Thomas Hauser Article on Floyd Mayweather Jr's Failed Drug Tests

Henno30 · 19-11-2012 5:07pm #1

Strap yourselves in, because this could get wild.

Hauser has written what can only be described as an explosive article in PEDs in boxing, the stand out feature of which is allegations that Floyd Mayweather has had three failed drug tests covered up in recent years.

It's also alleged that the Mayweather's quickly reversed their position and offered an unexpectedly large settlement payment to Pacquiao's lawyers during the recent defamation case when they got wind of the rumour and started to demand the release of documents

http://www.maxboxing.com/news/main-lead/the-ped-mess-part-one

There's a lot of other stuff in there, but here are some of the paragraphs pertaining to the Mayweather allegations:

"On May 20, 2012, a rumor filtered through the drug-testing community that Mayweather had tested positive on three occasions for an illegal performance-enhancing drug.

More specifically, it was rumored that Mayweather’s “A” sample had tested positive on three occasions and, after each positive test, USADA had found exceptional circumstances in the form of inadvertent use and gave Floyd a waiver. This waiver, according to the rumor, negated the need for a test of Floyd’s “B” sample. And because the “B” sample was never tested, a loophole in USADA’s contract with Mayweather and Golden Boy allowed the testing to proceed without the positive “A” sample results being reported to Mayweather’s opponent or the Nevada State Athletic Commission (which had jurisdiction over the fights).

In late-May, Pacquiao’s attorneys heard the rumor. On June 4, 2012, they served document demands and subpoenas on Mayweather, Mayweather Promotions, Golden Boy and USADA calling for the production of all documents that related to PED testing of Mayweather for the Shane Mosley, Victor Ortiz and Miguel Cotto fights.

The documents were not produced. There was a delay in the proceedings while Floyd spent nine weeks in the Clark County Detention Center after pleading guilty to charges of domestic violence and harassment. Upon his release from jail on August 2nd, settlement talks heated up.

On September 25, 2012, a stipulation of settlement ending the defamation case was filed with the court. The parties agreed that the terms of settlement would be kept confidential. Prior to the agreement being signed, two sources with detailed knowledge of the proceedings told this writer that Mayweather’s initial monetary settlement offer was “substantially more” than Pacquiao’s attorneys had expected it would be and an agreement in principle was reached soon afterward.

As part of the settlement, the Mayweathers and Mayweather Promotions issued a statement that read: “Floyd Mayweather Jr., Floyd Mayweather Sr., Roger Mayweather and Mayweather Promotions wish to make it clear that they never intended to claim that Manny Pacquiao has used or is using any performance-enhancing drugs nor are they aware of any evidence that Manny Pacquiao has used performance-enhancing drugs. Manny Pacquiao is a great champion and no one should construe any of our prior remarks as claiming that Manny Pacquiao has used performance-enhancing drugs.”

I don’t know if Floyd Mayweather or Manny Pacquiao has used performance-enhancing drugs or not.

I do know that, if Mayweather’s “A” sample tested positive for a performance-enhancing drug on one or more occasions and he was given a waiver by USADA that concealed this fact from the Nevada State Athletic Commission, his opponent and the public, we have an ingredient that could contribute to the making of a scandal."

boxer.fan · 19-11-2012 5:27pm

gene_tunney · 19-11-2012 5:36pm

In summary: there's a rumour that Floyd's A samples have tested positive for banned substances in the past.

A rumour is a rumour. We need less rumours circulating and more actual substantiated facts.

Henno30 · 19-11-2012 5:51pm

gene_tunney wrote: »

In summary: there's a rumour that Floyd's A samples have tested positive for banned substances in the past.

A rumour is a rumour. We need less rumours circulating and more actual substantiated facts.

Have a look at the GBP stuff in the article. It's pretty damning.

Henno30 · 19-11-2012 6:45pm

The big issue here is whether or not USADA did in fact grant waivers on three separate occasions to Floyd after failed drug tests. If they did, saying it's a big story would be something of an understatement.

What's really suspicious is that Mayweather and USADA lawyers moved to quash the Pacquiao camp's motion for the information related to his tests to be released. If this story grows legs, then pressure will surely mount for those documents to come out. And who knows what they'll actually say.

