Schools want to drop LC physics, chemistry, economics

Permabear · 04-04-2012 12:51pm #1

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Duggys Housemate · 04-04-2012 12:53pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Religion maybe, Irish is a cultural thing.

Dravokivich · 04-04-2012 12:54pm

Em... why complain about them dropping those courses instead of others as opposed to not having the funds available to maintain them?

Duggys Housemate · 04-04-2012 12:55pm

The OP is an anarcho-capitalist.

Grayson · 04-04-2012 12:56pm

Dunno. My school didn't do biology. But it did physics and chemistry.

It would be annoying if they stopped teaching a subject when you were doing it. My school also cut a language out after i did it in first year. Felt like a year wasted.

Seachmall · 04-04-2012 12:57pm

Perhaps those subjects have the lowest number of students studying them?

Regardless I think it's stupid. Drop Irish and Religion like you said.

Immaculate Pasta · 04-04-2012 12:59pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Don't agree with either of these choices. Studying Religion is akin to learning about History or Geography. It's an important humanities subject. Irish, while questionable whether it should be compulsory or not, is still our native language and must be made an option.

The real answer is none of these subjects should be dropped. Dropping any of the Sciences is criminal. So anybody who attends these schools would have no chance of ever becoming a Doctor or a Pharmacist etc. Economics is also essential as it teaches people how the world really works.

The King of Moo · 04-04-2012 12:59pm

I'd rather they didn't have to drop any subjects at all.

Ideally, schools should offer a range of subjects, not only those which have an economic function.

Maybe we should look at refunding schools so they don't have to consider dropping subjects at all.

04-04-2012 1:00pm

I can understand that subjects that require labs would be more expensive to run than purely classroom based ones but why accounting and economics?

I thought there were too many business studies/commerce graduates going into teaching and that there shouldn't be a shortage of teachers.

Edit: I think schools in general should provide as wide a range of subject choices as possible.

karma_ · 04-04-2012 1:00pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Save your faux rage, if you had your way all education would be privatised.

admiralofthefleet · 04-04-2012 1:08pm

definitely drop religion and maybe classical studies and music. if im correct not one person did either in last years LC

ScumLord · 04-04-2012 1:09pm

That physics is a load of nonsense I kicked a ball of concrete into low orbit this morning then walked through the kitchen wall and boiled the kettle using only my inner rage.

Immaculate Pasta wrote: »

Don't agree with either of these choices. Studying Religion is akin to learning about History or Geography.

It's too biased and can in no way be seen as historical any more so than the brothers grimm storeys can be seen as historical.

I agree religion is of historical importance and should be studied, but in an unbiased and impartial way which doesn't happen in Irish schools.

amacachi · 04-04-2012 1:11pm

In a lot of schools there aren't the numbers to do those subjects. It's sad but along with Maths they're the subjects that are constantly held up as examples of "hard" subjects which puts students off.

04-04-2012 1:11pm

karma_ wrote: »

Save your faux rage, if you had your way all education would be privatised.

If it were, students might actually have a full choice of subjects instead of this messing around

partyatmygaff · 04-04-2012 1:13pm

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

definitely drop religion and maybe classical studies and music. if im correct not one person did either in last years LC

Music was taken by over 5000 people last year. Classical studies by over 700.

ScumLord wrote: »

I agree religion is of historical importance and should be studied, but in an unbiased and impartial way which doesn't happen in Irish schools.

Primary school =/= Secondary school

Look at the LC Religion exam papers. There's plenty of scope and choice.

benway · 04-04-2012 1:14pm

bluewolf wrote: »

If it were, students who can afford it might actually have a full choice of subjects instead of this messing around

FYP

Physics and chemistry we need, economics is only a bunch of pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo anyhow, no better than religion.

*EDIT

I did music for my leaving, was a while ago at this stage.

Mountainlad · 04-04-2012 1:16pm

They can't drop the Science subjects anyway. Seem odd that two Science subjects and two Business subjects were picked, rather than say a language or materials technology, and maybe one from each of the others. Why specifically those subjects?

Dravokivich · 04-04-2012 1:17pm

bluewolf wrote: »

If it were, students might actually have a full choice of subjects instead of this messing around

If its privatised that could result in limiting the options available to something that is affordable for the student to take, or even something that would be profitable to operate.

[/scaremongering]

starbelgrade · 04-04-2012 1:19pm

amacachi wrote: »

Studying Religion is akin to learning about History or Geography. It's an important humanities subject.

Religion isn't taught in Irish schools as a humanities study - what is taught in the vast majority of schools is Catholicism which is an entirely different subject.

Crann na Beatha · 04-04-2012 1:20pm

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Mr. Rager · 04-04-2012 1:21pm

starbelgrade wrote: »

amacachi wrote: »

Studying Religion is akin to learning about History or Geography. It's an important humanities subject.

Religion isn't taught in Irish schools as a humanities study - what is taught in the vast majority of schools is Catholicism which is an entirely different subject.

Sorry but you're wrong, unless your talking about primary schools/bogger community schools.

Mardy Bum · 04-04-2012 1:22pm

Subjects have been dropped by plenty of schools over the last 3 or four years because of this. Teachers in some schools are not even available to teach these subjects and so unqualified teachers get shunted to teach these subject as a result of the surge in retirements over the past few years. The retired teachers are not replaced and so those on permanent contracts are drafted in to teach subjects such as chemistry and economics when they are not really qualified too. The system is flawed. Chemistry and Economics rarely has a large uptake either in many schools as students orientate toward biology and business.

amacachi · 04-04-2012 1:23pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

They can't drop the Science subjects anyway. Seem odd that two Science subjects and two Business subjects were picked, rather than say a language or materials technology, and maybe one from each of the others. Why specifically those subjects?

Because they're probably the least subscribed of the "mainstream" subjects. And what are you talking about that they can't drop the science subjects? Some years in my school there were no chemistry classes and in the school next to us there were years with no economics, physics or chemistry. Hell schools are giving kids the choice at the end of first year about continuing science.

Getronicle · 04-04-2012 1:24pm

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

definitely drop religion and maybe classical studies and music. if im correct not one person did either in last years LC

I did music last year and so did plenty of others, as mentioned by another poster.

Removing science subjects is ridiculous. How about encouraging students who are going to choose construction studies as a subject to pick physics or chemistry instead? Would seem more reasonable now that there's not much construction happening in the country.

dlofnep · 04-04-2012 1:24pm

People can learn about religion in Churches in they like, free of charge. But I'd feel that way, regardless of the funding. But there is nowhere to learn Irish outside of school in a similar manner. It should be preserved as a core cultural subject which is unique to our island. If we don't preserve it, nobody will.

Neither however should be made a scapegoat for the lack of funding. That's the real issue here.

RichieC · 04-04-2012 1:24pm

It's cool, we done so well being scientifically illiterate for centuries. The "good" book will dig us out of this mess.

Mountainlad · 04-04-2012 1:25pm

starbelgrade wrote: »

Religion isn't taught in Irish schools as a humanities study - what is taught in the vast majority of schools is Catholicism which is an entirely different subject.

Depends on the teacher, how old they are is definetly a factor. The syllabus for non-exam students resembles SPHE. They could do away with in my opinion, having an exam on religion is a farce in my opinion, and if it's not an exam subject then students have no interest in it. Certainly if it was a choice between any of the 4 subjects listed and religion, it would be the first to go for me.

starbelgrade · 04-04-2012 1:25pm

Mr. Rager wrote: »

Sorry but you're wrong, unless your talking about primary schools/bogger community schools.

90% of the schools in Ireland are run by the Catholic church - you might dismiss them as "bogger community schools", but they form the vast majority of schools in which our children are educated.

partyatmygaff · 04-04-2012 1:25pm

starbelgrade wrote: »

Religion isn't taught in Irish schools as a humanities study - what is taught in the vast majority of schools is Catholicism which is an entirely different subject.

...

You can complete the entire exam without so much as mentioning Christianity if you so desired.

I know having a popular rant and getting thanked for it is great... but sometimes knowing what you're talking about can save a lot of embarrassment.

Mountainlad · 04-04-2012 1:26pm

amacachi wrote: »

Because they're probably the least subscribed of the "mainstream" subjects. And what are you talking about that they can't drop the science subjects? Some years in my school there were no chemistry classes and in the school next to us there were years with no economics, physics or chemistry. Hell schools are giving kids the choice at the end of first year about continuing science.

Yeah but you coul move school if you wanted to do a particular subject. If they remove them altogether, then what can you do?

And is science not compulsory for the junior cert?

benway · 04-04-2012 1:27pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The OP is an anarcho-capitalist.

And clearly it follows from this announcement that service levels suffering because of a lack of funding is clearly the fault of the schools, teachers, and unions, and especially public sector inefficiency rather than being a logical consequence of reduced funding.

Lemme guess, privatisiation is what they need. Worked so well for Eircom, after all.

ScumLord · 04-04-2012 1:27pm

Mr. Rager wrote: »

Sorry but you're wrong, unless your talking about primary schools/bogger community schools.

Does Dublin get it's own curriculum now? We all use the same books lad.

Please someone post a link to the new religion book because as far as I remember it was all happy Jesus pictures, my entire religion class consisted of making funny cartoons out of the pictures in the religion book. It was actually my favourite class.

partyatmygaff · 04-04-2012 1:27pm

Getronicle wrote: »

Removing science subjects is ridiculous. How about encouraging students who are going to choose construction studies as a subject to pick physics or chemistry instead? Would seem more reasonable now that there's not much construction happening in the country.

I'd second that... but a lot of the people who studied construction studies (At least in my school) were the ones who "hated siense nd all dat crap"...

titan18 · 04-04-2012 1:31pm

I went to a Catholic school, and religion was taught as an insight into multiple religions and morality, not just Catholicism.

Doctor_Socks · 04-04-2012 1:32pm

Dropping subjects because they're too expensive, that is easily one of the stupidest things i've heard in a long time in this country!! The government wants students to study science and engineering subjects in college yet they want to remove the fundamental subjects students need for these?? Our economy is going to do fantastic when we have a load of LC graduates that don't know anything about science or economics!

I work in engineering and i've heard numerous times that students in secondary schools need better education in science and maths to help get them through 3rd level education!

I don't agree with some posts about abandoning subjects. I hated Irish with an absolute passion in secondary school, but after travelling a lot of the world I realised that the subject thought me a lot about Irish heritage aswell which I really enjoy telling to people when they ask me about where i'm from.

Amalgamation of some subjects could work, but that's going to take even more money to structure the new subject properly for examination in the long run!

micropig · 04-04-2012 1:32pm

About time, these are only nonsense subjects anyway of no importance.physics:rolleyes:Chemistry:rolleyes:Economics..not important at all, no jobs in those ..now religion on the other hand

token56 · 04-04-2012 1:32pm

benway wrote: »

FYP

Physics and chemistry we need, economics is only a bunch of pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo anyhow, no better than religion.

*EDIT

I did music for my leaving, was a while ago at this stage.

Would you care to back this assertion up with some evidence?

Many of the areas within economics have strong underlying mathematical foundations and principles. Many of these are applicable not only in economics but in other disciplines such as engineering. It's far from pseudo-science, to call it that is an insult really.

amacachi · 04-04-2012 1:33pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

Yeah but you coul move school if you wanted to do a particular subject. If they remove them altogether, then what can you do?

In some areas yeah, not in others. Even in big-ish towns there'll only be a choice of a couple of schools for each gender.

Sergeant · 04-04-2012 1:34pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Neither however should be made a scapegoat for the lack of funding. That's the real issue here.

Lack of funding? We had an 83% increase in government spending over the past 15 years across all three levels of education. The issue isn't the amount of taxpayers money that we throw at it, it's the very system itself. 8 billion as opposed to 8.6 billion is still very bad value for money. We've an increasing number of teenage males who are functionally illiterate, and a LC system that emphasises rote learning over critical thought and analysis.

micropig · 04-04-2012 1:34pm

token56 wrote: »

Would you care to back this assertion up with some evidence?

Many of the areas within economics have strong underlying mathematical foundations and principles. Many of these are applicable not only in economics but in other disciplines such as engineering. It's far from pseudo-science, to call it that is an insult really.

engineering:rolleyes:

We need lots of arts students, that'll get the country back on it's feet:p

mikemac1 · 04-04-2012 1:36pm

The best and most famous economists in the land showed themselves up as fools

Where's our soft landing Jim Power?

If we're going to keep the subject I hope the young students do better when it's their turn to comment and lead in twenty years time

Mountainlad · 04-04-2012 1:37pm

amacachi wrote: »

In some areas yeah, not in others. Even in big-ish towns there'll only be a choice of a couple of schools for each gender.

True, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to cut them even further. Like, if effect it's saying ''sure plenty of students don't have the option of doing these subjects, so lets deprive even more.''

starbelgrade · 04-04-2012 1:39pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

...

You can complete the entire exam without so much as mentioning Christianity if you so desired.

I know having a popular rant and getting thanked for it is great... but sometimes knowing what you're talking about can save a lot of embarrassment.

You could have made your point just as easily without throwing the dig in at the end. It was an utterly pointless jab that makes you look like a smart arsed tool.

The simple fact is that 90% of our schools are run by the Church and the Leaving Certificate syllabus has **** all to do with the fact that because the Church has this control over education, the majority of children in the country continue & will continue to be educated under a Catholic doctrine that includes bringing those children through the religious ceremonies of Communion & Confirmation.

If that is not teaching Catholicism, then what the hell is?

pickarooney · 04-04-2012 1:39pm

I believe they should stop trying to teach subjects altogether and instead encourage children to learn, discover and investigate.

wonderfulname · 04-04-2012 1:39pm

partyatmygaff wrote: »

You can complete the entire exam without so much as mentioning Christianity if you so desired.

And the last LC religion paper I did the calculations on you could easily get a C2 at honours level without straying from Catholicism, but that's beside the point, as I'm sure you're well aware feck all students study religion towards an exam, instead many go through the schools own "religion" class, a ridiculous exercise which has no place in our education system.

I have a fun fix for the problem we're having funding nearly empty classrooms, make science compulsory at JC level and design it to better spark interest in the sciences. I went to a school where it was and the vast, vast majority of people went on to take at least one science for the leaving, anyone I meet who gives out about the difficulty of science subjects generally never studied one.

Mountainlad · 04-04-2012 1:40pm

mikemac1 wrote: »

The best and most famous economists in the land showed themselves up as fools

Where's our soft landing Jim Power?

If we're going to keep the subject I hope the young students do better when it's their turn to comment and lead in twenty years time

Not everyone that does Economics is going to be an Economist. It has practical uses in day to day life, and gives an understanding of how our financial systems work on a basic level and a broader level. If there are less people educated in this field, how are people going to people able to challenge decisions made by the government if they haven't a clue what's actually going on?

A Primal Nut · 04-04-2012 1:41pm

karma_ wrote: »

Save your faux rage, if you had your way all education would be privatised.

Surely the fact that public schools are being forced to drop the most important subject is one more reason to support privatisation. The government have always being terrible at providing services and it isn't going to get any better anytime soon.

ScumLord · 04-04-2012 1:41pm

Sergeant wrote: »

Lack of funding? We had an 83% increase in government spending over the past 15 years across all three levels of education. The issue isn't the amount of taxpayers money that we throw at it, it's the very system itself. 8 billion as opposed to 8.6 billion is still very bad value for money. We've an increasing number of teenage males who are functionally illiterate, and a LC system that emphasises rote learning over critical thought and analysis.

I learned next to nothing in school, I was half illiterate (somewhat dyslexic, or stupid as it was known back then) leaving school, since leaving school my grammar is in a completely different league and I actually love learning new things. I'm even a little bit obsessed with learning new things and wish I had my youth back to take advantage of that young supple brain.

The school system is a complete and utter joke, it ruins learning.

benway · 04-04-2012 1:42pm

token56 wrote: »

Would you care to back this assertion up with some evidence?

Many of the areas within economics have strong underlying mathematical foundations and principles. Many of these are applicable not only in economics but in other disciplines such as engineering. It's far from pseudo-science, to call it that is an insult really.

Look, I caught one!

Not 100% serious in that ... although, the a priori mathematical reasoning is often based on unsustainable assumptions about human nature, particularly neoclassical economics, and especially the homo economicus myth. Also, I think that voguish economic theories are more derived from political reality than scientific truth. Agree 100% with this:

http://www.iasc-culture.org/publications_article_2010_Summer_mirowski.php

In truth, I don't think that any subjects should be dropped, but this is a reasonably foreseeable consequence of the government's approach to deficit-reduction by cutting, rather than making a serious attempt to increase revenues.

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Surely the fact that public schools are being forced to drop the most important subject is one more reason to support privatisation. The government have always being terrible at providing services and it isn't going to get any better anytime soon.

So it begins. Was only saying to my mate the other day that it wouldn't be long before the looney right / libertarian fringe started using public sector difficulties owing to funding and staffing problems as further "proof" of Public Sector Inefficiency™.

Some pretty messed up logic, right there - we pull funding from schools, and then blame underfunded schools for not providing the same levels of service they did a couple of years back.

amacachi · 04-04-2012 1:43pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

True, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to cut them even further. Like, if effect it's saying ''sure plenty of students don't have the option of doing these subjects, so lets deprive even more.''

Eh? They're important subjects but kids don't want to do them. They should be near enough top priority.

pickarooney wrote: »

I believe they should stop trying to teach subjects altogether and instead encourage children to learn, discover and investigate.

That should be focussed on the 8 years wasted at Primary School IMO. There's very little in any Leaving Cert subject that's hard to understand or that people who've spent 11 years in education already shouldn't be able to figure out.

04-04-2012 1:44pm

So glad I didn't have religion in school

Schools want to drop LC physics, chemistry, economics

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