Swimming for Tri

shotgunmcos · 25-01-2012 11:11am #1

Inspired by our latest convert to the SBR Challenge

Shouldn't you do 1.5km straight swims with the wetsuit on, not tumble turn and not kick off the wall to keep it relevant?!

Seriously though, worth a discussion IMO...

Is kicking off the wall cheating?
Are longer reps like 300s and 400s not better suited for Tri?
Is there any point in learning to tumble turn?
If Elite swimmers/triathletes are breathing every 2, why is it necessary to learn to bilateral breathe?

RacoonQueen · 25-01-2012 11:30am

Pfft kicking off the wall 40+ times in a session develops the leg muscles. Good for all 3 disciplines.

Izoard · 25-01-2012 11:41am

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Pfft kicking off the wall 40+ times in a session develops the leg muscles. Good for all 3 disciplines.

What? You training for a sprint?:)

BTH · 25-01-2012 11:42am

Is kicking off the wall cheating? A little, but then so is following the tiles along the bottom to stay straight. I say we all ditch the goggles too!

Are longer reps like 300s and 400s not better suited for Tri? I'm going to bow to interested's greater knowledge on this and just do as he says.

Is there any point in learning to tumble turn? No. It's just showing off.

If Elite swimmers/triathletes are breathing every 2, why is it necessary to learn to bilateral breathe? It's not. So I havent learned!

RacoonQueen · 25-01-2012 11:46am

Izoard wrote: »

What? You training for a sprint?:)

40+ :pac:

And my pool is 33m - 62 lengths does the job for me.

pgibbo · 25-01-2012 12:00pm

IMO, bilateral breathing is worthwhile. It keeps your stroke balanced and also gives you the option to breath to the other side in OW swims if the swell isn't favourable. Granted you probably won't swim bilaterally when working hard or racing but in general I think it's good practice. I know the swim smooth folks are strong advocates of it.

I've seen people with faster open turns than guys that tumble turn so it's not a necessity but it does look good when done right. I still haven't taken the time to learn it though.

300's and 400's are good and should definitely be in your sessions. So should 100s and 50s. It's a balance and you should mix up your sessions so you don't just do 100s all the time.

tunney · 25-01-2012 12:11pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Inspired by our latest convert to the SBR Challenge

Shouldn't you do 1.5km straight swims with the wetsuit on, not tumble turn and not kick off the wall to keep it relevant?!

I know people who advocate this - their form is sh!t and they do bad bad times

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Seriously though, worth a discussion IMO...

Is kicking off the wall cheating?

No, why would it be? Its part and parcel of pool swimming. Want to bot have a wall to kick off - then OW swim

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Are longer reps like 300s and 400s not better suited for Tri?

Only if they are done with good form. Most triathletes are only reinforcing bad habits by doing 400s.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Is there any point in learning to tumble turn?

Essential. Touch turns break your rhythm and give a split second breather. Tumbles keep you honest.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

If Elite swimmers/triathletes are breathing every 2, why is it necessary to learn to bilateral breathe?

Are you basing the Elite swimmers breathing every 2 on competition footage by any chance?

shotgunmcos · 25-01-2012 12:19pm

tunney wrote: »

Are you basing the Elite swimmers breathing every 2 on competition footage by any chance?

Yep, both swimming and Tri.

tunney · 25-01-2012 12:19pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Yep, both swimming and Tri.

"COMPETITION FOOTAGE". Waits for penny..............

catweazle · 25-01-2012 12:30pm

I wouldn't really see kicking off the wall as cheating as long as you are doing the distances. Having to start from a standing start every lap would be a nightmare and overkill as you wouldn't be stopping if can be helped in the race

I suppose the tumble turns stop the sneaky break you might have in the longer sets which isn't great if you are doing long distance. But if you are trying to keep to a time I don't see it as much of a problem. I can do them but I get the breathing wrong going in and coming out of them so I am left gasping for air after turning so I don't go near them

I can breathe bilaterally but very rarely do - i make conscious efforts in warm up and warm down to do it but when the sets are difficult I know myself i am faster every 2

Longer sets are good for endurance, I enjoy a long OW swim during the summer where I just swim for a decent period of time. The faster sets increase your cruising speed over time

Training in OW - I am always surprised that peoples pool times are far better than their open water times. I find it easier to swim with the wetsuit on as it helps the body position. I think its important to get out at least once a week from May on

shotgunmcos · 25-01-2012 12:32pm

tunney wrote: »

"COMPETITION FOOTAGE". Waits for penny..............