Frankie Lee · 19-11-2012 9:07pm

Thomas Hauser is a very respected writer so this is definitely a story to take seriously.

megadodge · 19-11-2012 11:19pm

This has all the stench of another American 'superstar' who had failed drug tests covered up while pontificating about the use of drugs in his sport - the hypocritical, two-faced, pompous piece of scum Carl Lewis.

And to think his cheating mug is still appearing on ads to this day as we speak. I often wonder at what age do people's memories stop working ???

Henno30 · 20-11-2012 12:15pm

Part 2 of Hauser's article - http://www.maxboxing.com/news/main-lead/the-ped-mess-part-two

Mainly deals with the Morales failed drug tests in the lead up to the recent fight with Garcia. It seems that Morales had failed 4 tests (2 'A' and 2 'B' samples) and USADA still decided to keep testing him until he came up clean rather than inform the New York State Athletic Commission.

It also seems like the reason Shaefer switched from VADA to USADA as the tester of choice for Golden Boy fights is that USADA give him much greater control over the release of information arising out of positive tests.

The depiction of the Morales affair in this article is one of USADA practically colluding with GBP to keep the Morales tests secret until it was too late to so anything about them. By the time they informed the NYSAC, it was two days before the fight and they were told that the final 'B' sample wouldn't be back until after the fight. Bear in mind that two of his 'B' samples had tested positive already.

If it wasn't for the leaks from within the testing community, it's likely this would never have gotten out in the first place. And the Garcia-Morales testing results are still not available on USADA's website.

Frankie Lee · 20-11-2012 2:22pm

This sums up why boxing needs to be cleaned up urgently.

Someday, if it hasn’t happened already, a fighter who has been using PEDs will kill his opponent in the ring. Thus, in closing, it’s worth remembering the thoughts of Emanuel Steward.

“Boxing isn’t like other sports,” Steward said several months before his death. “In boxing, a human being is getting hit in the head. None of us like to talk about it, but there’s a very real risk of brain damage. So to my way of thinking, anyone in boxing who’s part of using performance-enhancing drugs – I don’t care if it’s the fighter, the trainer, the strength coach, the conditioner, the manager, the promoter – that person is ruining the sport and doing something criminal.”

walshb · 20-11-2012 2:28pm

megadodge wrote: »

This has all the stench of another American 'superstar' who had failed drug tests covered up while pontificating about the use of drugs in his sport - the hypocritical, two-faced, pompous piece of scum Carl Lewis.
???

C'mon, Lewis wasn't a steroid/EPO user. Had he been he would have went sub 9.6 in Seoul. Lewis was a career great. A phenomenal natural talent from a very young age. He was found to have ingested minuscule amounts of a banned substance(s) found in a herbal remedy. Calling him scum is a bit OTT.

gene_tunney · 20-11-2012 2:31pm

walshb wrote: »

C'mon, Lewis wasn't a steroid/EPO user. Had he been he would have went sub 9.6 in Seoul. Lewis was a career great. A phenomenal natural talent from a very young age. He was found to have ingested minuscule amounts of a banned substance(s) found in a herbal remedy. Calling him scum is a bit OTT.

Well he damn sure wasn't an EPO user because that's for endurance.

walshb · 20-11-2012 2:34pm

gene_tunney wrote: »

Well he damn sure wasn't an EPO user because that's for endurance.

True. But I wonder would it be of benefit for training sessions? Allowing you to train harder and for longer. Marion Jones?

walshb · 20-11-2012 2:36pm

"EPO isn't specific to "endurance building", EPO stimulates RBC production. Blood cells are needed for all competitors, sprinters, distances runners, jumpers and throwers. If you breathe or bleed you need red blood cells."

Read more: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1507440#ixzz2Clmea8bJ"

gene_tunney · 20-11-2012 4:05pm

walshb wrote: »

True. But I wonder would it be of benefit for training sessions? Allowing you to train harder and for longer. Marion Jones?

I could see how it could allow harder training alright but that's a bit of a stretch.

walshb wrote: »

"EPO isn't specific to "endurance building", EPO stimulates RBC production. Blood cells are needed for all competitors, sprinters, distances runners, jumpers and throwers. If you breathe or bleed you need red blood cells."

