
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭thomas98798


    Conor thanks for your comments. I have a vision for what I want, and I really do believe others will buy into it. The research is ongoing, so I would agree with you that the research is not complete.
    You'll also need an architect. To support any growth in users then your system needs to be scalable which means designing around something like Amazon AWS or Microsoft Azure. You can start small and grow as required provided your design facilitates growth.

    Jimmy thanks for the tip re architect, I can see a picture beginning to build up here as to what sort of team I'm going to require.

    As I have many ideas as to what I want this site to do, who would be the best person to speak with regarding this i.e. should i speak with a IT manager, software engineer, software architect ??


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    amen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭amen


    To support any growth in users then your system needs to be scalable which means designing around something like Amazon AWS or Microsoft Azure

    Sorry but why ? There are other ways to tackle the scalability and reliability issues. Allowing a third party vendor to manage this may not be the way to go.


  • #23
    Colonel Panic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭Colonel Panic


    Using AWS or Azure is a pretty compelling alternative to your own data centre not that you especially need to design around them, unless you plan to leverage some of their more interesting features.

    They don't manage anything, they just offer metered services that you do what you want with.


  • #24
    fergalr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    thomas98798 wrote: »
    Thanks guys. Yes I am being very vague but I'm sure that you can understand why. There's no point sticking an idea, which is still just an idea up on a site like boards.
    To be honest I came up with this idea about 3 days ago, drew some diagrams, outlining how I envisage users to use the site, and then posted the question to see who I would need to turn my vision into a usable site.

    You are much too early to be at the stage when you are trying to find someone who wants to turn your vision into a usable site.

    I would recommend you spend a lot more than 3 days work thinking about this idea, researching it, talking to potential users, finding out what the users currently do, etc, before you even think about trying to find someone to implement it.

    Maybe try write down answers to some of these questions (particularly the earlier ones):
    http://startupwiki.ie/wiki/Questions_that_investors_can_ask

    Find some startup accelerator application forms, and start filling them out.
    Not to apply - but because they'll help you see what you need to be thinking about.

    thomas98798 wrote: »
    When I say similar to Facebook, I really mean that it will be a platform that will allow users to connect in a similar way. Probably should have just said social network and not mentioned the word facebook. I guess I lost 100% credibility using that word, but let me try and redeem myself.

    Here's the question - would existing software, that had the same functionality as a social network, be suitable for your needs?
    Could you go with off the shelf software, or do you need custom software written?

    thomas98798 wrote: »
    The original question, really is asking, what skill sets do I need to employ.

    That question is irrelevant, unless you are hugely personally wealthy, and have money to waste.
    You can't employ a team people to build this for you, unless you are rich.

    It is too expensive, and no one will give you money with your current level of expertise (both technical+domain).

    What you really need is a technical co-founder.
    However, you won't find anyone competent with your current understanding of what you want to build, so what you need to do is loads of homework.

    thomas98798 wrote: »
    Imagine when Faceboook started first. It was just one school (Harvard 14-15k students) so facebook was probably allot different to how it looks today, I read somewhere that none of the original code from Zuckerberg is currently being used on the site. What was important about Zuckerberg's original platform was that it allowed users the needed functionality, and was also capable of demonstrating to VCs that with investment they could hold on to these users and increase numbers.

    Right; you always try build the simplest possible version first, that creates real value for the users - the minimal viable product - and take it from there.

    thomas98798 wrote: »
    I don't image I'm going to knock on a developers door and say build this, the brief being....make it similar to facebook but add ........

    The responses guys have been great. some fantastic links there, even the one to the previous question posted on boards.

    I'm very serious about this, and I'm not here to waste anyone's time. If any of you can recommend any articles/websites that cover this, or even case studies/business plans. I really appreciate all of the responses so far, great to see it.

    You don't seem like you are serious; but giving you the benefit of the doubt:

    Start reading lots about the process of building tech companies:
    http://www.fortunepick.com/blog-article/a-list-of-must-read-books-for-startups-and-entrepreneurs


    Learn everything you can about the people whose problem you want to solve.
    Talk to them, spend time with them, get a job as one of them.

    Do the things that you'll need to do to get a decent technical co-founder to partner with you (learn the space, learn the problem, get to know your potential customers/users, learn about the process of building startups etc)
    Expect it to take a while.
    Consider it a good indicator that you've done enough work for other people to think you are serious.


  • #25
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    thomas98798 wrote: »
    As I have many ideas as to what I want this site to do, who would be the best person to speak with regarding this i.e. should i speak with a IT manager, software engineer, software architect ??
    Unless you're willing to pay for such advice, why would they want to speak with you?

