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BBC HD transmission parameter changes on 27th September

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  • 06-09-2012 5:36am
    #1
    lawhec
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/aboutthebbc/2012/09/bbc-hd.shtml

    Basically the frequency (10847 MHz, vertical), transmission mode (DVB-S2) and Symbol rate (23000) remain unchanged, but the modulation and FEC are changing from QPSK 8/9 to 8PSK 2/3. Apparently this is to help prepare for the launch of BBC One HD for the "nations" - N. Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The change in parameters should increase the available bitrate on the transponder from 40.628 Mbit/s to 45.554 Mbit/s - touch and go to carry six HD streams so the current encrypted ITV1 HD Meridian channel on that transponder might be moving.

    As explained in the link above, Sky customers viewing through the EPG should be unaffected, Freesat viewers should in theory might just need to put their receiver into standby for 30 seconds otherwise need a Freesat channel retune or in the worst case a First Time Install. FTA receivers might need retuning though, some might get away with it - though the advice for Freesat suggests maybe not?

    Finally, in before the "Freesat vs. FTA & Combo receivers" argument. :pac:


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    #2
    ninja 12
    Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭ninja 12


    lawhec wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/aboutthebbc/2012/09/bbc-hd.shtml

    Basically the frequency (10847 MHz, vertical), transmission mode (DVB-S2) and Symbol rate (23000) remain unchanged, but the modulation and FEC are changing from QPSK 8/9 to 8PSK 2/3. Apparently this is to help prepare for the launch of BBC One HD for the "nations" - N. Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The change in parameters should increase the available bitrate on the transponder from 40.628 Mbit/s to 45.554 Mbit/s - touch and go to carry six HD streams so the current encrypted ITV1 HD Meridian channel on that transponder might be moving.

    As explained in the link above, Sky customers viewing through the EPG should be unaffected, Freesat viewers should in theory might just need to put their receiver into standby for 30 seconds otherwise need a Freesat channel retune or in the worst case a First Time Install. FTA receivers might need retuning though, some might get away with it - though the advice for Freesat suggests maybe not?

    Finally, in before the "Freesat vs. FTA & Combo receivers" argument. :pac:

    Thanks ,
    Any idea when BBC HD NI is due to be launched ?


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    #3
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Seriously what a waste - BBC1 Wales/NI/Scotland each getting a dedicated HD when BBC3/4 are stuck in SD as default.


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    #4
    jaggiebunnet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭jaggiebunnet


    mike65 wrote: »
    Seriously what a waste - BBC1 Wales/NI/Scotland each getting a dedicated HD when BBC3/4 are stuck in SD as default.

    Not to the people in Wales, NI or Scotland.


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    #5
    shinobi
    Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭shinobi


    jaggiebunnet wrote: »
    Not to the people in Wales, NI or Scotland.

    Already SD channels available for the regional stuff. Usually very little difference in the programming schedule.


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    #6
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Exactly its a Ferrari presentation of Lada products. Hard to see any reason why some regional current affairs programme should be in HD while brilliantly shot documentaries on BBC4 are often shown SD


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    #7
    jaggiebunnet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭jaggiebunnet


    shinobi wrote: »
    Already SD channels available for the regional stuff. Usually very little difference in the programming schedule.

    as someone who watches bbc 1 Scotland on a regular basis there are often things that are not available on HD. it is license payers in Scotland, NI and Wales who are paying for this so it is this audience the BBC are trying to satisfy after all.


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    #8
    galtee boy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭galtee boy


    Unfortunately this means we will probably have BBC1 HD on the Irish EPG replaced with BBC1 NI HD.


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    #9
    muffler
    Registered Users Posts: 45,868 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    galtee boy wrote: »
    Unfortunately this means we will probably have BBC1 HD on the Irish EPG replaced with BBC1 NI HD.
    Apart from the news mostly whats the difference?


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    #10
    excollier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭excollier


    Very little


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    #11
    xxyyxx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 223 ✭✭xxyyxx


    I remember Friday nights being absolutely horrible on BBC One NI with stuff like HIGNFY shunted to close to midnight.


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    #12
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Isn't it part of the BeeBs remit that they have to offer regional channels and that they have to supply HD also, I remember reading something on it explaining why they haven't launched +1 channels as it would mean and extra 20 or something channels (each region plus online)


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    #13
    Rick_
    Registered Users Posts: 2,606 ✭✭✭Rick_


    The BBC would never be allowed to launch +1 channels as they make all their content available online and they have so many channels it would be unfeasible to do so. I do agree though, having 4 BBC ONE regions in HD when 3, 4, CBBC and CBeebies have plenty of HD content that can't be shown now is a terrible waste. They should just had the 4 streams for BBC ONE HD, BBC TWO HD, BBC THREE HD/CBBC HD and BBC FOUR/CBEEBIES HD with any gaps for regional programming showing a HD repeat instead of a clock or preview type programme.


