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Adding a stove with back boiler to existing oil system

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  • 22-12-2011 9:37pm
    #1
    studdlymurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭


    Hi,
    I currently have an oil heating system which is fine. I also have an openfire which is used pretty regular. I want to put a stove with boiler into the existing fireplace. I know how to put the stove in place and all that but dont know how to plumb it to th eexisting system. From thinking about it I have put a very simple schematic together of what I was planning but want to know if I am correct in my plans.
    The system is open/ not pressured.
    There is also a hot water tank as you would expect.
    I suppose what I really want to know is will the two supplies work together or is there anything else I need to add to make it work. There are more rad but there was no real point drawing them.
    Thanks for the help


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    #2
    demanufactured
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    Nope
    Youll need to replace your cylender with a dual coil one and you need to supply a gravity feed for the.stove


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    #3
    studdlymurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭studdlymurphy


    Would the added stove not just heat the same circuit as the existing oil boiler and therfore use the same heating coil in the cylinder?


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    #4
    demanufactured
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    Nope


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    #5
    studdlymurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭studdlymurphy


    Explanation?


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    #6
    Nonmonotonic
    Registered Users Posts: 422 ✭✭Nonmonotonic


    What happens if there is a power failure when your stove is going full blast?


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    #7
    studdlymurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭studdlymurphy


    The same thing that happens any stove in a power failure I would suspect whay would my case be any different?


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    #8
    heinbloed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    The OP's drawing is basic, but the system's set-up is o.k..
    Keep asking studdlymurphy.
    Get a heating engineer in, your set-up needs some fine tuning/detailing like emergency blow-off valves, maybe some non-return valves and a sacrifying anode as well. But in principle it seems all right.

    If the CHs thermal supply is not to be used paralel - both boilers together - then a T-junction (left at the pump shown at the drawing) might not be adviseable. It would be easier to run the boilers in one line.
    But ask a heating engineer for a complete detailing.
    Q.:

    What happens if there is a power failure when your stove is going full blast?

    A.:

    The same thing that happens any stove in a power failure I would suspect whay would my case be any different?

    That's correct.


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    #9
    DoneDL
    Closed Accounts Posts: 902 ✭✭✭DoneDL


    demanufactured wrote: »
    Nope

    Good advice.


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    #10
    studdlymurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭studdlymurphy


    Thanks Heinbloed,
    Would you suggest having the two boilers running in series instead of in parallel? with a blowoff valve at the cylinder? Where would the sacrificial anode go I never heard of one of those in a domestic setup.
    Thanks again


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    #11
    heinbloed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    @Studdlymurphy:

    I'm an amateur, not a heating engineer. So double check my 'advises'.
    1.
    Would you suggest having the two boilers running in series instead of in parallel?

    This depends on the the thermal demand. If the demand is always higher than the possible maximum output of both boilers (together!) then there is no problem running in series or paralel.
    But this is propably not the envisaged design, usually either the one or the other thermal source/boiler would cover the entire demand.
    With a modulating boiler being part of the CH heating system this again is a different issue: the modulating boiler would reduce it's output the more the 'stove-boiler' supplies. And eventually will switch off alltogether leaving the thermal supply to the 'stove-boiler'.
    A correct setting of the modulating boiler's output (minimum and maximum flow and return temperature) can be done very easily with the modern types.

    2.
    .... with a blowoff valve at the cylinder?

    The blow-off valve should be positioned at the point of highest temperature, usually at the boiler itself. All boilers legally sold in the EU do either have a blow-off valve build-in or demand the installer to include one. The blow-off valve is the ultima ratio, the last resort in terms of safety.

    3.
    Where would the sacrificial anode go I never heard of one of those in a domestic setup.

    It could go anywhere in the flow system, if a cylinder (thermal storage tank) is included then there. Standard cylinders have them included.


    Again: a heating engineer or a capeable plumber would be the right person to ask. Ask for a demand calculation according to EN12831, your existing boiler and radiators might be over-dimensioned and the money be better spend on a new boiler or better controls. Or a simple overhaul/optimisation of the existing CH system,an optimisation of fuel efficiency means monetarian efficiency.


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    #12
    DoneDL
    Closed Accounts Posts: 902 ✭✭✭DoneDL


    Again: a heating engineer or a capeable capable plumber would be the right person to ask.

    They did, we replied "Nope".

    I'm an amateur, not a heating engineer. So double check my 'advises'.
     advice.

    We did, we replied "Nope".


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    #13
    Nonmonotonic
    Registered Users Posts: 422 ✭✭Nonmonotonic


    Was the question the OP asked on spelling?
    "Nope"

    My question related to the planning of protection for the solid fuel part of the plan (venting and/or blow off arrangements). This may be of assistance.


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    #14
    heinbloed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    Thanks for the link, Nonmonotonic.
    Since this link describes only a few of the possibilities which could be chosen by the competent plumber ..... is there more detailed information available?