    If you know someone with the technical knowledge who's willing to go for a couple of pints to chew the fat on this idea of yours, well and good, however you're not going to get anything more than very superficial, concept-level, advice.

    For anything more, would require that the technical person would actually spend additional time and resources researching the idea and what is feasible, and unless they're a really, really good friend, they won't. Indeed, unless they're a friend in the first place, they probably won't bother even go as far as chew the fat with you.

    After all, it appears you have close to zero research, how can you expect someone to work on an idea that you've not even been bothered to put any effort into?

    If you're serious about this idea, do a lot of research on it before you approach anyone. Otherwise everyone's time is going to be wasted.


  • #26
    IrishExpat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 298 ✭✭IrishExpat


    First, apologies for this short reply. using the iPhone, but will give a longer response tomorrow.

    I would 'highly' recommend looking up any number of blog posts on the subject of the MVP (minimal viable product) and similar lean-startup methodologies.

    For a social network there is no need to create or develop from scratch, as there as so many open-source platforms (Elgg etc) which can be tailored to your concept.

    I have a lot of advice to offer in this space from my time helping past clients develop from ideation to validation and onto action steps and launch strategies.

    As I said, taking far too long to type on this phone, so thread followed and will come back to it tomorrow.

    The best of luck in your endeavour.


  • #27
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Surprised the cloud hasn't been mentioned yet. Cloud hosting solves your infrastructure problem.


  • #28
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    awec wrote: »
    Surprised the cloud hasn't been mentioned yet. Cloud hosting solves your infrastructure problem.

    Its no where near that simple.........


  • #29
    IrishExpat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 298 ✭✭IrishExpat


    ChRoMe wrote: »
    Its no where near that simple.........

    I wish I could thank twice. All of this talk around 'the cloud', yet it's been reduced to a buzz-word with the lack of knowledge on the topic.


  • #30
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    IrishExpat wrote: »
    I wish I could thank twice. All of this talk around 'the cloud', yet it's been reduced to a buzz-word with the lack of knowledge on the topic.
    There's a lot of Web 'professionals' who don't seem to have a bog of a notion what the 'Cloud' is, in reality. Hardly surprising, as there's a frightening number of same who still don't seem to have grasped the basic client-server paradigm.


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    ChRoMe wrote: »
    Its no where near that simple.........
    It is that simple.

    That's part of the point of it, simple scalability.

    Can you explain what isn't simple about it?


  • #32
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    IrishExpat wrote: »
    I wish I could thank twice. All of this talk around 'the cloud', yet it's been reduced to a buzz-word with the lack of knowledge on the topic.
    At the same time, the lack of knowledge around the cloud is leading people to think that it's more complicated than it really is.

    The major cloud providers have all changed massively over the past year or so, getting off the ground with the cloud (e.g. aws or azure) is unbelievably easy.


  • #33
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    You'll also need an architect. To support any growth in users then your system needs to be scalable which means designing around something like Amazon AWS or Microsoft Azure. You can start small and grow as required provided your design facilitates growth.

    I'd also caution about using an open source solution as people mention. Not that they aren't good but that if you need to significantly deviate from their design and model then it will be very difficult. But as a proof of concept to get up and running it would be fine.
    Colonel Panic wrote: »
    Using AWS or Azure is a pretty compelling alternative to your own data centre not that you especially need to design around them, unless you plan to leverage some of their more interesting features.

    They don't manage anything, they just offer metered services that you do what you want with.

    Actually I was wrong, cloud was mentioned twice in the thread. OP - this is good advice.

    I'm not sure about AWS, but I know Azure has the Azure Web Sites feature which is basic web hosting in the cloud with the scalable cloud benefits. I'd be surprised if AWS didn't have their own version of it.

    Pay for what you use with instant scaling and instant worldwide delivery makes it a good choice for someone with an idea who isn't sure if what they have will be hit or miss.


  • #34
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    awec wrote: »
    It is that simple.

    That's part of the point of it, simple scalability.

    Can you explain what isn't simple about it?

    Throwing more hardware at a problem isint going to solve all scaling issues. Its incredibly naive to consider that to be the only possible bottleneck.


  • #35
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    ChRoMe wrote: »
    Throwing more hardware at a problem isint going to solve all scaling issues. Its incredibly naive to consider that to be the only possible bottleneck.
    Er, more hardware? :confused:

    It's all virtualised, there is no throwing more hardware at anything.