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    #14
    SRB
    Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    excollier wrote: »
    Very little

    Not true, the three "Nations" usually run totally different schedules from 10.35 onwards. BBC2 Wales and NI also shuffle the schedule quite often at the weekend for Rugby and GAA. BBC2 NI also carries some Irish Language and Ulster Scots programming, usually between 7 and 10pm. You'll usually see a film on BBC1 England at night, these rarely appear in the Nations at all.


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    #15
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    There is no commercial logic for a non advertising channel to have a +1 echo. So there will never be any for the BBC (unless the worst happens! :eek:)


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    #16
    lawhec
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    BBC 1 NI, Scotland and Wales do in general have more regional variation than those in England which by and large are restricted to regional news. BBC NI do have a few of their own productions outside of news programmes, The Estate, Nolan Live, local documentaries etc. Though live local sports stuff normally gets shunted off to BBC2 which wouldn't benefit from this. Wherever you think such local programmes are worth it is subjective - but they do tend to be popular in Northern Ireland. For me is BBC One HD NI something to look forward to? I'd say yes.

    The point about the likes of BBC Three & Four in HD - there are several problems, one being that the BBC had planned from when BBC One HD started to have the first expansion of HD services to cover the "national regions" so these HD services have been planned for a while now to come on line by the end of this year. There's not much public knowledge about HD simulcasts of other BBC channels yet. Next, the BBC are having to tighten purse strings quite recently, they've already sacrificed one transponder on Astra 28.2, closed the News multiscreen service, already reduced the Red Button screens down from six to five with more possibly to be axed etc. They only have one DVB-S2 transponder and with the other four containing MPEG2 SD broadcasts that are pretty much full, converting them to DVB-S2 isn't an option. Finally, the BBC's general commitment to "platform neutrality" would mean that any new full-time HD channel would have to as far as possible be provided over satellite, terrestrial and cable in the UK. On Freeview (post-DSO areas) there is just one spare HD stream left to be allocated after Channel 5 (again!) handed back their licence to run 5HD terrestrially. The BBC HD Channel "experiment" is about to end and likely to be replaced by a BBC2 HD simulcast, bearing in mind BBC2's programming output looks like it'll be trimmed too. Running repeats of BBC Three & Four programming on BBC2 in the off-peak viewing hours is a possible option.

    Edit: Just to add, +1 channels are run by commercial broadcasters as quite a cheap way to generate more advertising income. The BBC doesn't need them.


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    #17
    galtee boy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭galtee boy


    muffler wrote: »
    Apart from the news mostly whats the difference?

    As other posters have mentioned, there is a huge amount of local programming on BBC NI, especially political stuff from 10.35pm onwards, when BBC1 England are showing movies etc. Also what drives me nuts, is on a Saturday, when they break away from Final Score to show "Final Score" from NI, showing highlights of Coleraine verus Ballymena or something similiar. As Duncan Balentine says "I'm out". I'll have to migrate to the Freesat box for BBC1 London.


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    #18
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    You really need to love Norn Iron to sit through Final Score with the vowel mangler.

    Does SKY Ireland have the other UK regions on the EPG?


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    #19
    xxyyxx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 223 ✭✭xxyyxx


    mike65 wrote: »
    Does SKY Ireland have the other UK regions on the EPG?

    No.


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    #20
    muffler
    Registered Users Posts: 45,868 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    mike65 wrote: »
    You really need to love Norn Iron to sit through Final Score with the vowel mangler.
    Wash your mouth out :p

    mike65 wrote: »
    Does SKY Ireland have the other UK regions on the EPG?
    I cant recall if its because of the card trick or not but I have BBC variations on the 950's


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    #21
    John mac
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭John mac


    muffler wrote: »
    I cant recall if its because of the card trick or not but I have BBC variations on the 950's
    Card trick..

    not on an Irish sub card.


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    #22
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    When they were showing the extra channels for the Olympics on Freesat, if you had a HD box, you got the channels in HD, otherwise they were SD. Why can they not do the same trick with regional variations.

    Since most of the time all regions show the same programmes, and only for local news and opt-outs, are there any changes. Is it feasible for these opt-outs to be broadcast in SD, with a MHEG5 driven switch so that the viewer sees the same channel but is actually switched to a different broadcast? In other words, there is only one 'master' HD channel and the local versions are all in SD.

    Just a thought.


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    #23
    lawhec
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    When they were showing the extra channels for the Olympics on Freesat, if you had a HD box, you got the channels in HD, otherwise they were SD. Why can they not do the same trick with regional variations.
    With Sky, if you had a HD receiver you had a choice of HD or SD streams on the EPG.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Since most of the time all regions show the same programmes, and only for local news and opt-outs, are there any changes. Is it feasible for these opt-outs to be broadcast in SD, with a MHEG5 driven switch so that the viewer sees the same channel but is actually switched to a different broadcast? In other words, there is only one 'master' HD channel and the local versions are all in SD.
    There's a number of problems with that. One being that I haven't seen MHEG do what you've described - it can do channel switching at least on a manual basis but I've not seen it done automatically. Secondly, an MHEG solution would be of no use to Sky viewers, nor to those watching via FTA receivers.

    If something like that could be possible to cover Sky, Freesat and FTA receivers, I'd say the BBC would have done that by now, rather than leaving BBC One HD "idle" during regional news bulletins.

    I do know that some German public broadcasters (especially WDR) use something akin to PID switching so that when all it's sub-regions on satellite have their individual programmes on air, they are all shown but when a single network programme is being shown the rest of the time all the service IDs source from the same PIDs for Video, Audio, teletext etc. This is done not only for SD but also HD as well. TBH I'm not really sure how they're accomplishing this when separate sub-region programmes are being broadcast without some serious compression issues (probably have a bit more elbow room if it's only local news) but it seems to work OK. I think SVT use something similar, but that in some cases the switching isn't entirely smooth.

    Could the BBC do this? Probably, but I suspect the reason why they have not is either that they don't regard it as reliable, or that there is an incompatibility with the Sky and/or Freesat EPG to handle it. I would doubt that they haven't at least thought about it.

    There is a compatibility mode in DVB-S2 where it is split into two streams, one which is QPSK modulated, compatible with DVB-S only receivers and the other in 8PSK modulation for DVB-S2 receivers. I'm not too sure on the technical ins and outs of it (Watty or the Cush might know more?) but in theory it could allow a mini DVB-S2 carrier to rise alongside the DVB-S carrier to generate enough additional bandwidth for DVB-S2 receivers to see for one additional HD AVC channel per transponder, maybe two at a stretch.


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    #24
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    lawhec wrote: »
    With Sky, if you had a HD receiver you had a choice of HD or SD streams on the EPG.


    There's a number of problems with that. One being that I haven't seen MHEG do what you've described - it can do channel switching at least on a manual basis but I've not seen it done automatically. Secondly, an MHEG solution would be of no use to Sky viewers, nor to those watching via FTA receivers.

    If something like that could be possible to cover Sky, Freesat and FTA receivers, I'd say the BBC would have done that by now, rather than leaving BBC One HD "idle" during regional news bulletins.

    I do know that some German public broadcasters (especially WDR) use something akin to PID switching so that when all it's sub-regions on satellite have their individual programmes on air, they are all shown but when a single network programme is being shown the rest of the time all the service IDs source from the same PIDs for Video, Audio, teletext etc. This is done not only for SD but also HD as well. TBH I'm not really sure how they're accomplishing this when separate sub-region programmes are being broadcast without some serious compression issues (probably have a bit more elbow room if it's only local news) but it seems to work OK. I think SVT use something similar, but that in some cases the switching isn't entirely smooth.

    Could the BBC do this? Probably, but I suspect the reason why they have not is either that they don't regard it as reliable, or that there is an incompatibility with the Sky and/or Freesat EPG to handle it. I would doubt that they haven't at least thought about it.

    There is a compatibility mode in DVB-S2 where it is split into two streams, one which is QPSK modulated, compatible with DVB-S only receivers and the other in 8PSK modulation for DVB-S2 receivers. I'm not too sure on the technical ins and outs of it (Watty or the Cush might know more?) but in theory it could allow a mini DVB-S2 carrier to rise alongside the DVB-S carrier to generate enough additional bandwidth for DVB-S2 receivers to see for one additional HD AVC channel per transponder, maybe two at a stretch.

    If there is a way, why do they not do it? It need not depend on MHEG5, but could b coded into Freesat receivers. Sky would look after themselves as they have complete control over their own platform. The benefits for Freesat would be huge, as they could rid themselves of the need for simulcasts of HD channels, and could perhaps reduce the number of regional variations for much of the time. They could then use the saved bandwidth to save money or to improve quality. (I do ot know which they would choose:))

    There is always a clunk when the end of a programme switches to presentation to signpost following programmes, so clunkiness is not a problem to them at the moment.

    It would also clean up the EPG and the channel list. I fail to understand why they have a HD variation at a different EPG channel number. Nordig allows for HD priority LCN, so if you have HD availability, that is what you get, otherwise you get SD.

    I think they are caught up with platform neutrality, everyone must go at the speed of the slowest. Satellite has a huge bandwidth avaiability over terestrial - they should be allowed (allow themselves) to avail of it.





    .


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    #25
    lawhec
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    If there is a way, why do they not do it? It need not depend on MHEG5, but could b coded into Freesat receivers. Sky would look after themselves as they have complete control over their own platform.
    The available BBC channel streams on Freesat and Sky are the one and the same. The large majority of those in the UK who view BBC services via satellite do so with Sky, therefore any technical bits would need to be compatible with both Sky and Freesat.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The benefits for Freesat would be huge, as they could rid themselves of the need for simulcasts of HD channels, and could perhaps reduce the number of regional variations for much of the time. They could then use the saved bandwidth to save money or to improve quality. (I do ot know which they would choose:))
    See above and see my previous post about some other European broadcasters engaging in PID switching. It's something that is possible within the DVB spec for generic receivers - my little amount of knowledge behind it would guess that it involves something to do with active changes to the MPEG2 transport stream and/or network information table. It's perfectly possible that such switching can't be handled by either the Freesat or Sky EPG but without actually knowing, it's only speculation.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    There is always a clunk when the end of a programme switches to presentation to signpost following programmes, so clunkiness is not a problem to them at the moment.
    There's a difference between in-house switching and broadcast switching.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    It would also clean up the EPG and the channel list. I fail to understand why they have a HD variation at a different EPG channel number. Nordig allows for HD priority LCN, so if you have HD availability, that is what you get, otherwise you get SD.
    Nordig specifications have nothing to do with Sky or Freesat so have little relevance here. Sky's EPG is set so that details in the viewing card can already determine what regional variations and wherever a HD or SD version of a channel is shown on a particular EPG number. Freesat can at least do the former though its postcode check. About a decade ago when the BBC was on satellite encrypted with Videoguard, BBC One, Two and Choice (for a time) were only available with a generic BBC One/Two English service, and national regions for Scotland, Wales and NI - you couldn't even view another region as they were blocked out (Choice being an exception). The English BBC One version for the 6.30pm regional news instead had a special "UK Today" programme featuring bits from English regional newsrooms. Later on before encryption was dropped, a Red Button service became available on Sky where about half a dozen of the bigger regional news programmes was available. When encryption was dropped, the BBC started rolling out all regional variations for BBC One not only because they reckoned the money saved from encryption fees allowed them to hire more transponder space from Astra, but that it underwent a process of regional studio upgrades in England that allowed them to finally properly stat-mux multiplex Mux 1 on Freeview.

    The upcoming scenario with BBC One HD regions closely mimics this scenario involving SD a decade ago. Most of the English regional centres are not outfitted for HD yet - the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish ones are. It'll be a matter of progression in the next few years for the English regional centres to be upgraded for HD, but licence fee freezes will delay that.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I think they are caught up with platform neutrality, everyone must go at the speed of the slowest. Satellite has a huge bandwidth avaiability over terestrial - they should be allowed (allow themselves) to avail of it.
    Why? The platform neutrality of the BBC for it's main services is one of it's strengths - it provides consistent, reliable provision of domestic services across different platforms for UK viewers. In case you haven't noticed, the BBC are having to pull the purse strings at the moment with not only a licence fee freeze but also having those funds take on the burden of the World Service, S4C etc. that the government have now lumbered them with and also complete projects that were initiated several years ago which can't be halted now e.g. the move to Salford. Satellite and cable has allowed the BBC to experiment with a more expansive Red Button service but even this is having to be scaled back because of cost issues. It's not a lack of DTT space holding back a greater expansion of HD services from the BBC right now.


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    #26
    SRB
    Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    Another point, the BBC Nations all also run their own in house playout - unlike the BBC England service, which is outsourced. All the material between programmes is actually local too - you'd be going back to the days of "that's except for viewers in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland who have their own programmes at this time" type of presentation if it all came from a central source as the Nations have a lot of programming moved to different times and days...


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    #27
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I just think it is very wasteful of bandwidth to have 27 versions of BBC1 broadcast the same thing 95% of the time. I decent HD version for those 95% times and 27 SD versions for the 5%. (27 is plucked from the air, it could be 17 or 47). Freeview is a different issue as the geographic nature of it limits the variations.

    How do they propose to migrate people from Mpeg2 SD to Mpeg4 HD? One mux at a time? Or will they use a killer channel?

    It would have been better if they had moved at least one mux over to MPEG4/DVB-T2 at the switchover. It could take 20 years to move everything over.


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    #28
    SRB
    Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    Well the HD channels are obviously DVBT-2 only - to migrate everyone they'd really need to stop selling non DVBT-2 equipment. (Look how long it took to close the UK 405-line TV network.)
    NI will be an interesting market to watch as the mini-mux will require DVBT-2 equipment, yet the RTE channels and TG4 will be SD.


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