    I know it that it takes always a case-to-case aproach (since every heating system is an individual system) would there be some ' life-and-comissioned-by-a-professional ' heating systems, solid fuel in combination with secondary/other boilers?

    http://www.multi-fuelstoves.eu/link_up%20S%20F%20A.pdf seems to be doing a first educational step in the www. Is there a head, a mastermind ?

    I wonder because most boards.ie plumbers do not seem to be aware of basic set-ups, like that the Irish CH system as installed is already based on a twin-source thermal supply, pumped CH-boiler plus the categorically included electric resistance.

    A link to a competent source of knowledge (webbased or in real) might be an eyeopener.

    Thanks again.


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    #15
    needthespace
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭needthespace


    Hi, I have a solid fuel stove and also an oil fed boiler. The stove works on gravity to heat the hot water cylinder (its a single coil cylinder) and then the pump takes over to heat the 8 double rads. An electrician wired up the boiler so that a valve cuts off the boiler water feed when the stove is burning over a certain temperature, that way I'm not heating water in the boiler.
    I find the best way to heat the house is to turn on the boiler until the rads are fairly hot and at the same time light the stove. I can then turn off the boiler and the stove takes over.
    This works out fairly economical because the last fill of oil was over 3 years ago.
    I hope this is of help to you.


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    #16
    studdlymurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭studdlymurphy


    needthespace wrote: »
    Hi, I have a solid fuel stove and also an oil fed boiler. The stove works on gravity to heat the hot water cylinder (its a single coil cylinder) and then the pump takes over to heat the 8 double rads. An electrician wired up the boiler so that a valve cuts off the boiler water feed when the stove is burning over a certain temperature, that way I'm not heating water in the boiler.
    I find the best way to heat the house is to turn on the boiler until the rads are fairly hot and at the same time light the stove. I can then turn off the boiler and the stove takes over.
    This works out fairly economical because the last fill of oil was over 3 years ago.
    I hope this is of help to you.

    Cheers, do you know what way the two sources of heat are plumbed with eachother or what other features you have to help the system work smoothly


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    #17
    needthespace
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭needthespace


    studdlymurphy wrote: »
    Cheers, do you know what way the two sources of heat are plumbed with eachother or what other features you have to help the system work smoothly

    Hi Studdlymurphy,
    I just plumbed the two systems together, the one pump circulates the water in both. I also put a pressure valve on hot pipe out of stove, and an air vent on both the ch pipes and the cylinder.
    As an afterthought I put louvre doors on the hotpress and fixed a rail for hanging clothes. I never have to iron my shirts if I hang them straight from washing machine, dead handy!!:D:D


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    #18
    studdlymurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭studdlymurphy


    needthespace wrote: »
    Hi Studdlymurphy,
    I just plumbed the two systems together, the one pump circulates the water in both. I also put a pressure valve on hot pipe out of stove, and an air vent on both the ch pipes and the cylinder.
    As an afterthought I put louvre doors on the hotpress and fixed a rail for hanging clothes. I never have to iron my shirts if I hang them straight from washing machine, dead handy!!:D:D

    Is there any problems with running the stove with the oil off as the hot water is then pumped through the oil boiler and it not running?


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    #19
    needthespace
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭needthespace


    studdlymurphy wrote: »
    Is there any problems with running the stove with the oil off as the hot water is then pumped through the oil boiler and it not running?

    Hi again,
    No there is no problem running the stove with the oil boiler off because there is a valve fitted to the water pipe (just beside the boiler) running from the stove to the boiler. This is wired to shut off the water when the boiler is turned off.

    On the other hand if I'm away from home and set the boiler to come on at certain times it will heat the water in the stove as well as rads. I think I could have fitted another valve to shut off this supply but decided against it seeing as the stove is obviously inside but the boiler is outside.

    Feel free to ask any more questions:)


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    #20
    lar203
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭lar203


    i have a sealed system {oil ] i allso have a 9kw stove standing alone .i have had two plumbers look at the system and they have both told me the same thing,run copper pipes up wall to attic ,put small tank up there then run coplex to tank {which is a three one } the pipes under the floor were put in when i built the house . can't understand the price of 1000euros so its not getting done


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    #21
    needthespace
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭needthespace


    lar203 wrote: »
    i have a sealed system {oil ] i allso have a 9kw stove standing alone .i have had two plumbers look at the system and they have both told me the same thing,run copper pipes up wall to attic ,put small tank up there then run coplex to tank {which is a three one } the pipes under the floor were put in when i built the house. can't understand the price of 1000euros so its not getting done

    Hi Lar203,

    I know nothing about sealed systems and not a whole lot about plumbing either if truth be told!!
    Having said that, I read up on plumbing systems in library books etc and installed the oil boiler, stove, rads and piping myself and made lots of mistakes too but learned as I went along. I just got the electrician to wire the boiler. It cost me very little overall and gave me a great sense of achievement when all done! If I can do it anybody can:).


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