    What problem/bottleneck can he have that would be better solved by traditional hosting as opposed to AWS or Azure?


  • #36
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    awec wrote: »

    Do you understand how the cloud works? :confused: It's all virtualised, there is no throwing more hardware at anything.

    :eek:

    Jesus wept..... I really hope you are not employed somewhere writing code.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    ChRoMe wrote: »
    :eek:

    Jesus wept..... I really hope you are not employed somewhere writing code.
    I do this for a living. This has nothing at all to do with code, no idea why you're bringing that up.

    Try again.

    Are you saying the cloud isn't virtualised? You think that when you scale in the cloud some guy goes and plugs in more servers for you? Ha!

    I'll ask again, what are the bottlenecks that traditional hosting solves that aws or azure doesn't?


  • #38
    Colonel Panic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭Colonel Panic


    What do you do exactly?

    If the software doesn't scale, spinning up another VM won't make much of a difference!


  • #39
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Colonel Panic wrote: »
    What do you do exactly?

    If the software doesn't scale, spinning up another VM won't make much of a difference!

    Of course it won't. You still have to write your software to scale, nobody has denied that.

    My point is that it is MUCH easier and MUCH cheaper to start of using AWS or Azure, given that scaling in future if needed is much faster.

    Better to do that than have to arse about with traditional servers and all that sh!te to be able to handle the extra load.

    Do it correctly at the start and your scaling will consist of you clicking 3 buttons.

    The advantages are there, plain as day. A lot of people are afraid of it because it's new to them.

    I'm a software dev, for one of the major tech companies. Not that that matters.


  • #40
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    awec wrote: »
    This has nothing at all to do with code, no idea why you're bringing that up.
    awec wrote:
    You still have to write your software to scale, nobody has denied that.

    These comments ,at least appear, to be contradicting each other.


  • #41
    Colonel Panic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭Colonel Panic


    It does matter what you do if you throw in the "I do this for a living" claim. It's pretty tiresome. There are plenty of professional devs here, some need to shout it from the rafters, others don't!

    Your original post was a bit hit and run. You didn't really say much apart from the cloud solving infrastructure plans he doesn't have yet!

    As it happens, I agree with out about using cloud based services, but even using something like AWS doesn't take all the pain out of the fact that even for a small application, you could be looking at a few virtual servers running an assortment of operating systems and services.


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    awec wrote: »
    It's all virtualised, there is no throwing more hardware at anything.
    Actually there is; the 'Cloud' is simply a product of hiding this process from the customer so that it appears seamless.

    Or did you think virtualization meant that it's all in some magical dimension where bandwidth, CPU and disk space just expanded magically when needed with no physical presence?

    Ultimately, it may not be a guy plugging in additional servers for you, but a program that effectively does that by giving you the resources of additional servers - the cloud is simply the culmination of software automation in the hosting sector that was already visible to anyone dealing with Rackspace twelve years ago.

    In this regard, if the pricing model is good, using the 'Cloud' can be very beneficial to a start-up company (esp. under Google's old pricing model), but there are many cases where it's a waste of money.
    What problem/bottleneck can he have that would be better solved by traditional hosting as opposed to AWS or Azure?
    Those that are the product of inefficient code, for example.


  • #43
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Colonel Panic wrote: »
    It does matter what you do if you throw in the "I do this for a living" claim. It's pretty tiresome. There are plenty of professional devs here, some need to shout it from the rafters, others don't!

    Your original post was a bit hit and run. You didn't really say much apart from the cloud solving infrastructure plans he doesn't have yet!

    As it happens, I agree with out about using cloud based services, but even using something like AWS doesn't take all the pain out of the fact that even for a small application, you could be looking at a few virtual servers running an assortment of operating systems and services.
    I don't. Seriously, I don't. As I said, it doesn't matter, the beauty about this is that you don't need to have some super degree or some super job to understand what goes on.

    However, if you read back, I had the old "people don't know what the cloud is", "buzzword" etc thrown at me in a thinly veiled attempt to make out like I'd only heard about it in passing and didn't know what I was talking about.

    That got my back up, but if I was rude or annoyed anyone then I apologise for that. :)

    Anyway, I think this particular sub-discussion has been done now, we'll only end up confusing the OP.


  • #44
    kippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,783 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Most important person in your "team" initially, will be your bank manager.


  • #45
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    awec wrote: »
    didn't know what I was talking about.

    As The Corinthian has pointed out in his post, your subsequent responses don't really support you having a body of knowledge. Throwing more hardware at a problem is EXACTLY what AWS does.