Read more: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1507440#ixzz2Clmea8bJ"

That's just a quote from someone on a forum. I wouldn't get too excited. Endurance athletes benefit most from EPO. I don't think it would benefit sprinters hugely, I'm sure there's lots of better goodies they could be taking.

walshb · 20-11-2012 4:07pm

gene_tunney wrote: »

I could see how it could allow harder training alright but that's a bit of a stretch.

That's just a quote from someone on a forum. I wouldn't get too excited. Endurance athletes benefit most from EPO. I don't think it would benefit sprinters hugely, I'm sure there's lots of better goodies they could be taking.

Not just quotes. Anyway, EPO is a new drug. Wasn't really used until the 90s.

As you said, EPO mainly benefits endurance athletes. But, it can be effective for training sessions for shorter distance athletes.

gene_tunney · 20-11-2012 4:17pm

walshb wrote: »

Not just quotes. Anyway, EPO is a new drug. Wasn't really used until the 90s.

EPO mainly benefits endurance athletes. But, it can be effective for training sessions for shorter distance athletes.

A guy on the forum you linked said it. But yeah, in a 10 second race there's lots of stuff they'd be better off 'supplementing' with!

Henno30 · 20-11-2012 6:44pm

walshb wrote: »

C'mon, Lewis wasn't a steroid/EPO user. Had he been he would have went sub 9.6 in Seoul. Lewis was a career great. A phenomenal natural talent from a very young age. He was found to have ingested minuscule amounts of a banned substance(s) found in a herbal remedy. Calling him scum is a bit OTT.

Lewis was doping. He tested positive at the US olympic trials and the results were binned, along with the results of about 50 other athletes.

walshb · 20-11-2012 6:47pm

Henno30 wrote: »

Lewis was doping. He tested positive at the US olympic trials and the results were binned, along with the results of about 50 other athletes.

Over 100 athletes. Yes, he doped. I am just saying that Lewis was not Ben Johnson. Lewis did not use anabolic steroids. He was cleared by the authorities for inadvertent use. I know, any excuse. He was a true and naturally gifted all time great. Can you imagine Lewis on anabolic steroids? Would Ben Johnson really have beaten him? Look at their careers. Johnson always played second fiddle to Lewis until Ben started using steroids. I understand that Lewis did test positive on three occasions for banned substances, but I don't think he was near the cheat that other athletes were.

I do not lump all drugs cheats together. Some real great athletes have tested positive for banned substances that could have been completely inadvertent or honest mistakes. Other athletes knowingly ingest and take banned substances to gain an advantage.

megadodge · 20-11-2012 7:59pm

walshb wrote: »

Over 100 athletes. Yes, he doped. I am just saying that Lewis was not Ben Johnson. Lewis did not use anabolic steroids. He was cleared by the authorities for inadvertent use. I know, any excuse. He was a true and naturally gifted all time great. Can you imagine Lewis on anabolic steroids? Would Ben Johnson really have beaten him? Look at their careers. Johnson always played second fiddle to Lewis until Ben started using steroids. I understand that Lewis did test positive on three occasions for banned substances, but I don't think he was near the cheat that other athletes were.

I do not lump all drugs cheats together. Some real great athletes have tested positive for banned substances that could have been completely inadvertent or honest mistakes. Other athletes knowingly ingest and take banned substances to gain an advantage.

Sorry Walshie, but that post is just PATHETIC!!!

He cheated.
He got caught.
But because he was the sport's golden boy, they decided not to do anything about it and it's exactly that kind of attitude that has so many people cynical about athletics and cycling ever since.

If you are really so naive as to believe it was "inadvertent", THREE TIMES, from an athlete who already had won Olympic medals and had been competing at the elite level for years and whose training partner tested for the EXACT SAME SUBSTANCES at the same time, I'm afraid your opinion can never again be taken seriously.

Now back to Mayweather.

walshb · 20-11-2012 8:27pm

I never said he did not get caught, or that he did not have banned substances in his sytem. I said that to me he was not a Ben Johnson steroid user. I also never said that I believed that it was inadvertent use. The authorities investigated and they accepted that it was inadvertent use. Nothing pathetic there at all. Just stating the facts surrounding Carl's test fails.

megadodge · 20-11-2012 8:31pm

walshb wrote: »

I never said he did not get caught, or that he did not have banned substances in his sytem. I said that to me he was not a Ben Johnson steroid user. I also never said that I believed that it was inadvertent use. The authorities investigated and they accepted that it was inadvertent use. Nothing pathetic there at all. Just stating the facts surrounding Carl's test fails.

