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03-03-2012, 05:00   #1
cyberhog
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UN unable to establish whether Gaddafi used mercenaries

We've all heard the accusations made by the Security Council, the ICC, the media aswell as certain members of boards.ie that Gaddafi had employed mercenaries from other African countries, however, The International Commission of Inquiry on Libya has just released its second report and is once again unable to confirm that the allegation is true.


Quote:
Use of Mercenaries

1. Introduction 677.

The Commission in its First Report found that foreign nationals took part in the conflict, particularly on the side of the Qadhafi forces, but indicated that further investigation would be required to determine whether those armed individuals fell into the category of "mercenaries" within the provisions of international law.

678. The Commission notes that the issue of alleged use of mercenaries in the Libyan conflict has received significant focus: for instance, on 17 March 2011, the Security Council passed Resolution 1973 in which it deplored "the continuing use of mercenaries by the Libyan authorities".

968 At a press conference on 16 May 2011, the Office of the Prosecutor at the International Criminal Court indicated it had "direct evidence of Saif Al Islam organizing the recruitment of mercenaries."

969 The issue has also attracted widespread media attention.

...

In the course of its investigations, the Commission has received multiple reports of the use of foreign nationals on the part of the Qadhafi forces. It reviewed videos and photographs purporting to show mercenaries employed by the Government. It was evident that many interviewees used the terms "foreigners" and "mercenaries" interchangeably to describe persons with dark skin who had taken part either in the conflict, or in actions suppressing the demonstrations. Those interviewed usually identified "mercenaries" as coming from sub-Saharan Africa. A minority spoke about mercenaries from the Balkans. As noted in elsewhere in this report, sub-Saharan nationals in Libya were frequently presumed to be mercenaries and this led to their being the victims of attacks as well as arbitrary arrest and detention

...


91. The Commission established that an organised group of Sudanese fighters were brought in by the Qadhafi government specifically to fight the thuwar. The Commission has not found that these fighters were promised or paid material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to local Qadhafi forces, a requirement for these individuals or groups to fall within the definition of a "mercenary" under the United Nations Convention against Mercenaries or under Organization of African Unity (OAU) Convention on Mercenarism. The Commission also determined that there were fighters within the Qadhafi forces who, though of foreign descent, were born in Libya or resident there. They would also fall outside the definition of mercenaries.

...

Conclusion

689. The Commission considers it established that fighters of foreign descent fought alongside Qadhafi forces during the conflict in Libya. It is unable to confirm however that these individuals or groups fall within the definition of a "mercenary" under the United Nations Convention against Mercenaries or under the OAU Convention on Mercenarism given the lack of information about the terms under and purpose for which they were contracted.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-on-libya.html


What the Comission did find is that both sides committed many serious violations, including war crimes but that the rebels continue to do so with impunity.

Quote:
"Breaches of international human rights law continue to occur in a climate of impunity,"

The New York Times notes

Quote:
Certain revenge attacks have continued unabated, particularly the campaign by the militiamen of Misurata to wipe a neighboring town, Tawergha, off the map...the militiamen were continuing to hunt down the residents of the neighboring town no matter where they had fled across Libya. As recently as Feb. 6, militiamen from Misurata attacked a camp in Tripoli where residents of Tawergha had fled, killing an elderly man, a woman and three children,

The commission remains “deeply concerned” that no independent investigations or prosecutions appear to have been instigated into killings by such militias,...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/03/wo...ibya.html?_r=1


It was also widely reported during the fighting last year that Gaddafi's forces were indiscriminately shelling towns and cities but what wasn't reported at the time was that the rebels had adopted similar tactics.

Quote:
"The scale of the destruction there (Sirte) and the nature of the weaponry employed indicated that the attacks were indiscriminate,"
The Commission also found that detainees held by rebels were subjected to "severe torture."

Quote:
The Commission documented a pattern of severe torture perpetrated in particular against Tawerghans by Misratan thuwar, who accuse them of committing rapes and other crimes in Misrata. Detainees told the Commission that they confessed to serious crimes including rape - that they denied committing - after they could no longer withstand the torture.



Last year Cameron told a crowd in Benghazi "Your city was an inspiration to the world as you threw off a dictator and chose freedom," however what this UN report makes clear is that the rebels Cameron found so inspiring are behaving in the same brutal manner as Gaddafi and the NTC are failing miserably to rein them in.