Is triathlon not a race? Where are you going with this? I get that they are sucking in the oxygen to maintain the effort, keeping and eye on moves, tactics etc... Even 1500m f/s swimmers breathe every 2 and switch sides to watch bothe sides of the pool. What am I missing?

Bringing it back to the application of bilateral breathing.. what are your throughts on that?

donothoponpop · 25-01-2012 12:33pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

If Elite swimmers/triathletes are breathing every 2, why is it necessary to learn to bilateral breathe?

I'm just starting back swimming after a few years absence, and keen to not introduce bad habits. Breathing every 4th stroke suits me in training, but I was told as a kid that this will overdevelop one side of your stroke, and lead to muscular problems after a while (and I suppose an associated drift from straight line). Don't know how true that is, but I guess I should try breathing every 3rd.

tunney · 25-01-2012 12:38pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Is triathlon not a race? Where are you going with this? I get that they are sucking in the oxygen to maintain the effort, keeping and eye on moves, tactics etc... Even 1500m f/s swimmers breathe every 2 and switch sides to watch bothe sides of the pool. What am I missing?

Bringing it back to the application of bilateral breathing.. what are your throughts on that?

Racing versus training.

Train bilaterally to get a balanced even stroke. Race as you will.

interested · 25-01-2012 12:41pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Shouldn't you do 1.5km straight swims with the wetsuit on, not tumble turn and not kick off the wall to keep it relevant?!

Ive done these - a set of 6*1500 off 20 long course at UF one sunny morning a long time ago. Since the rest of the squad were racing Id to report back my times and average 100 splits for all 6. Everyone drifts but focusing on the clock and (as Tunney says) form at a particular level of effort is key. A lot of people are still getting used to swimming with the clock so the longer the intervals, the less likely they'll be to hold pace. 15*100's holding 1.25 off 1.35 - will arguably ensure focus and quality from a session.

Is it not like this with biking and running as well ? start the sport of triathlon - happy to get about - just do long spins on the bike and long runs ? want to push things on @ pace ... suddenly intervals ... percentages ... lions, tigers, bears .. oh my !

Seriously though, worth a discussion IMO...

Evil .. IMO

Is kicking off the wall cheating?
Is there any point in learning to tumble turn?

Nope and Yep, turns are NOT for resting. In the right hands tumble turns, kicking off the wall are a weapon. They're part of the discipline of pool swimming, they help maintain lane order and when presented with people idling about on the bank fully dressed can break the monotony of a long set by creating a wave that will soak their pants. Never fails to crack me up.

Are longer reps like 300s and 400s not better suited for Tri?

Yep, again the bit about focus and holding a pace. But only 400's .. Im not a big fan of 'funny' distances like 150's, 300's etc .. but its probably just me. I'd honestly love to give out a set of 6*400's off 6.30 for a particular group of swimmers but at the moment I feel they get more from something like 6*200's + 3 sets of 4 * 100's or similar ... focus, more feedback from the coach ... which many don't have apart from 1 hour a week.

If Elite swimmers/triathletes are breathing every 2, why is it necessary to learn to bilateral breathe?

learning to breath bilaterally and employing in when training helps 'balance' the stroke as much as possible. People will favour one side or another and will over-extend the opposing arm (to the side they breath to) arguably too much which puts strain on the smaller muscles in the front of the shoulder and is - recently - considered less efficient than maintaining a more shallow pull. Some squads now use 'centre' snorkels to allow people to swim sets 'feeling' without breathing which helps identify any strangeness.