Stop digging. You'll hit Australia soon

walshb · 20-11-2012 8:38pm

Back to Mayweather:

I am a bit jaded with all this drugs and testing in sport. It seems far too complex. I would hate to think that Floyd was using PEDs. Not all the substances found in a person's body are the same. The lists are quite extensive. It must be very difficult even when you know the list to keep the body clean.

Henno30 · 20-11-2012 8:43pm

walshb wrote: »

I never said he did not get caught, or that he did not have banned substances in his sytem. I said that to me he was not a Ben Johnson steroid user. I also never said that I believed that it was inadvertent use. The authorities investigated and they accepted that it was inadvertent use. Nothing pathetic there at all. Just stating the facts surrounding Carl's test fails.

Inadvertent use

walshb · 20-11-2012 8:50pm

Henno30 wrote: »

Inadvertent use

That is what they said. Are you saying it's not at all possible? C'mon, even being careful an athlete could get caught out. Yes, three times is takin' the p&^^. But, I am not sure how the tests were carried out. Were they three tests, and each time he gets caught, knowing that he had failed the first and the second, or was it three tests that returned the same ONE result?

supersean1999 · 24-11-2012 11:12pm

id imagine quiet a lot of the top boxers use dodgy stuff. hopkins. mosley .were are. juiced to there eye balls. as is pac man. so nothing suprises me.

gene_tunney · 25-11-2012 1:04am

supersean1999 wrote: »

id imagine quiet a lot of the top boxers use dodgy stuff. hopkins. mosley .were are. juiced to there eye balls. as is pac man. so nothing suprises me.

I don't believe Pac is. He has none of the hallmarks. Quite a few have been caught using illegal substances, here's a few off the top of my head:

Toney
Roy Jones Jnr (androstenedione)
Vargas
Holyfield (anabolic steroids - can't remember which compound)
Mosley (EPO and steroids)
Tarver
Olubamiwo (17 different substances lol)
Berto
Peterson (testosterone)
Tommy Morrison
Vitali Klitschko (amateur)
Botha
Mayorga
Orlando Salido (nandrolone)
Briggs (asthma)
Enzo Macarinelli (dexaprine - methylhexaneamine)
Richard Hall androstenedione
JCC - furosemide

Henno30 · 25-11-2012 1:13am

gene_tunney wrote: »

I don't believe Pac is. He has none of the hallmarks. Quite a few have been caught using illegal substances, here's a few off the top of my head:

Apart from moving up in weight like it was nothing and refusing to take drug tests :pac:

supersean1999 · 25-11-2012 1:17am

gene_tunney wrote: »

I don't believe Pac is. He has none of the hallmarks. Quite a few have been caught using illegal substances, here's a few off the top of my head:

Toney
Roy Jones Jnr (androstenedione)
Vargas
Holyfield (anabolic steroids - can't remember which compound)
Mosley (EPO and steroids)
Tarver
Olubamiwo (17 different substances lol)
Berto
Peterson (testosterone)
Tommy Morrison
Vitali Klitschko (amateur)
Botha
Mayorga
Orlando Salido (nandrolone)
Briggs (asthma)
Enzo Macarinelli (dexaprine - methylhexaneamine)
Richard Hall androstenedione
JCC - furosemide

his head got bigger, his punch resistance got better, he went up through the weights getting stronger and quicker, pretty dodgy i think,

gene_tunney · 25-11-2012 1:58am

supersean1999 wrote: »

his head got bigger, his punch resistance got better, he went up through the weights getting stronger and quicker, pretty dodgy i think,

His head didn't get bigger. Sorry to be so abrupt but I've studied steroids and know a hell of a lot more than most about them.

1. Steroids can't make your head bigger. Human Growth Hormone can, but it would make other parts of your body bigger as well. People who produce too much HGH have a condition called acromegaly and have a distinct appearance which Pac doesn't have.

2. His head is no bigger. Here's him as a kid:

3. His punch resistance didn't improve, it was always excellent. Lennox Lewis had a great chin but was caught on the button twice and that was it. Same with Pac. Also, one of Pac's was a bodyshot, which often requires mental strength, Pac also has a big skeleton, 8 inch wrists, and so it was natural for him to absorb punches well.

4. Are you suggesting that taking steroids would increase his ability to take a punch anyway? How would that work? It wouldn't. Did it help RJJ? His chin deteriorated in the years after he was caught using anabolic steroids.

5. He didn't get stronger and faster. He certainly lost speed. He was at his fastest as a lightweight and was visibly slower at welter. He's stronger because he got a good trainer who taught hi, how to punch with better technique and thus power, and as I said already his naturally big skeleton was built for the weight. He was lighter when he was younger due to starvation as a teen. He fought to feed himself.

6. He flew up through the weights did he? Nope, wrong again. Exact same as Mayweather.

The boxing public are so ignorant of steroids its amazing.

Henno30 · 25-11-2012 2:19am

I'm generally on the side of those who point to the similarity in weight progression of Mayweather and Pacquiao, but....

He weighs in at 129lbs on 14/3/08 to face Juan Manuel Marquez.

He weighs in at 142lbs just nine months later to fight Oscar De La Hoya, looking this ripped:

Manny%2BPacquiao%2B-%2BFilipino%2BBoxer%2B-%2BWorld%2BChampion%2B%252820%2529-784097.jpg

Manny%2BPacquiao%2B-%2BFilipino%2BBoxer%2B-%2BWorld%2BChampion%2B%252820%2529-784097.jpg

re-hydrating to 148.5lbs come fight night.

The least you can say of it is that it's unusual.

gene_tunney · 25-11-2012 2:23am

His fight night weight rarely fluctuated even when he ascended the weight classes, he just used to work a lot harder to make weight.

Also, that's not really ripped by Pac's standards:

Henno30 · 25-11-2012 2:30am

Still a huge jump in 9 months, no matter what way you spin it. I reject most of the arguments put forward re Pac's alleged doping, but jumps in weight of that nature are hard to explain as a product of natural muscle growth.

gene_tunney · 25-11-2012 2:37am

Henno30 wrote: »

Still a huge jump in 9 months, no matter what way you spin it. I reject most of the arguments put forward re Pac's alleged doping, but jumps in weight of that nature are hard to explain as a product of natural muscle growth.

I'll explain. He didn't jump weight. He dehyrdated and starved himself to make weight for Marquez. 9 months later he didn't starve himself and was closer to his natural weight.

Pac weighed in for the Marquez fight at 145 pounds on the night. Proof:

So in the 9 months he actually gained no weight, just didn't drain himself. That's as conclusive as it gets.

megadodge · 25-11-2012 2:45am

Henno30 wrote: »

Still a huge jump in 9 months, no matter what way you spin it. I reject most of the arguments put forward re Pac's alleged doping, but jumps in weight of that nature are hard to explain as a product of natural muscle growth.

It has absolutely nothing to do with 'natural muscle growth' and everything to do with not having to diet. Do any of you accuseers know the lengths ALL top class boxers go to in order to cut weight? I often wonder how they have any energy to fight at all.

Jesus, Pac weighs 12 pounds more in 9 months cos he can eat whatever he wants, yet Ricky Hatton regularly put on 16+ pounds in 24 HOURS after a weighin and you find Pac's gain "hard to explain"????

It's really basic stuff. Plus Pac's on-the-night weights remained virtually unchanged from his super-feather days to his welter days, as another poster posted here in an earlier thread.

Henno30 · 25-11-2012 2:48am

Very interesting. I didn't realise he was 145 on the night against Marquez.

That does raise an additional question though. 16lbs is a very significant re-hydration for a SFW. How did he have so much energy in his fights if he was draining himself to that extent?

gene_tunney · 25-11-2012 2:52am

Henno30 wrote: »

Very interesting. I didn't realise he was 145 on the night against Marquez.

That does raise an additional question though. 16lbs is a very significant re-hydration for a SFW. How did he have so much energy in his fights if he was draining himself to that extent?

...because he rehydrated and refed himself to 145. If he was fighting at 130 that would be different.