I wonder if that blowhard Cameron still thinks the bloodthirsty rebels are an inspiration to the world?
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03-03-2012, 09:53   #2
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Quote:
The Commission established that an organised group of Sudanese fighters were brought in by the Qadhafi government specifically to fight the thuwar. The Commission has not found that these fighters were promised or paid material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to local Qadhafi forces, a requirement for these individuals or groups to fall within the definition of a "mercenary" under the United Nations Convention against Mercenaries or under Organization of African Unity (OAU) Convention on Mercenarism.
You're clutching at straws.
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03-03-2012, 11:50   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodin View Post
You're clutching at straws.
With all due respect Nodin,the straws you accude cyberhog of clutching,are no different than the straws which the UN clutched at when it embarked upon the 1973 process.

The Libyan situation has not simply ended in a nice Western friendly sense of equilibrium and mutual understanding.

What has developed within the country is a largely uncontrolled regional and/or tribal method of rule which currently has little scope to allow Libyan citizens return to a normal productive life.

I remain of the opinion that Gadaffi's rule,particularly as it was developing in recent times,offered far more coherent realizable opportunities for Libya and it's citizens than the UN/NATO mandated replacement/s.

However,the reality is that the photogenic,central casting "Lunatic Dictator" has been executed,and his somewhat saner looking son remains in captivity (?),therefore the West has moved on to greener democracy seeking pastures...leaving the field of commentary to the likes of Sacha Baron Cohen at the Oscars .....

http://www.haaretz.com/culture/sacha...ywood-1.414742
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03-03-2012, 16:16   #4
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Originally Posted by AlekSmart View Post
With all due respect Nodin,the straws you accude cyberhog of clutching,are no different than the straws which the UN clutched at when it embarked upon the 1973 process.

..........
Actually no. He's claiming they weren't mercenaries on the technicality of pay levels. Now while that might be according to a strict definition, its also true that they came from other countries to fight for, as far as we can tell, money.
Not only that, but the report states not that they definitively did not receive higher pay but that

Quote:
It is unable to confirm however that these individuals or groups fall within the definition of a "mercenary" under the United Nations Convention against Mercenaries or under the OAU Convention on Mercenarism given the lack of information about the terms under and purpose for which they were contracted.

....which is far from a "not guilty" verdict.

Quote:
The Libyan situation has not simply ended in a nice Western friendly sense of equilibrium and mutual understanding.
No!!!!!!!!You don't say!!!!!!!
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03-03-2012, 22:09   #5
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Originally Posted by Nodin View Post
Actually no. He's claiming they weren't mercenaries on the technicality of pay levels. Now while that might be according to a strict definition, its also true that they came from other countries to fight for, as far as we can tell, money.
Not only that, but the report states not that they definitively did not receive higher pay but that


....which is far from a "not guilty" verdict.

No!!!!!!!!You don't say!!!!!!!
So...it hinges on whether the investigative definition of mercenary matches yours...?

Just to be clear on this,I would have no problem admitting that Gadaffi utilized support from other neighbouring states,but it was nowhere near the type of wild eyed mercenary hordes portrayed by the UN/NATO apologists.

Incredible as it may seem,many of Gadaffi's fighting units were comprised of North African Volunteer fighters from a variety of countries...

We're not talking Mad Mike Hoare here....

It's not about being "not guilty" at all,it's about the original reasoning for the UN/NATO action failing to bear close scrutiny.

The notion of "protecting innocent Libyan civillians" is now about as plausible as was German soldiers eating Catholic Babies in 1914/15 Europe.
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04-03-2012, 00:59   #6
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Reminds me of my recent post in another thread on this forum recently...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...0&postcount=61

Gaddafi has been very poorly represented and made out to be the boogie monster to fulfill political agenda. That's what you get for standing up to the mighty "west".

Quote:
Originally Posted by [Jackass] View Post
Alright, well put on your dancing shoes then, and let's do a jig.