Elite swimmers / triathletes when racing may swim differently when racing and training ... which Im guessing where Tunney's question came from.

pgibbo · 25-01-2012 1:45pm

tunney wrote: »

Only if they are done with good form. Most triathletes are only reinforcing bad habits by doing 400s.

Do you not think that are needed every now and again, even if done with less than perfect form? If nothing else it might give weaker swimmers a mental boost knowing they are capable of swimming longer sets?

I agree with your comment on form, etc but feel that the 400s have their place every now and again.

griffin100 · 25-01-2012 1:52pm

Ive done these - a set of 6*1500 off 20 long course at UF one sunny morning a long time ago.

I need to lie down after reading that :eek:

tunney · 25-01-2012 3:09pm

pgibbo wrote: »

Do you not think that are needed every now and again, even if done with less than perfect form? If nothing else it might give weaker swimmers a mental boost knowing they are capable of swimming longer sets?

I agree with your comment on form, etc but feel that the 400s have their place every now and again.

I agree 400s have their place of course. But if you got a set for next week which would you think would allow you hold better form and not reinforce sloppy habits?

10x400m on 8
or
40x100m? on 2

pgibbo · 25-01-2012 3:48pm

tunney wrote: »

I agree 400s have their place of course. But if you got a set for next week which would you think would allow you hold better form and not reinforce sloppy habits?

10x400m on 8
or
40x100m? on 2

Both would make me put my tail between my legs and go home!

Point taken and without fail the 100s would be the better option

shotgunmcos · 26-01-2012 11:55am

tunney wrote: »

I agree 400s have their place of course. But if you got a set for next week which would you think would allow you hold better form and not reinforce sloppy habits?

10x400m on 8
or
40x100m? on 2

Another way of looking at the 400s is that they create more awareness of your technique IMO and at what point it starts to melt down.

BTW I agree that the 10*4s would be more susceptible to reinforcing bad habits, I'm just offering a different perspective.

In my lane I find the group stays relatively together with sets of 100s even if the back of the lane are barely making the RTs. However extend the set to 400s and it usually breaks apart. Its not down to fitness as everyone in the lane is more or less swim fit. Its just down to swim efficiency.

I find that the set of 4s is not just a really good endurance test but it preesents the opportunity to really test you efficiency. To an extent you can muscle your way through a set of 100s (albeit 40 of thm would check that!).

Right now I'm faster than my nemesis over 50s and 100s and maybe even 200s but if we were to do a 1500 she would cruise a faster time and leave me red faced.

Interested once pointed out to me that there may be a tendency to 'drift off' in anything longer than 400. I took that as meaning the 400s was about as far as you could keep your mind set on form before going onto auto-pilot. Auto-pilot being the place of reinforcing the bad habits.

BennyMul · 26-01-2012 2:10pm

Is there a difference between doing a long straight swim e.g. 2K or 20*100, 10*200 etc?

why is the feeling here, is there any advantage in doing the straight swim, once, twice a month?

thanks

pgibbo · 26-01-2012 2:30pm

It comes down to the point the lads are making above about holding form. Form will be hard to hold for a straight 2k.

Personally, I didn't swim a straight 3.8km in the lead up to Barcelona. The onlt time I have ever done a straight 750, 1500, 1900 or 3800 has been in races. Others approach things differently but I know that my stroke isn't good enough to hold good form for the longer distances in training.

BennyMul · 26-01-2012 2:51pm

thanks Pgibbo

tunney · 26-01-2012 4:33pm

Oh the boredom of 2km straight.

I used to see some lads that did similar with water walkmen. Waste of time.

shotgunmcos · 27-01-2012 1:59pm

I actually like 2k straight from time to time. Its short enough so you can be in and out and showered in an hour. Its just long enough to feel like a nice aerobic workout but not long enough to turn into a session. Simple up and down the pool 20 times steady. Ad hoc bits of other strokes, sprints, tumble turns etc if the mood takes you. All done in a nice relaxed rhythm

Oryx · 27-01-2012 2:27pm

When I do 2k 'straight' I mean I dont take breaks. Each 100 I do try to either focus on one particular part of the stroke, or concentrate on position etc, in other words, to keep my mind on the job. Sometimes Ill do multiples of 25m hard 25 easy as part of a longer set. Am I wasting my time? Should I do things differently?

shotgunmcos · 27-01-2012 3:55pm

Oryx wrote: »

When I do 2k 'straight' I mean I dont take breaks. Each 100 I do try to either focus on one particular part of the stroke, or concentrate on position etc, in other words, to keep my mind on the job. Sometimes Ill do multiples of 25m hard 25 easy as part of a longer set. Am I wasting my time? Should I do things differently?

No you are not wasting your time. Howver focusing on something different for 20 consecutive 100s?! I'd generally pick one or maybe 2 things tops to focus on and focus on it for the whole thing.

A hundred and one ways to split a 2k set though to get bang for buck. A quick one might be

6*50 as kick/drill 25 swim 25 for warm up
5*200 with descending RTs
1 minute rest
5*100 with decending RTs
1 minute rest
4*25 max effort/ or 2*50 max if LC
100m cool down any stroke but f/s

pgibbo · 27-01-2012 4:21pm

So one question I have is - what level does a swimmer need to be at before tackling long distance straight swims? Is being able to swim 1:45 or faster for 2k straight comfortably that value or something else? I'm assuming that once you reach a certain level your form won't suffer near as much as say a 2:00+ per 100 swimmer.

interested · 30-01-2012 1:51pm

pgibbo wrote: »

So one question I have is - what level does a swimmer need to be at before tackling long distance straight swims? Is being able to swim 1:45 or faster for 2k straight comfortably that value or something else? I'm assuming that once you reach a certain level your form won't suffer near as much as say a 2:00+ per 100 swimmer.

I'm probably not understanding the question here chief but ... imho

a) swim, swim regularly - for enjoyment, for fitness, for an escape from the real world. Typically the more time a person spends in water the more relaxed they are.

b) If a person is relaxed and comfortable in the water they're much more likely to take up instruction from a coach about one or two things related to their stroke. They're more aware in the water.

c) Most kids when being taught to swim don't do intervals - they will do alot of drills - kick, single arm etc, kicking on the back ... the elements of the various strokes and as they advance along the learning curve they may do things like diving etc. Its only if they have an interest in competitive swimming will they move to sets / intervals / clock work.

So ... for alot of triathletes starting out ... that want to get around a 750 or 1500 swim ... my advice would be to swim, get instruction from a single source where possible regarding your stroke - take on fixing or improving one or two things at a time as you go. The more you swim, the confidence grows ... it is possible to do 750/1500/1900/3800 without stopping, with bilateral breathing with the prettiest stroke in the pool

To improve on that ... sets focus swimmers to train at a target pace that is easier to adhere to when utilising the clock than via feel. There probably arent that many that know what 1.30 pace 'feels' like ... over and over ... so doing sets on a target pace -5 seconds for sets of 100's, 200's, 400's or 800's can help. Help with confidence, swim endurance and enable coaches to correctly adjust sets and intervals to enable swimmers that are trying to improve to get their bodies used to rep times and the desired pace.

To try to answer the question "So one question I have is - what level does a swimmer need to be at before tackling long distance straight swims? Is being able to swim 1:45 or faster for 2k straight comfortably that value or something else?"

People starting out should do their best to keep good form and try and swim for Xk straight for their confidence. Anyone capable of doing 4*100 f/s on an interval time of 2min or less probably has a good enough stroke to manage Xk straight but imho will get more value from doing sets that will help improve their swim endurance / fitness over shorther / faster intervals.

Clear as mud ?

as always, just another opinion on D'internet

DaveR1 · 31-01-2012 7:20pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Is kicking off the wall cheating?

Is there any point in learning to tumble turn?
QUOTE]

I'm not sure about kicking off the wall but NOT tumble turning is definitely CHEATING.
By not tumble turning it allows you to take a cheap breath, which can give a lot more air than a breath during the length. You are not breathing on a swim stroke!!!
However, it is slower so I tumble!

shotgunmcos · 31-01-2012 11:27pm

DaveR1 wrote: »

I'm not sure about kicking off the wall but NOT tumble turning is definitely CHEATING.
By not tumble turning it allows you to take a cheap breath, which can give a lot more air than a breath during the length. You are not breathing on a swim stroke!!!
However, it is slower so I tumble!

I practiced a couple taking shotgunjunior swimming last week. Maybe made 1 out of 10 attempts look vaguely like its supposed to although sh!t slow. Some morning I'll try one in the lane when there isn't someone within 10m of my feet! I'd only cause injury if I tried one in a regular set, not that you would be in harms way

Notwitch · 01-02-2012 12:30pm

I tried swimming with a band around my ankles for the first time yesterday.

Only reason I wasn't vertical by the end of the first length was because the pool was so shallow. Lifeguards were getting itchy in their seats.

I was certainly more aware of my body position afterwards. So for me it's very tough but it seems to be both a strength and body position workout.

Oryx · 01-02-2012 12:53pm

Notwitch wrote: »

I tried swimming with a band around my ankles for the first time yesterday.

Only reason I wasn't vertical by the end of the first length was because the pool was so shallow. Lifeguards were getting itchy in their seats.

I was certainly more aware of my body position afterwards. So for me it's very tough but it seems to be both a strength and body position workout.

I tried a drag ring a few weeks ago. I struggled with it, my stroke went to pot, and my feet dragged the pool floor. In the deep end I would probably drown. I thought it was useless for my level of ability.

Worst thing is I had to go buy one for club sessions.

shotgunmcos · 01-02-2012 1:25pm

Interesting topic actually.

Do you naturally float? My sister swims once in a blue moon but can easily lie on her back on float away. Despite all my swimming my legs sink no matter what body poition I contort myself into. or how much I hold my breath or relax....

Got me wondering if your legs are naturally just prone to sinking or floating?
Is it to do with the lean weight of your leg?

Oryx · 01-02-2012 1:30pm

My legs sink, and I have had to work hard to get correct body position. I cant swim drills with feet crossed, for instance, I end up dragging the floor. Coach was a bit disinterested when I said the drag ring was an issue, just said Id have to work on it. HTFU yet again.

BTH · 01-02-2012 1:42pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Interesting topic actually.

Do you naturally float? My sister swims once in a blue moon but can easily lie on her back on float away. Despite all my swimming my legs sink no matter what body poition I contort myself into. or how much I hold my breath or relax....

Got me wondering if your legs are naturally just prone to sinking or floating?
Is it to do with the lean weight of your leg?

I'm not sure, but I've had a swim coach saying he was going to get a collection going to buy me arse implants so that I might float. He has also suggested McDonalds for lunch everyday.

RedB · 01-02-2012 2:02pm

My chunky legs seem to naturally sink. I had to use three floats during sculling drills recently

.
My OW swims seem to be easier due to wetsuit buoyancy

DaveR1 · 01-02-2012 2:39pm

Coming from my Physics background - If something is more dense than water it sinks, less dense it floats. Its not the weight that matter its the density -
Mass divided by Volume

Densities:
Water = 1
Bone = 1.5
Muscle = 1.06
Fat = 0.91

From these results, it is clear that the more muscle and bone your legs have, the higher your leg density is, the more they will sink. i.e Chunky legs are bad!!
Legs with less muscle and more fat will float as the density will be close to 1.
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS5zpQqbalw&list=PLCAB44595BDD39B39&index=18&feature=plpp_video
Skip to 1.30!!!

As for legs sinking during drills this is the reason the pull bouy was invented! My legs sink and for all drills with legs tied together etc I use the pull bouy. Still makes you work the arms and focus on body position but allows the legs to stay afloat and streamline.

Nwm2 · 01-02-2012 2:47pm

Now, i know nothing about swimming. But this guy does:

http://joelfilliol.blogspot.com/2012/01/most-popular-post-on-this-blog-is-is.html?spref=tw

The Top 20 Rules for Faster Triathlon Swimming

1. Conditioning trumps drills. Technique matters, but the way most athletes try to improve technique doesn't work. Get fitter, and your ability to hold good technique improves. It takes a lot of work to develop aerobic conditioning in your upper body. If you think you are already swimming a lot but are not improving, swim more and keep at it. There are no shortcuts.

2. Traditional drills don't work. The type of drills and the way that most triathletes do them don't actually have any material effect on swimming technique.

3. Swim more often. Frequency is the best way to improve your swimming. Also see rule #4

4. Do longer main sets. You can't expect to swim fast and be fresh on the bike if you rarely do main sets with the same or higher volume and pace than you expect in the race. For short course these should be at least 2km, for IM 4km, or more. And that looks like 20-50x100, not many short broken sets adding up to 2-5km.

5. Don't over think it. Don't under think it. Be engaged with what you are doing in the water, and use tools to help get a better feel for the water. But don't over think every stroke, and suffer from paralysis by analysis. Swimming fast is about rhythm and flow, when good technique becomes automatic.

6. Increased swim fitness translates to the bike and run. Being able to swim harder, starting the bike both fresher and with faster riders is how that works.

7. Deep swim fitness allows you to swim on the rivet. See rule #6. Most triathletes don't know how to really swim hard for the duration.

8. Include some quality in every swim. If you are swimming less than 5x per week, having easy swims is a waste of time. Always include quality, from band, to paddles, to sprints, in every swim.

9. Don't count strokes. See rule #2. The objective is to get faster, not take fewer strokes.

10. Learn now to use your kick but don't spend a lot of time with kick sets. Kicking is about stroke control and body position, not propulsion for triathlon. Kick fitness doesn't matter.

11. Use a band frequently. The best swimming drill there is. Do short reps with lots of rest at first. Both propulsion and body position will improve.

12. Use paddles with awareness of engaging lats. Paddles are primarily a technical tool to take more strokes with better mechanics, the result of which is learning how to use your prime swimming movers: your lats.

13. Keep head low on breathing and in open water. Head down, feet up. It's a common body position error.

14. Do many short repetitions for stroke quality. It takes fitness to swim with good technique for long durations. Start shorter, and swim faster. 50x50 works wonders. Don't have time to do a 2500m main set? Drop the warm up and warm down.

15. Learn to swim with a higher stroke rate. This takes conditioning. It will pay off on race day, and particularly anytime swimming in a group and in rough conditions.

16. If you need to write your swim session down on the white board or paper, it's too complicated. Keep it simple.

17. Find a good masters programme. Long main sets is a good sign. Swim with others to challenge yourself. Good programmes are the exception rather than the norm, unfortunately.

18. Don't use swim tools as a crutch. Paddles and bull buoys are tools with specific uses. Don't reach for them out of simple laziness, because the set is hard.

19. Do use swim tools when you are very fatigued, and will otherwise swim with poor quality. See Rule #18.

20. Dry land and gym can help swimming for some via improved neuromuscular recruitment. Use body weight and tubing not machines.

Bonus: Love swimming if you want to get faster. Embrace the process of getting faster in the water. Chlorine sweat is a good thing.

Follow the rules above to swim faster, and ultimately to be a faster triathlete. Enjoy.

DaveR1 · 01-02-2012 2:53pm

I like Rule 9!!!

shotgunmcos · 01-02-2012 3:28pm

DaveR1 wrote: »

I like Rule 9!!!

Its fine for sprints

So why do coaches advocate efficiency with a lower stroke rate? better economy, lower heart rate, more power in the water?

Cheers for the lab answer on sinking legs BTW, I'll hold off on giving it to my sister though

eoglyn · 01-02-2012 4:13pm

I have got to make me one of those bands - sounds really tough

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 01-02-2012 4:43pm

Notwitch wrote: »

I tried swimming with a band around my ankles for the first time yesterday.

Only reason I wasn't vertical by the end of the first length was because the pool was so shallow. Lifeguards were getting itchy in their seats.

I was certainly more aware of my body position afterwards. So for me it's very tough but it seems to be both a strength and body position workout.

I fvking cringe when the coach sets me band work in the pool, its bloody tough going trying not to let the legs sink to the bottom.

Nwm2 · 01-02-2012 6:12pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Its fine for sprints

So why do coaches advocate efficiency with a lower stroke rate? better economy, lower heart rate, more power in the water?

Some coaches do, and there may be a difference between racing for Olympics and Ironman, but if you look at the top pro and AG athletes the stroke rate is very high (especially in Olympic distance), and the top coaches of those top athletes are coaching that way.

Again, I am an awful swimmer so certainly everything I say can be discounted, but here is the opinion on one of the very best coaches (Darren Smith) where I have highlighted some relevant statements, but the whole thing is worth a read.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]I've had the pleasure to help some good number of athletes improve their swims very significantly, incl barb riveros, nordo, kate roberts, lauren campbell and others making WCS first packs for the first time.
My latest projects are Anne Haug (GER trying to make London) and Bart Aernouts (2010 world du champ who races 70.3 now) and like the others they are investing a LOT of effort, mental energy and wet and dry time to the challenge. Mileage about 30kpw, 7-8 sessions/weekly, 2 massage sessions/wk, core and specific muscle work also and after months we make really strong gains, but while we normally need two such off seasons to make the first pack, we normally get there. Sutto and I are miles away in methodology, but I would suggest that I now am getting close to his level of impact, and I'll give some insight into our approach and common errors:
We make great gains with multiple swims a day (every second day), broken into a skill based session and then fitness based session within the daily sequence only long enough to keep skills (under fitness load) at an acceptible level. We spend 'dry' time to improve ROM (with our team rehab guy) and specific strength; plus in every single case i have had to undo bad skills or very poor previous coaching, even from olympic medalist level swim coaches (eg my latest projects):
What i normally get is someone who:
1. pulls the water and has no idea about leavering the body past the forearm - guys, there is no such thing as pulling with your hand vis rowing like, rather think kayaking where the core is working lots.
2. kicks a 6 beat which is out of timing with their hips and they also kick from the knee creating more drag at the knee and via the bubbles produced at the foot than it is worth -guys we teach correct kick action (often 2 beat) that help the action of hips coordinate with the upper body and loosen the bits that create drag. also we drop the feet back in the water rather than above it and have people kick from the hip
3. range of motion is 30% or more below par and this causes overreaching the centreline, poor alignment but the bottomline is both propulsion and drag is compromised - athletes act bewildered when we finally get enough range to let them function properly
4. they know little of how to sort out body position - why drag an anchor when you don't need to?
5. they spend way too much time gliding and worrying about s shape pulls and what 'feel' they have in their hands - forget it guys there are so many bubbles when swimming in a pack the front end has no 'feel' even if you could
6. they are all weak - mid to back end of the stroke is the place to get the gains, so become strong
6. lastly they freak out in pack in the OW and cannot swim straight to save their life - we teach them to swim in the open water and this week we did two sessions in the open water over an hour each with specific longer and short duration efforts in packs with feedback from a coach sitting in a kayak so that tells you have much we rank this activity

But you will never hear me say 'strokes per length', we don't do any total Immersion stuff, do not rush no matter what, and I haven't used a stop watch in the first 2 months of this 2012 prep yet. There is a time and a place for everything.
For age groupers I have some thoughts - invest in ROM, build specific swim based strength, don't get fancy (look up cricket bowling and use that as a stroke recovery action), and mix up the workouts with absolutely no slow FS swimming in the warm down (get rid of the fluff), and forget min strokes per length.
Hope this has helped,
Daz [/FONT][/FONT]

This comes from an outstanding Slowtwitch thread:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=3702958#3702958

pgibbo · 01-02-2012 6:31pm

Where did you pull that from Nwm2?

Nwm2 · 01-02-2012 6:35pm

pgibbo wrote: »

Where did you pull that from Nwm2?

Sorry - edited with source now.

interested · 02-02-2012 9:16am

re: top 20 rules

lots of familiar stuff in here - bit I liked the best and one of the most applicable tips was 'There are no shortcuts.'

Sadly, so true.

This bit 'Learn to swim with a higher stroke rate. This takes conditioning. It will pay off on race day, and particularly anytime swimming in a group and in rough conditions. ' is of interest I reckon. Granted the article is a guiding list of tips ... but, that said, swimming with a high stroke rate in rough conditions in my opinion is often not the best approach.

Staying calm, maintaining form, maintaining a good kick, ensuring you're swimming the shortest line to the target turn / finish (and taking advantage of any draft of leading swimmers) would be a lot higher on my priority list in heavy water than increasing my stroke rate. In certain conditions Ive found it more effective to slow down my stroke rate and focus on timing efforts between waves and keeping my kick going - but I'd doubt any triathlon swim would go ahead when the conditions are similar.

And my own throw away comment - if you increase your stroke rate in the pool or sea just make sure you don't shorten the length of your arm pull under the water

catweazle · 15-02-2012 12:10pm

Most of ye are probably signed up for swim smooth newsletters but it got me through today when the head was telling me to quit while I was ahead!

Getting In Some Weekly Discomfort

You're swimming a set of 8x 200m and you are on number three. Your heart rate is high and your breathing deep, and you're feeling some heaviness and burn from your muscles as they resist the effort. There's still another five reps to go, perhaps 15 or 20 minutes of hard work ahead of you, which right now seems like an eternity.

What are your thought process in this situation? Are you longing to stop? Thinking of a good excuse to shorten the set? Or perhaps you avoid training sets completely knowing they are uncomfortable?

This 'discomfort time' is the critical period where your body's systems are challenged so that after the session they adapt and you gain fitness. Without reaching this point you won't gain the fitness improvements you are looking for. So this 'discomfort time' is not just unavoidable when fitness training, it should be something you are actively seeking out.

The psychology here is very important, don't think: "God, this is really tough."

Instead, replace that thought with: "OK, this is what it is all about. Swim it out, one stroke and one lap at a time."

Embrace the discomfort as a place you want to be and you will have fundamentally changed your thinking. From there on training sets start to feel much easier.

Staying In The Moment

It's a sporting cliché to tell someone to 'stay in the moment' but within a challenging fitness set it's absolutely critical that you do. Never think ahead but simply focus on your stroke movements and your breathing rhythm as the effort becomes challenging. It can be a good idea to monitor your technique but only ever think about one thing and keep it very simple, for instance you might choose to focus on:

- Exhaling smoothly into the water

- Lightly tapping your big toes together as they pass - 'tap tap tap'

- Keeping one goggle in the water and one out when you breathe

- Pressing the water backwards, not downwards

It's essential you keep these thoughts very simple as most of your focus will be required to maintain your effort and pace things out well.

Make Sure You Are Distance Training, Not Sprint Training

If you've been following Swim Smooth for a while you will know we are big fans of CSS / threshold training. This involves sustaining a strong pace for longer periods with short recoveries and is quite distinct from sprint training which is attacked at a faster pace but with longer recovery periods.

Swimming at this pace does not feel like sprint training and the effort progressively builds over the set while holding the same pace. Initially it may feel around 6 out of 10 for effort but progressively builds up to a 9 out of 10 by the end of the set. Pacing these sets well is essential (with the same pace for each repetition) even if you have to start a little slower, that way you will get the right fitness gains and can maintain your stroke technique throughout.

CSS / threshold pace targets the energy systems critical to distance swimming performance so that they adapt and improve. Sports scientists call this training principle 'specificity' and it really works - experience some consistent weekly discomfort in your CSS sets and your swimming will come on leaps and bounds. It could be just what you are lacking with your swimming.

Swim Smooth!

Swimming for Tri

Comments