The Modern Gentleman's Etiquette

later12 · 11-01-2012 07:00AM #1

Most young boys are taught the basics of male etiquette: always hold a door open for a lady, never sit before a lady sits, always walk on the kerb side of your lady friend; and so on.

However, my question is not quite so deeply based upon tradition.

What I really want to know, is whether it is about time that we, as grown men, developed our own social customs to replace these outdated chivalries; and fought for new traditions, forming a new social code that describes all things from paying for restaurant bills to endorsing social media statuses, all of which are compatible with our own world views.

If you could compose a 21st century handbook of gentleman's etiquette, I'd be interested to know what you would write!

Otis Driftwood · 11-01-2012 09:11AM

I have to say,I like these traditions and certainly dont see them as being outdated.

Any time Im with a lady friend,be it on a date,being out with a friend or in a relationship little things like pulling out her chair when she goes to sit down or holding her jacket to help her put it on always go down really well.

Some people may view them as being antiquated but I dont and as long as I live,I will continue to do so.

minidazzler · 11-01-2012 10:43AM

later10 wrote: »

walk on the kerb side of your lady friend; and so on.

Hmm, I've always lived by "The lady is always right" for me it's just comfortable to walk with a lady friend on my right.

I am generally a pretty good gentleman to women. I quite like the "old etiquette, it works and is generally the right way to go about things, I don't think a new code could really be "developed" it's more of an evolutionary thing that changes as time goes by.

That said, I was in a pub one night early enough, standing with friends at a high table chatting away when a girl, who was a bit worse for wear tried to take on of the high chairs which we weren't using anyway. I was gobsmacked when one of my friends said she couldn't have it and pulled it back. After I regained composure from his dickishness I made him carry the chair to where she was standing and say apologize by guilting and giving out to him in front of loudly in front of about 2 dozen people. The funny thing about it was we were having a "suit" night so we were all dressed up to the nines and basically when you look like that you should act the gentleman, he was swiftly dressed down.

The single most timeless thing in a gentleman's etiquette chest I think, is that you give your jacket to a lady when walking outside and it's cold.

TommyKnocker · 11-01-2012 11:32AM

later10 wrote: »

Most young boys are taught the basics of male etiquette: always hold a door open for a lady, never sit before a lady sits, always walk on the kerb side of your lady friend; and so on.
!

IMHO if this statement is true, then it appears to be falling on deaf ears.

I am a 49 yr old guy and I was taught to behave like this as a child by my parents and seen both my father and grandfather behave in this fashion.

However I have rarely if ever seen a teenager or 20 something guy of their own volition hold doors open, wait until a lady sits before sitting, Stand up if she leaves the table, walk with the lady on the right, give up seats when there is a lady standing, hold coats, give up their jacket when it's cold, hold the umbrella in the rain, carry bags, help ladies with prams/buggies on & off busses/trains etc.

And while most ladies appreciate the above acts, I have on more then a few occasions seen ladies appear shocked when a guy performs one of the above acts.

I would actually like to see this become the norm again as it's nice to be nice, rather than consign it to history and try to come up with another code of conduct.

MyKeyG · 11-01-2012 11:40AM

Yeah a lot of people (women as well as men) think that the evolution of equality should somehow start to negate custom but I quite enjoy the little chivalrous ways even if it is becoming less and less common. I think the only way you can change something like that is to cease educating in our children and I don't see myself doing that. I don't have kids but I'm 11 years older than my sister and I would often tell her that she should expect the man to be chivalrous.

On the other hand looking at the antics of a lot of the schoolgirls in town at lunch time young men would be forgiven for not realising there is a certain etiquette regarding 'ladies'.

Sauve · 11-01-2012 11:44AM

From a female point of view, I think chivalry is alive and well. Sure, the usual gestures like pulling out a chair and putting on a coat are a nice touch and always appreciated, but what I find among my group of male friends is a much more sensible down to earth approach.
If something happens to my car, they'll just take it and get it sorted, even though I'm perfectly able, it's what they're good at, and they seem to pride in 'rescuing' me.
If we're on a night out, it's as if they have a 'stranger danger' sensor! I could be at the opposite end of a bar, and as soon as I'm hassled by a drunken eegit, they appear out of nowhere.
If I leave somewhere alone late at night, I'll usually get a text from one of them to make sure I got home ok.

Tl;dr-

When I'm in the company of male friends, the most modern display of chivalry is them giving me the feeling that they 'got my back'.

ToxicPaddy · 11-01-2012 02:39PM

Sauvignon82 wrote: »

When I'm in the company of male friends, the most modern display of chivalry is them giving me the feeling that they 'got my back'.

I make a point of this when out with friends, male and female, especially if there are younger members of the group like work colleagues who have had a bit too much to drink..

As a result Im sometimes called the Daddy of the group :pac:

Sauve · 11-01-2012 02:53PM

I think every group has one of you TP

(I don't know why, but I thought you were in your early 20s'!)

It doesn't have to be in situations where alcohol is involved either, it applies to everything.

A poster above said that young guys have lost the chivalrous touch- I have to say I disagree. Around where I live, the young lads are a hell of a lot more mannerly than they were when I was a teenager. All it takes is one or two guys to do it and the rest seem to catch on fairly quickly.

awec · 11-01-2012 02:55PM

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Hyperbullet · 11-01-2012 03:02PM

I tend to hold doors etc for women because it's just a nice thing to do. I have encountered some odd reactions though.

Most women just smile politely or say thanks or whatever, but I have had several instances where "I don't need your f*cking help" or "I'm capable of opening a door you know" in a pretty sh*te tone have been uttered. Granted people are entitled to an off day but it does make me wonder sometimes if the notion of being chivalrous or the typical "gentleman's etiquette" are somehow perceived as patronising nowadays.

jaffacakesyum · 11-01-2012 03:10PM

In my opinion (as a female), I think it's an admirable trait to have, if a little outdated. It's a difficult one because on the one hand, I'd never be rude to somebody who held a door open, took my coat etc. I'd be very grateful and polite. But at the same time, it makes me feel sort of belittled. Like 'ah look at the little lady there, she needs me to make sure she's ok/needs me to give her a hand with the car/needs me to carry that box for her'

Hope I don't get bashed for this opinion as I know it is TGC, but I'm just giving a different side to it

EDIT: On the other hand, I was brought up to have good manners and I appreciate people who have that, be they male or female. So I wouldn't like to see this etiquette disappear. Rather I'd like people to do these things for people, regardless of gender. For example, I have held the door open for both males and females if, for example, they seem like they're in a rush or they're carrying something awkward.

Sauve · 11-01-2012 03:12PM

Don't let the odd wagon put you off holding doors open, most of us LOVE it

Jimmy Iovine · 11-01-2012 03:22PM

I hold the door open for everyone tbh. What really annoys me though is when people and in particular young women don't acknowledge it. It's not hard to open door, but it's equally not hard to say thank you.

Not every woman is ignorant like that but there are a small few alright. If they are looking for manners from people then the least they could do is be mannerly themselves.

/rant over

awec · 11-01-2012 03:25PM

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Seomra Mushie · 11-01-2012 03:26PM

As a female of the species, I find the holding the door thing tends to be unisex, depending on the way the door "goes".

If I'm heading out a door and it opens by pulling towards me, I'll often hold it open for whoever is coming through it, male or female. It just makes sense that way.

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Not every woman is ignorant like that but there are a small few alright. If they are looking for manners from people then the least they could do is be mannerly themselves.

/rant over

How do you ascertain that the stranger you're holding the door for is "looking for manners from people"? Honestly, sometimes I'm a world of my own and might not acknowledge someone holding the door occasionally. It's not intentional. We're all human! I've held doors for people with no acknowledgement but often, they just seem busy and distracted, not necessarily rude.

stupidusername · 11-01-2012 06:24PM

From a female perspective, there's certain things I do appreciate a guy doing. but at the same time most things I'd be fine with him not doing. like it's nice to be offered a jacket if I'm cold, but I will ask if I need it and it's not offered. (plus I don't tend to dress too scantily anymore

)

things like holding a door open (a friend did it for me the other night) and I thought it was really sweet.but i know that particular friend would be like that in a lot of ways anyway.

they're the kind of things that I wouldn't miss a lot if they weren't there, but would find endearing if they were.

foxyboxer · 11-01-2012 06:50PM

What needs to be distinguished here is etiquette between a relationship with a platonic female friend and romantic female friend.

Holding doors open and giving them the 'inside' seat would be appropriate with a platonic friend yet helping them with getting their jackets on and offering your jacket might seem inapproriate or worse a bit....forward.

Standman · 11-01-2012 07:09PM

I find this idea of chivalry really confusing. I mean I've been taught to respect women as equals but at the same time people here are saying that women need to be protected by men on a night out, that they should be given the coat off your back when they are cold, that doors and chairs should be pulled out for them. Is this not a case of women having their cake and eating it too?

jaffacakesyum · 11-01-2012 07:20PM

Standman wrote: »

I find this idea of chivalry really confusing. I mean I've been taught to respect women as equals but at the same time people here are saying that women need to be protected by men on a night out, that they should be given the coat off your back when they are cold, that doors and chairs should be pulled out for them. Is this not a case of women having their cake and eating it too?

This is my problem with chivalry too.

I am a woman. I am (or should be) equal to a man. Therefore, I don't need you to protect me on a night out, or give me your coat when I'm cold or have doors and chairs pulled out for me.

However, good manners are respected from both genders! I guess what I'm saying is everybody should be chivalrous to everybody!

minidazzler · 11-01-2012 08:11PM

foxyboxer wrote: »

What needs to be distinguished here is etiquette between a relationship with a platonic female friend and romantic female friend.

Holding doors open and giving them the 'inside' seat would be appropriate with a platonic friend yet helping them with getting their jackets on and offering your jacket might seem inapproriate or worse a bit....forward.

I think it really depends on A) How good a friend and

If they are colder than me (which they are given I'm rarely cold). Offering a jacket isn't forward when you're outside on a winters night, even for a female friend only I'll throw my arm around to try to keep them warm. I wouldn't do it to a girl I'm friends with that I barely know, but to a friend, no problem. And if they thought it inappropriate, I'd be taken aback TBH.

smallBiscuit · 11-01-2012 08:46PM

Am I chivalrous? I don't know if I am. Holding the door open, I would do for anyone, regardless of sex. chivalry doesn't come in to it. It's just basic manners!

I'd give up my seat on the bus to older people, again regardless of sex (but to a woman before man), again manners, with a bit of chivalry thrown in.

I'd give a woman my coat, but tbh, she'd have to ask, wouldn't occur to me, I'm a bit ditsy like that.

I always say please and thank you.
I don't think I'm chivalrous, just good mannered

Victor Meldrew · 11-01-2012 10:53PM

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

This is my problem with chivalry too.

I am a woman. I am (or should be) equal to a man. Therefore, I don't need you to protect me on a night out, or give me your coat when I'm cold or have doors and chairs pulled out for me.

However, good manners are respected from both genders! I guess what I'm saying is everybody should be chivalrous to everybody!

There is an element of "when is a woman not a woman?" like in work situations. I'll hold doors, but you don't want to do too much or you'll be seen as smarmy / sleazy.

I also used to do scuba diving. Lots of heavy kit, lots of girls in the Diving club. you'd carry a diver's kit if you were going up the slipway from the boat to the cars, but some girls used to play up the little girlie thing to get a skivvy to do the lifting.

This would get very annoying...

Cossax · 12-01-2012 12:23AM

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

I hold the door open for everyone tbh. What really annoys me though is when people and in particular young women don't acknowledge it. It's not hard to open door, but it's equally not hard to say thank you.

Not every woman is ignorant like that but there are a small few alright. If they are looking for manners from people then the least they could do is be mannerly themselves.

/rant over

Get this a lot around uni - women just walk on whereas guys will always, almost without exception, thank you.

later12 · 12-01-2012 01:31AM

minidazzler wrote: »

Hmm, I've always lived by "The lady is always right" for me it's just comfortable to walk with a lady friend on my right.

I've never heard of that. According to Debrett's the tradition is that men walk on the street side of the pavement; it was originally intended to shield women from splashes of mud or dirt, and it just developed into a custom.

It's true that it's generally more comfortable for someone to walk at your right hand, but of course this applies to both parties anyway.

I am generally a pretty good gentleman to women. I quite like the "old etiquette, it works and is generally the right way to go about things, I don't think a new code could really be "developed" it's more of an evolutionary thing that changes as time goes by.

I appreciate the nicety of male etiquette, but it's just not what being a man is about,nor does it realistically help to define a gentleman.

In the 21st century, I find it a little absurd that we are still rating gentlemen on the emptiest and most symbolic of gestures (standing up from the table, holding open a doorway and allowing a woman through first, etc). Any cad can do these things, it takes minimal effort, and quite frankly is only very minimally indicative of gentlemanly repute.

Tesco Massacre · 12-01-2012 04:28AM

I still do that old thing of using my jacket to cover a puddle if a fair maiden is passing by. Sometimes I'll do it even if she isn't that fair.

I'm that kind of guy.

The Corinthian · 12-01-2012 10:02AM

I suggest people pick up a copy of Modern Manners, by P. J. O'Rourke, which humorously covers these changing dynamics.

In it he asks the interesting question; "how much fame, money and power does a woman have to achieve on her own before you can punch her in the face?"

Pawwed Rig · 12-01-2012 10:27AM

I was in Thailand a couple of years ago on a train where all the seats were full and it was fairly packed. An older lady got on and stood a bit aways from me. I was surprised when noone offered her their seat. So I stood up and gesticulated to her to sit herself down and the look of appreciation she gave me gave me made my day. The dirty look she gave all the local lads was priceless.

As far as holding a door open I would do that for anybody, not just a woman but I would expect some acknowledgement. It annoys me when they just breeze through and tbh men are more likely to say thank you than a woman.

I definitely don't do the man always pays for the lady and it was a deal breaker when i was dating if the girl didn't at least attempt to put her hand in her purse. Like I would generally pay for the first date out of politeness but if I thought the girl expected it she would go into the selfish column and not be contacted again.

minidazzler · 12-01-2012 10:39AM

later10 wrote: »

I've never heard of that. According to Debrett's the tradition is that men walk on the street side of the pavement; it was originally intended to shield women from splashes of mud or dirt, and it just developed into a custom.

I learned it from Irish dancing in the Gaeltacht, it was drilled into us by the muinteoiri. And works well for me.

And RE things not being representative of gentlemanly behavior because anyone can do it, that's the point, anyone can, but it's those that do that distinguish themselves, I think.

TouchingVirus · 12-01-2012 10:48AM

I'll hold a door open for anybody, doesn't have to be a woman. A smile, nod or a simple thanks is more than enough satisfaction but I'm not going to hold it against the person if they're in a rush and don't acknowledge; it makes me feel the same either way - it's just a nice act of courtesy. Similarly for assisting somebody with a pram/heavy suitcase or whatever, man or woman I don't care; if they need help then I'll provide it if I can. I'll readily give up my seat on a bus for older people/somebody with a disability, but if it's a 20-something who's on the phone to her other half or whatever then I wouldn't bother.

Most of the other things mentioned I would apply only in formal or date situations - walking kerbside, sitting down after the ladies have sat, pulling out their chairs, taking their jackets etc. I don't stand up when a woman is leaving the table though, that one just seems very odd and very antiquated to me.

Back in the day this was how women expected to be treated. Nowadays there's always the chance you'll get somebody with a real "I can manage myself" attitude, as if you're undermining their equal status is society or as a human at which point you just have to let go of the etiquette and let them at it, lest you offend them. Even so I still try to apply it and only stop when they tell me to, for some girls it's quite the surprise.

Jimmy Iovine · 12-01-2012 04:42PM

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Most of the other things mentioned I would apply only in formal or date situations - walking kerbside, sitting down after the ladies have sat, pulling out their chairs, taking their jackets etc. I don't stand up when a woman is leaving the table though, that one just seems very odd and very antiquated to me.

It reminds me of Boardwalk Empire. I'd say it's get very annoying if you had to do that the whole time. You'd never get to finish your dinner at all if you were out at a restaurant :pac:.

awec · 12-01-2012 04:45PM

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The Modern Gentleman's Etiquette

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