Gadaffi's achievements during his REIGN OF TERROR!!:
  • Introduced Democracy
  • Brought Literacy from from 10% to almost full literacy (in the 90% region)
  • Introduced Welfare Payment scheme that did not previously exist
  • Introudced free education that did not exist before
  • Introduced free health care that did not exist before
  • Half of the country (50%) lived in shanties and tents prior to his reign of terror, he introduced housing assistance and finance.
  • Put refinements in to give every citizen free clean water that did not exist previous to his administration
  • Made the nation debt-free
  • Brought the country to the best human-rights rating in all of Africa and was ranked higher than the U.S. close allies of Saudi Arabia
  • Accused a US funded research by Amnesty International produced a report claiming human rights violations and non-evidence backed disapearences, this was then refuted by the United Nations Human Rights Council who priased the high level of progress in human rights in the country.
  • Allowed the formation and free election of opposing parties, mostly based on ethnicity and were allowed entire freedom of expression
  • Was again accused of human rights violations when it was claimed thousands of prisoners were killed in a riot, yet Human rights watch later confirmed there was no evidence of this
  • Allegations of torture were made by oppisition parties, but no human rights association presented any case confirming this

All of this occuring during multiple assassination attempts on Gaddafi, spondored by the US and UK, and decades of claims of violations, none of which have ever been verified and many of which have been disproven over the decades.

He got the oil. He not co-operating. Kill him. And they did.

Now, what was so loloriffic about my original post if you please?
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04-03-2012, 02:15   #7
cyberhog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodin View Post
You're clutching at straws.
I think you'll find the quote you attributed to me is actually from the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodin View Post
Actually no. He's claiming they weren't mercenaries on the technicality of pay levels.
Again the claim you're disingenuously attributing to me was actually made by the UN Commission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodin View Post
....which is far from a "not guilty" verdict.
That's a straw man argument you're offering, since neither I or the UN Commission have claimed "not guilty".
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04-03-2012, 13:53   #8
Nodin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberhog View Post
I think you'll find the quote you attributed to me is actually from the report.



Again the claim you're disingenuously attributing to me was actually made by the UN Commission.



That's a straw man argument you're offering, since neither I or the UN Commission have claimed "not guilty".
You stated
Quote:
The International Commission of Inquiry on Libya has just released its second report and is once again unable to confirm that the allegation is true.
which, in its ommission of the detail, gives rather a false impression.
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04-03-2012, 19:27   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodin View Post
You're clutching at straws.
Ah come on, i'm sure those lads from Niger with the AK47s were just there on holiday.
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05-03-2012, 01:12   #10
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Originally Posted by BlaasForRafa View Post
Ah come on, i'm sure those lads from Niger with the AK47s were just there on holiday.
Or maybe they were there because they supported Gadaffi and his ideals ?

Maybe the fighters from Niger and Chad were fighting in support of their own ideals,which Gadaffi himself had supported down the years.

Gadaffi was a popular leader in the poorer less well administered nations bordering Libya,perhaps that good standing also bothered those who moved the UN to act ?

Idealism,patriotism and all those other brave sounding elements are'nt specific to UN/NATO coalition members,or to young Irish/Libyan lads choosing to fight on far away soil.

That pandoras box opened by UN 1973 and it's subsequent interpretation and enforcement may take time to be fully understood,but I believe it will rebound quite sharply on its backers.
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05-03-2012, 15:34   #11
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so he got them on the cheap is what they're telling us
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05-03-2012, 16:49   #12
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Amnesty International went back on their claim of mercenaries, they say there's simply no proof for it. About 3 minutes in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fAl2...layer_embedded.

The claim that Gaddafi used mercenaries isn't so horrible an idea in it's self,most western armies also use mercenaries, some better known ones having carried out similar crimes to the one's attributed to the mercenaries in Libya.

No, the main reason this claim was made at the time was to delegitimize Gaddafi, make it seem that so many of his men had defected, he had to use mercenaries to stay in power. Obviously we now know that was not true because:

1.Lack of evidence for widespread mercenary use.

2.His level of support even at the end of the war was unusually high for someone who was supposed to have none left. (see streams of civillians leaving sirte still declaring loyalty to Gaddafi/ recent take over of the town of bani walid by former Gaddafi supporters.
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07-03-2012, 16:11   #13
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Quote:
The claim that Gaddafi used mercenaries isn't so horrible an idea in it's self,most western armies also use mercenaries, some better known ones having carried out similar crimes to the one's attributed to the mercenaries in Libya.
I read that a US PMC gave little boys as gifts to an Afghan warlord (he would use them as his sex slaves) to drum up favour from him.
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