  • #46
    Colonel Panic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭Colonel Panic


    ChRoMe wrote: »
    As The Corinthian has pointed out in his post, your subsequent responses don't really support you having a body of knowledge. Throwing more hardware at a problem is EXACTLY what AWS does.

    That's a bit of a generalisation. I mean, that's what scaling is. If you have some front facing web server acting as a proxy for multiple services in the background that all access some database cluster with Memcached on multiple servers sitting in between the DB and app, then scaling the application is a matter of throwing more (virtual) hardware at the problem.

    Of course the software needs to support this as much as it does smart development practices like handling requests asynchronously in multiple threads, for example. I've had miserable experiences with monolithic pieces of software in environments like this.

    It's fine to be dismissive of the Cloud term, but don't knock being able to bang out an EC2 instance in no time, run some scripts, edit a config file and see the load on your DB server drop right before your eyes.


  • #47
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Colonel Panic wrote: »
    That's a bit of a generalisation. I mean, that's what scaling is.
    Indeed, there's certainly a lot more to Cloud services than flexible scaling, but what ChRoMe and I did was correct the erroneous claim when scaling it did not involve "throwing more hardware at anything". Essentially it does do that.
    It's fine to be dismissive of the Cloud term, but don't knock being able to bang out an EC2 instance in no time, run some scripts, edit a config file and see the load on your DB server drop right before your eyes.
    I certainly wouldn't be dismissive, but this tangent in the discussion came about only when someone did the opposite and claimed that "Cloud hosting solves your infrastructure problem". It might, but so does buying your own server farm - doesn't make it the right solution.

    As for the OP, I think it's clear that they're either in the very, very early stages of an idea (far too soon to even contemplate a team) or they were just tyre-kicking. So I suspect, unless they return or we end up on another tangent, this thread has run its course.


  • #48
    clint_silver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,902 ✭✭✭clint_silver


    Starting up with the cloud is a no brainer for me. If he has performance/scalability issues, more resources from AWS may solve at a cheaper cost than buying hardware and renting landscape in a data centre somewhere.

    If OP has scalability problems, the cloud may be the answer, it may not, it depends on many twists and turns his architect and developer take, but either way I think the argument here is several steps down the line from where OP needs to be.

    To get it off the ground, Id suggest discussing with a Professional web development company. Any of the big guys will talk to you briefly to discuss what you need but only a superficial level before advisory costs are agreed upon. It would then be well worth it to pay for a days consultancy. They will discuss the challenges ahead of you more professionaly.

    Remember facebook was an idea (debatable it was his, but hey ho) from a guy who also able to do up a prototype.


  • #49
    fergalr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    clint_silver wrote: »
    To get it off the ground, Id suggest discussing with a Professional web development company. Any of the big guys will talk to you briefly to discuss what you need but only a superficial level before advisory costs are agreed upon. It would then be well worth it to pay for a days consultancy. They will discuss the challenges ahead of you more professionaly.

    I strongly disagree with that advice.

    As I said, I believe the OP needs to do a lot more domain research, and understand what they want to build, and the process of building startups.

    Then the OP needs to try convince a technical co-founder to come on board, rather than trying to pay consultants to build this.


  • #50
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    clint_silver wrote: »
    Remember facebook was an idea (debatable it was his, but hey ho) from a guy who also able to do up a prototype.

    Not to mention being in one of the most exclusive 3rd level educational institutions in the world and therefore had a near limitless access to capital to start the idea.


  • #51
    Colonel Panic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭Colonel Panic


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Indeed, there's certainly a lot more to Cloud services than flexible scaling, but what ChRoMe and I did was correct the erroneous claim when scaling it did not involve "throwing more hardware at anything". Essentially it does do that.

    I certainly wouldn't be dismissive, but this tangent in the discussion came about only when someone did the opposite and claimed that "Cloud hosting solves your infrastructure problem". It might, but so does buying your own server farm - doesn't make it the right solution.

    As for the OP, I think it's clear that they're either in the very, very early stages of an idea (far too soon to even contemplate a team) or they were just tyre-kicking. So I suspect, unless they return or we end up on another tangent, this thread has run its course.

    I get what you mean, I find it hard to resist smirking at Cloud as Golden Hammer suggestions myself and I'm actually a little wary of it having been put in an awkward position developing apps for cloud based platforms in the past where the platform and app didn't gel well together.

    I think the debate is much ado about nothing really, I got the impression ChRoMe was just dismissing the concept of being able to scale with hardware as a Bad Thing when this is far from the truth.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement