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why dole+ kids is better than work +kids??

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  • 06-10-2012 11:41am
    #1
    Marcin_diy
    Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭


    Hello all
    I decided to start this thread, as I'm looking for an answer to my question, hopefuly somebody can help me.

    To make long story short few of my friends ( immigrants (like me)) are expecting baby, or already have one or two. Fathers work, and want to work, but most women decided to leave their low to medium paid jobs to look after their kids, as they can't afford to work and pay for childcare. We immigrants, or any other Irish, who moved away from home city in rural areas to Dublin for example, don't have any family, aunts, grandparents, etc, who can look after kids. we are on our own.
    Can somebody explain me how it is possible that for government it is cheaper to pay 800euro dole benefit than to create a goverment creches, etc free of charge for parents who work?


    If person A gets 1500 euro income, and has to spend 1000 euro on creche, 100 euro on transport, 50 on clothes, 100 on other work related expenses it means that peson A is left with 250 euro per month in the pocket.
    On the Dole person A can spend all day with baby, and has 800 euro left in the pocket.

    bill is simple for most stupid people. - you need to bring home much more than 2000 euro every month to have the same money as peson on the dole.
    If you have 2 kids it is completely different story - You would have to bring home over 3000 euro every month, so your work make any sense ( we are talking strictly about money only)
    I know there are people who earn good money, but average family simply can't afford this.....
    I'm in situation where I work shifts including weekends and nigths, and childcare cost for us is less expensive than on average, and it makes sense for my wife to work, but not everyone can work shifts to look after kids...

    So..

    1)is there any governent plan to create subsidiased or free creche places for working parents?
    2) How is this possible that it is cheaper for government to loose experienced employee and pay him/her 800 euro per month?
    3) I heard a lot about new job creation, where government is participating - why not to create more childminder positions and use dole money to pay for these places?
    4) Is government not supposed to be proactive in terms of helping citizens in findig jobs, and sending them to work? If yes
    why they are allowing parents, who has no choice to resign from their work, to get free money and look after kids?

    5) is there any government opposition, or politics who want to implement free creches for working parents?

    6) finally - why not to change CHB rules?
    - it is given to parents for the first year, then it is used towards creche payments, then it is given to the school, where child attend, and school buys books for child and provide free breakfast and lunch for pupils.


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Comments

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    #2
    zef
    Closed Accounts Posts: 947 ✭✭✭zef


    Govt. creches are a great idea, and are used in some of the more progressive Nordic countries. Some workplaces also have creches.
    I agree that the cost of childminding is crazy.
    People on lower incomes, or min. wage are going to have a hard time stumping up that kind of money (800pm creche fees) for the privilege of working. The system is screwed and needs evaluating badly.


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    #3
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    There is a Constitutional protection, such as it is, for a child to be reared in the home. This leads to the state paying out more in this country than might happen in another. It badly needs updating and looking at but it's there currently, if largely ignored.


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    #4
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Start working part time, nights, or work from home. That's the traditional answer. Having kids in this country means one of you having a series of poxy dead-end, low paying jobs and the other being the breadwinner.

    That's my experience anyway.


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    #5
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    1)is there any governent plan to create subsidiased or free creche places for working parents?
    No

    2) How is this possible that it is cheaper for government to loose experienced employee and pay him/her 800 euro per month?
    Someone staying at home to care for children, and who is not looking for work is not entitled to any money, and if claiming, and are doing so fraudulently.

    5) is there any government opposition, or politics who want to implement free creches for working parents?
    Yes, I but it will never happen. Any measure that is deemed to be advantageous to working parents could be unconstitutional.

    6) finally - why not to change CHB rules?
    - it is given to parents for the first year, then it is used towards creche payments, then it is given to the school, where child attend, and school buys books for child and provide free breakfast and lunch for pupils.
    Because lots of parents do not avail of crèches. Even amongst working parents, and the vast majority use childminders.


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    #6
    unimpressed
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭unimpressed


    Could not agree more with what you have said but there is a big problem.
    The fact that people currently get these payments into their hands as cash.
    If the goverment try to stop this there would be an outcry from the small % who use this CASH not for the bennifit of their kids but for themselves.
    Unfortunatly we are crippled by having a very spinless and incompetent goverment filled with TEACHERS civil cervants (with a wealthy backround) who are very far removed from the actual needs of THE PUBLIC working class.
    :mad:


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    #7
    unimpressed
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭unimpressed


    The radio program this morning will awaken a few people to the simple truth about the welfare state (free state lol) we live in. But nothing is simple in a country as unequal and divided as this. I say unequal and divided in reference to people morals and ethics. The leaders have none acording to the followers and vice versa.
    What about a varience on what you are suggesting ?
    1) Dont pay welfare in cash
    2)give housing / medical / heat / food credits etc
    3) give the individual 50 euro on top in cash to use as they want (save for holiday / blow on drink and drugs0
    4) do what you suggest for the welfare of kids

    This would stop all the mothers (i know one or two) from spending all the money then going looking for more to feed the kids ??


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    #8
    cee_jay
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭cee_jay


    Not really a State Benefits issue - this forum is more for personal help with issues/questions you may have.
    Moving thread to Irish Economy - sorry mods if it is the wrong place


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    #9
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Marcin_diy wrote: »
    Hello all
    I decided to start this thread, as I'm looking for an answer to my question, hopefuly somebody can help me.

    To make long story short few of my friends ( immigrants (like me)) are expecting baby, or already have one or two. Fathers work, and want to work, but most women decided to leave their low to medium paid jobs to look after their kids, as they can't afford to work and pay for childcare. We immigrants, or any other Irish, who moved away from home city in rural areas to Dublin for example, don't have any family, aunts, grandparents, etc, who can look after kids. we are on our own.
    Can somebody explain me how it is possible that for government it is cheaper to pay 800euro dole benefit than to create a goverment creches, etc free of charge for parents who work?


    If person A gets 1500 euro income, and has to spend 1000 euro on creche, 100 euro on transport, 50 on clothes, 100 on other work related expenses it means that peson A is left with 250 euro per month in the pocket.
    On the Dole person A can spend all day with baby, and has 800 euro left in the pocket.

    bill is simple for most stupid people. - you need to bring home much more than 2000 euro every month to have the same money as peson on the dole.
    If you have 2 kids it is completely different story - You would have to bring home over 3000 euro every month, so your work make any sense ( we are talking strictly about money only)
    I know there are people who earn good money, but average family simply can't afford this.....
    I'm in situation where I work shifts including weekends and nigths, and childcare cost for us is less expensive than on average, and it makes sense for my wife to work, but not everyone can work shifts to look after kids...

    So..

    1)is there any governent plan to create subsidiased or free creche places for working parents?
    2) How is this possible that it is cheaper for government to loose experienced employee and pay him/her 800 euro per month?
    3) I heard a lot about new job creation, where government is participating - why not to create more childminder positions and use dole money to pay for these places?
    4) Is government not supposed to be proactive in terms of helping citizens in findig jobs, and sending them to work? If yes
    why they are allowing parents, who has no choice to resign from their work, to get free money and look after kids?

    5) is there any government opposition, or politics who want to implement free creches for working parents?

    6) finally - why not to change CHB rules?
    - it is given to parents for the first year, then it is used towards creche payments, then it is given to the school, where child attend, and school buys books for child and provide free breakfast and lunch for pupils.

    I agree with you and i often think how do our dumbo politicians not see this.


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    #10
    edellc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭edellc


    StillWaters wrote: »
    1)
    2) How is this possible that it is cheaper for government to loose experienced employee and pay him/her 800 euro per month?
    Someone staying at home to care for children, and who is not looking for work is not entitled to any money, and if claiming, and are doing so fraudulently.

    Not true, lone parents dont have to look for work or prove they are looking for work, also if you are a dependant of your spouse then you dont need to look for work or prove that you are looking for work and your partner receives the payment for a married/cohabiting couple, if you are both unemployed

    That latter is something that I found out quite recently and was quite shocked by that as I always presumed that both parents claiming benefit have to be looking for employment

    So it is possible to stay at home and bring up your children and be entitled to state help without it being fraudulent.

    However state run creches are a fantastic idea and would greatly reduce the social welfare bill as I am sure there are a lot of lone parents and stay at home mothers that would love to go back to work but have no financial means to do so.

    After school state run groups would also help as when children are in school and finishing at 12/1pm and 2.30pm it doesnt look good on mothers running off to collect kids therefore only able to work part time so if the kids could go to after school where homework would be done. The parent if free to work full time.

    I think the biggest saving could be made from after school care as opposed to creches as kids go to primary school for 8years, 9years including the free preschool place and most parents avail of this place when their child is 3/4years so I would rather make saving for the 8/9yrs as opposed 3/4yrs. Its also very hard to find employment that lets you work just mornings so you are available to collect the child in the afternoon after school, this is what keeps most mothers at home when their child is in school. So if they could go to after school the parent doesnt have to restrict themselves to morning part time work only or no work at all, and could avail of full time hours.


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    #11
    hyperborean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭hyperborean


    Don't have the children if you cannot support them on your own merit.

    Expecting the government to spoon feed you is the real problem......


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    #12
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    hyperborean wrote: »
    Don't have the children if you cannot support them on your own merit.

    Expecting the government to spoon feed you is the real problem......

    You would need 2 grand a month by that argument. Currently it is almost impossible for many people to earn that sort of money so effectively you're taking away their right to ever have kids.


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    #13
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    hyperborean wrote: »
    Don't have the children if you cannot support them on your own merit.

    Expecting the government to spoon feed you is the real problem......


    Problem is the Government need people to have kids so they provide some incentive.


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    #14
    hyperborean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭hyperborean


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    You would need 2 grand a month by that argument. Currently it is almost impossible for many people to earn that sort of money so effectively you're taking away their right to ever have kids.


    Wanting kids is fine and dandy, human nature and all but don't start moaning if the government doesn't pay for the upbringing. I think they are generous enough making it possible for people of no means to procreate and enjoy a family without starving, why should they also pay for child minding?

    Moving away from your own family support system and having a child then complaining that there is no government handout to allow you to work doesn't really make sense to me?


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    #15
    hyperborean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭hyperborean


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Problem is the Government need people to have kids so they provide some incentive.

    This is cyclical, unless a never ending population increase occurs, almost like a breeding ponzi scheme, at some stage the house of cards comes crashing.


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    #16
    tails_naf
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf


    Sorry if this is a stupid question - but I''m genuinely confused.

    If both people are working before they have kids - and then one decides to stay at home to mind the kids, is that family entitled to the dole?

    I had always assumed if a family had one parent in employment it meant no dole.


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    #17
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    OP, I'm a single guy in his mid 30's without children. I don't have children because I'm not in a financial situation where I could support children. It's not the job of the state, or uncles, or aunties, or grandparents, to look after your children.

    I would love to have a family, but 4 years of recessionary hardship has left me, and many others I know, in a situation whereby it would be irresponsible to have children.

    I don't understand how people have this sense of entitlement in this country, whereby they have it in their head where they can do what they want, and yet it falls to others to either pay for it, or to somehow provide for it.

    I don't want the tax that I pay to go towards the state providing a free baby sitting service to parents. If you can't afford to raise children, then do the responsible thing and don't have children.


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    #18
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    hyperborean wrote: »
    This is cyclical, unless a never ending population increase occurs, almost like a breeding ponzi scheme, at some stage the house of cards comes crashing.

    Well the current cycle has been going on since about 1850 and doesn't look like it's going to end anytime soon.


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    #19
    hyperborean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭hyperborean


    Procrastastudy wrote: »
    Well the current cycle has been going on since about 1850 and doesn't look like it's going to end anytime soon.


    really, superman bless your innocence. The notion that population increase a good thing is mental.


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    #20
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    hyperborean wrote: »
    really, superman bless your innocence. The notion that population increase a good thing is mental.

    I have no strong feelings on the subject - however it's been a policy of every government voted in since the year dot so someone out there must want it supported.


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    #21
    hyperborean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭hyperborean


    Procrastastudy wrote: »
    I have no strong feelings on the subject - however it's been a policy of every government voted in since the year dot so someone out there must want it supported.

    the irish narrative has been forever so (since the famine anyway), but we are straying from the point.

    The OP wants assistance with her childcare from the government so she can go out and work, I would be inclined to reject the notion on the simple premise that with 20 minutes research the OP would know that having a child will restrict her ability to work and so the choice should be simple, have the child or work! Make the choice and live with it....

    on a side note I am far from anti children/family, ride away boys and girls


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    #22
    Marcin_diy
    Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭Marcin_diy


    squod wrote: »
    Start working part time, nights, or work from home. That's the traditional answer. Having kids in this country means one of you having a series of poxy dead-end, low paying jobs and the other being the breadwinner.

    That's my experience anyway.
    I work shifts. It is not possible that everyone can work non standard hours. In some sectors there is no shift work available.
    StillWaters wrote: »
    1)

    6) finally - why not to change CHB rules?
    - it is given to parents for the first year, then it is used towards creche payments, then it is given to the school, where child attend, and school buys books for child and provide free breakfast and lunch for pupils.
    Because lots of parents do not avail of crèches. Even amongst working parents, and the vast majority use childminders.
    Childminders are available, cos many of them cant get a work in creches etc. I think they would choose safe and legal job with some benefits as teacher in Creche if there was an option.
    unimpressed wrote: »
    The radio program this morning will awaken a few people to the simple truth about the welfare state (free state lol) we live in. But nothing is simple in a country as unequal and divided as this. I say unequal and divided in reference to people morals and ethics. The leaders have none acording to the followers and vice versa.
    What about a varience on what you are suggesting ?
    1) Dont pay welfare in cash
    2)give housing / medical / heat / food credits etc
    3) give the individual 50 euro on top in cash to use as they want (save for holiday / blow on drink and drugs0
    4) do what you suggest for the welfare of kids

    This would stop all the mothers (i know one or two) from spending all the money then going looking for more to feed the kids ??
    we are not talking about pathology, but about normal hard working people
    woodoo wrote: »
    I agree with you and i often think how do our dumbo politicians not see this.
    what can be done, to let them see this? [ not my post in particular, but idea)
    hyperborean wrote: »
    Don't have the children if you cannot support them on your own merit.

    Expecting the government to spoon feed you is the real problem......
    disagree in 100%. those kids will pay our pension when we retire. money you pay now in prsi are used at the moment for current pensions. no kids no money in the future, more imigrants, less Irish in Ireland..
    On the other side Ireland is one of very few countries that cost so much for creche. So because of stupid law only people in Ireland shouldnt have kids?

    In Poland avg pay is 850 euro, but creche cost 150 euro- can you see the difference?
    HellFireClub wrote: »
    OP, I'm a single guy in his mid 30's without children. I don't have children because I'm not in a financial situation where I could support children. It's not the job of the state, or uncles, or aunties, or grandparents, to look after your children.

    I would love to have a family, but 4 years of recessionary hardship has left me, and many others I know, in a situation whereby it would be irresponsible to have children.

    I don't understand how people have this sense of entitlement in this country, whereby they have it in their head where they can do what they want, and yet it falls to others to either pay for it, or to somehow provide for it.

    I don't want the tax that I pay to go towards the state providing a free baby sitting service to parents. If you can't afford to raise children, then do the responsible thing and don't have children.
    who will pay your pension? and why my kids? your money you pay in prsi are being used now....


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    #23
    Forest Demon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Forest Demon


    tails_naf wrote: »
    Sorry if this is a stupid question - but I''m genuinely confused.

    If both people are working before they have kids - and then one decides to stay at home to mind the kids, is that family entitled to the dole?

    I had always assumed if a family had one parent in employment it meant no dole.

    You are spot on. After stamps are used (job seekers benefit) then its means tested. If partner is working and on any kind of a normal wage then you would not get anything worth talking about. The thing is you also would not incur the cost of working (2nd car, childcare, lunches, petrol etc).

    Problem is that most things in Ireland are now priced at such a level that you need a really high single wage or two average wages just to cover costs never mind save anything.

    If a woman or man wants to mind her their own children then I don't think anyone should be pushed into working. One wage should be enough to survive with some sacrifices. In Ireland it is not if you want a decent home in a decent area for an average wage.

    Its not a choice of a second wage vs benefits in most cases. Its a choice of second wage vs no income and less costs.


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    #24
    Marcin_diy
    Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭Marcin_diy


    hyperborean wrote: »
    the irish narrative has been forever so (since the famine anyway), but we are straying from the point.

    The OP wants assistance with her childcare from the government so she can go out and work, I would be inclined to reject the notion on the simple premise that with 20 minutes research the OP would know that having a child will restrict her ability to work and so the choice should be simple, have the child or work! Make the choice and live with it....

    on a side note I am far from anti children/family, ride away boys and girls

    his, not her, Marcin is Martin in English.
    I don't want and don't need assistance, but would be nice if govnt creches were available at more affordable rates.

    and intention of my thread to find out how we as a nation can inform government that It is better to create jobs as creche teachers that to let many people go on the dole and generate additional costs.


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    #25
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    Marcin_diy wrote: »
    who will pay your pension? and why my kids? your money you pay in prsi are being used now....

    My PRSI & income tax deductions, the 10.75% PRSI my company pays per employee on all their income, that'll pay my pension, thank you.

    I'm not saying people should not have children, I'm just saying that this notion where people can go out and have children and expect someone else to babysit them, someone else to pay for their children, I don't get that and I'm sick of everyone in this country asking the government to sort out every woe that they have. It isn't the responsibility of the government to be getting into the provision of baby sitting services for people who want to pawn off their responsibilities to everyone else.


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    #26
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Marcin_diy wrote: »
    and has to spend 1000 euro on creche,

    That much?

    Yet creche workers are low-paid

    In around 10 euro per hour and some will be closer to minimum wage

    Creche owners have expensive insurance for sure but they must be raking in the cash!

    The staff sure aren't getting the money


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    #27
    Chucken
    Registered Users Posts: 9,459 ✭✭✭Chucken


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    My PRSI & income tax deductions, the 10.75% PRSI my company pays per employee on all their income, that'll pay my pension, thank you.

    I'm not saying people should not have children, I'm just saying that this notion where people can go out and have children and expect someone else to babysit them, someone else to pay for their children, I don't get that and I'm sick of everyone in this country asking the government to sort out every woe that they have. It isn't the responsibility of the government to be getting into the provision of baby sitting services for people who want to pawn off their responsibilities to everyone else.


    What?? The OP is asking about State run childcare faciities...not exactly an orphanage you understand?!!!

    Its not unusual in other countries and it allows people to continue working.


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    #28
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    That much?

    Yet creche workers are low-paid

    In around 10 euro per hour and some will be closer to minimum wage

    Creche owners have expensive insurance for sure but they must be raking in the cash!

    The staff sure aren't getting the money

    Insurance costs in this country for businesses are a joke and are artificially high because no government has ever stood up to the legal profession in this country. The insurance companies in this state are responsible for keeping thousands of job opportunities suppressed, by the insanely high costs of any business insurance in this backwater kip.

    EDIT: That's where the surgery needs to take place if you want to deal with the ridiculously high costs of childcare in this state, not by leaving the costs ridiculously high and then trying to lamp it onto the back of the taxpayer...


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    #29
    HellFireClub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭HellFireClub


    Chucken wrote: »
    What?? The OP is asking about State run childcare faciities...not exactly an orphanage you understand?!!!

    Its not unusual in other countries and it allows people to continue working.

    It's a baby sitting service for people who want to have kids but want to just demand that someone else bring them up while they trot back to work!!! Don't have kids if you are not in a financial position to bring them up, that's my financial situation, therefore I don't have kids. I'm not going around deluding myself that I have to have kids so that my kids can pay the pensions for my generation when we retire. It's juts gone beyond a joke in this country, the sense of absolute entitlement, the way people think they can just stamp their feet and the government or someone else has to come in under them to support whatever it is that they want to do and I'm sick of it...


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    #30
    Farmer Pudsey
    Registered Users Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭Farmer Pudsey


    OP I think you are stirring I can smell it a mile away. However I totally agree with you. This is a crazy situtation in Ireland. No matter how long you are unemployed you get the same rate and it has got to the situtation that family's where there is only one working or two in low paid employment are way better off on the benifit.

    We pay amoung the highest rate in europe and as well there are other benifits so that you never have to worry about the rainy day. If there is a rainy day there is the supplementy system as well as SVDP.

    We even want to make it less rewarding to work and improve welfare benifits. We want to means test or tax Child Benifit and increase the rate to welfare recipents. Wait until you want to send kids to college (3rd Level) the system really kicks in then and really kicks the worker in the ba##s the system gives you about 8K/year in benifits though why any young adult bought up in this system would feel the need to go to college I do not know.
    However a couple of years with your peer group is nice and they would be covering there bet in case the government changed the system. However I believe that is highly unlikly. Wishing you and your all the best at least you had the intelligance to pick the right country to imigrate into.


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    #31
    Marcin_diy
    Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭Marcin_diy


    HellFireClub wrote: »
    My PRSI & income tax deductions, the 10.75% PRSI my company pays per employee on all their income, that'll pay my pension, thank you.
    With all the respect to youHellFireClub - you are wrong. private pension if you have any plan with employer is your pension you will get, but PRSI and taxes your employer pays are used for current pensions expenses. Thats how it works, and it cant be changed. you pay your prsi yes. But if Ireland get into poverty in 10 -20 eyears or if there wont be enough kids born/ imigrants available- it may happen that you won't get any pension at all. Money you pay now in taxes don't go onto your saving pension account. they are being spent the very same day. Do you get my point, and do you understand that our kids will pay for our pension? of course we are talking about normal families, where kids have good example of hard working fathers or parents.


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