Henno30 · 25-11-2012 2:53am

megadodge wrote: »

It has absolutely nothing to do with 'natural muscle growth' and everything to do with not having to diet. Do any of you accuseers know the lengths ALL top class boxers go to in order to cut weight? I often wonder how they have any energy to fight at all.

Jesus, Pac weighs 12 pounds more in 9 months cos he can eat whatever he wants, yet Ricky Hatton regularly put on 16+ pounds in 24 HOURS after a weighin and you find Pac's gain "hard to explain"????

It's really basic stuff. Plus Pac's on-the-night weights remained virtually unchanged from his super-feather days to his welter days, as another poster posted here in an earlier thread.

Woah, woah. woah! Don't get so hormonal now. That's where the pactard stereotype comes from.

Pacquiao's ascent through the weight divisions is highly unusual. In a sport where testing is practically non-existent, and where the rewards for success are phenomenal, these questions have to be asked.

Henno30 · 25-11-2012 2:58am

gene_tunney wrote: »

...because he rehydrated and refed himself to 145. If he was fighting at 130 that would be different.

But the starvation process still has a dramatic impact on the athlete's body, and the majority of the time it was a significant impact on performance. Manny had way more energy and way more gas in the tank than guys who weren't putting themselves through nearly as much to make weight.

Frankie Lee · 25-11-2012 3:00am

A thought it was Pacquaio's use of Alex Ariza as strength and conditioning coach that aroused suspicion. Personally I suspect that 50%+ of world class boxers are taking something illegal an nothing will change until there is a single governing body and a clampdown on corruption. The chances of that happening are very slim.

Henno30 · 25-11-2012 3:15am

Frankie Lee wrote: »

A thought it was Pacquaio's use of Alex Ariza as strength and conditioning coach that aroused suspicion. Personally I suspect that 50%+ of world class boxers are taking something illegal an nothing will change until there is a single governing body and a clampdown on corruption. The chances of that happening are very slim.

That's pretty much how I look at it. I wouldn't ever go the whole "they're all it" route, because that's the attitude the cheats live by. But if you want to evaluate the possibility of a certain behaviour arising you just have to look at the conditions.

Boxing is an extremely demanding sport, but if you're successful, the rewards are extremely significant. At a certain level, the difference between winning and losing fights really is massive.

On the other hand you have testing regimes that are utterly useless. Even the USADA/VADA style testing adopted by GBP only covers the training camp, and even at that there are some major question marks over USADA's protocols in particular. There's no out of competition testing, apart from in isolated cases like Donaire's where the fighter volunteers for it.

So you've got huge performance benefits from doping, major rewards for high performance levels, and almost zero chance of getting caught. That pretty much guarantees that there's doping in the sport.

Of course the nature of boxing is such that doping can only ever carry the athlete so far. It's not like cycling or athletics where the physical dimension is almost the only factor. Boxing outcomes are heavily based on technical ability. Pacquiao's left hand, Mayweather's defence, or JMM's counter-punching can't be created by chemicals. That stuff is the product of training and experience. So you won't ever get Lance Armstrongs in boxing.

But, it can still tip the balance at the highest level. And the sad reality is that certain fighters will always carry that question mark because of the fact that there was not an adequate testing regime to demonstrate their cleanliness.

megadodge · 25-11-2012 3:24am

Henno30 wrote: »

Woah, woah. woah! Don't get so hormonal now. That's where the pactard stereotype comes from.

Pacquiao's ascent through the weight divisions is highly unusual. In a sport where testing is practically non-existent, and where the rewards for success are phenomenal, these questions have to be asked.

Floyd Mayweather - "have you seen the size of his head".

Using that as an argument creates an even worse stereotype (and I know it wasn't you, but you let it slide). At least my argument is logical and based on facts ie. heavy-duty dieting and his fight-night weights haven't changed.

It's very simple, if you do your research, which is why I get so annoyed at the non-thinking posts that accompany this issue. Gene Tunney only a few posts ago posted a chart showing an almost identical rise in both Pac's and Mayweather's weight, yet it's ignored. In fairness, I like your posts in general, so I'm not really having a go at you, just your viewpoint on this subject.

Henry Armstrong did a very similar rise through the weights back in the 1930's/40's which shows it can be done. And don't forget Henry was robbed of the MIDDLE title in a challenge by a draw decision.

Henno30 · 25-11-2012 3:26am

Frankie Lee wrote: »

A thought it was Pacquaio's use of Alex Ariza as strength and conditioning coach that aroused suspicion.

The Mayweather's were the first to start touting the PEDs line, but what aroused suspicion and made the story grow legs was Pacquiao's repeated refusal to undergo the same USADA testing as Floyd for any potential fight. And the fact that his excuses included such beauts as a fear of needles when the guy has tattoos all over his body.

gene_tunney · 25-11-2012 1:32pm

Henno30 wrote: »

...

I like the way you ignored my chart on Pac and May's ascent through the weight classes and are continuing to claim Pac's weight gain was unnatural.

Henno30 · 25-11-2012 3:56pm

gene_tunney wrote: »

I like the way you ignored my chart on Pac and May's ascent through the weight classes and are continuing to claim Pac's weight gain was unnatural.

I didn't ignore it.

gene_tunney · 25-11-2012 5:15pm

Henno30 wrote: »

I didn't ignore it.

Ok.

endswell · 25-11-2012 9:10pm

megadodge wrote: »

It has absolutely nothing to do with 'natural muscle growth' and everything to do with not having to diet. Do any of you accuseers know the lengths ALL top class boxers go to in order to cut weight? I often wonder how they have any energy to fight at all.

...then u see the lengths some of the kids in the various champs are going to make weight, then after weighing in eat a sh!tload of mcdonalds and crisps, then wonder why they were so knackered after one round...

cheers gene, great info there.

walshb · 26-11-2012 9:23am

As to Manny, I have to agree with the natural weight progression. Training like an animal and eating what he wants. That will simply see a less ripped fighter, but a bigger framed fighter. He will no longer look ripped/skeletal, he will look toned and fed! He has really gained 10-12 lbs all in all. Jeez, one could gain that in a day or two. He does it over 9-12 months and it's down to drugs?

cowzerp · 26-11-2012 10:51am

6. He flew up through the weights did he? Nope, wrong again. Exact same as Mayweather.

1st off, this thread is potential trouble all over it, No drug allegations to be made in here or on the forum at all-1 poster stated how Manny is juiced up etc and got infraction, now I have suspicions but can't just make claims like that, so discuss but be careful of wording.

Now onto the graph!! What a load of BS and although it looks similar it's not in reality, Mayweather by 20 was 130 which is normal as between 16 and 20 growth would be expected and Mayweather got taller aswell, Manny was 112 at 20 and went up 35 lbs over the years and was not getting any taller, Mayweather went from 130 at 20 to 135 at 25 and 140 at 27, no big deal there, Mayweathers growth was defintely more stable and natural, also taking into account how much Muscle Manny gained and before our eyes he seemed to transform, Both may have been messing around, this is a big money business and not the most moral 1 either.

From 20 to 31 Floyd went up 24lbs, Manny went up 35lbs and with him been shorter and lighter % wise would be far higher rise than Mayweather.

If I was been honest i would have far more suspicious about Manny than Floyd, Truth be known both probably had help along the way but as i said we cant accuse without proof on here.

walshb · 26-11-2012 11:08am

Both men most likely stopped growing taller by 17/18. Floyd is 2-3 inches taller than Manny I would say. Max 3! Min? 1.5...

cowzerp · 26-11-2012 11:27am

walshb wrote: »

Both men most likely stopped growing taller by 17/18. Floyd is 2-3 inches taller than Manny I would say. Max 3! Min? 1.5...

stopped growing 17-18! you do realise people grow till about 20 and growth is not only in height either, At 18 Most lads have a fair bit of natural filling out to do as when you start to slow down in your height growth your frame starts to fill in, this is perfectly natural.

walshb · 26-11-2012 11:49am

cowzerp wrote: »

stopped growing 17-18! you do realise people grow till about 20 and growth is not only in height either, At 18 Most lads have a fair bit of natural filling out to do as when you start to slow down in your height growth your frame starts to fill in, this is perfectly natural.

I am speaking about height. Humans do mature and gain weight and their body frame changes for many years, but regarding height it's usually 17/18 for males and 14-15 for females.

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