How were pilots selected in WW2?

silverharp · 29-11-2011 2:55pm #1

In particular fighter versus bomber?ie did they all do the same basic training and the best became fighter etc? any differences between say Allies and German?

ejmaztec · 29-11-2011 6:29pm

I think that most would have wanted to become fighter pilots (for the glory), but aircrew selection officers would have decided on their suitability through aptitude tests etc., and then steered them in the appropriate direction.

They all trained in the same aircraft, and then went on to train in types specific to what their flying duties would be.

ejmaztec · 29-11-2011 6:58pm

Flight simulators have come a long way since this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_simulator

I had a go in one once, and managed to break it.:(

Morlar · 29-11-2011 7:36pm

Here are some I have of a LW Turret Gunner training exercise :

http://www.militaria-archive.com/rad/index_6.html

From about here onwards :

http://www.militaria-archive.com/rad/content/Foto276_large.html

Cardinal Richelieu · 30-11-2011 1:32am

Detail summary of RAF training

WW2talk.com

The British Commonwealth Air Training Plan 1939-45

At the start of the Second World War, the British Government looked to the Dominions for air training help because the United Kingdom did not have the space to accommodate training and operational facilities, and because aerodromes in the United Kingdom were vulnerable to enemy attack
Between 1940 and 1945, some 151 schools had been established across Canada with a ground organization of 104,113 men and women.

By the end of the Second World War, the BCATP had produced 131,553 aircrew, including pilots, wireless operators, air gunners, and navigators for the Air Forces of Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada.

Nationality of BCATP Graduates (1940-1945)

Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) 72 835
Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) 9 606
Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) 7 002
Royal Air Force (RAF), which included 42 110
448 Poles
677 Norwegians
800 Belgian and Dutch
900 Czechs
2 600 Free French
Naval Fleet Air Arm also trained at BCATP schools 5 296

[FONT=&quot]Elementary training took approximately eight weeks, which included at least 50 hours of flying. Aircraft commonly used at Elementary Flying Training Schools were de Havilland Tiger Moths, Fleet Finches, and Fairchild Cornells.

Successful trainees then progressed to Service Flying Training Schools for more advanced instruction. Because syllabus revisions were made throughout the war, the course length varied from [/FONT][FONT=&quot]10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to 16 weeks, and flying time varied from 75 to 100 hours. Potential fighter pilots trained on single-engine North American Harvards while pilots selected for bomber, coastal, and transport operations received training on twin-engine Avro Ansons, Cessna Cranes, or Airspeed Oxfords. (It seems that the choice of plane was made at this stage - I've just read on another site the choice was made based on flying ability, the instructor's recommendations, psychological tests, and the relative demands for particular types at any one time of the war. It seems from the various BBC People's War stories, that the potential pilot didn't actually have the greatest say on what he flew)

After five weeks of theoretical training at Initial Training Schools, air observers would move to Air Observer Schools for a 12-week course on aerial photography, reconnaissance, and air navigation. This also included 60 to 70 hours of practical experience in the air. Observers learned the science of bombing during their 10-week stay at a Bombing and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Gunnery[/FONT][FONT=&quot]School[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. With an additional four weeks at an [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Air[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Navigation[/FONT][FONT=&quot]School[/FONT][FONT=&quot], recruits were then ready for posting overseas. After June 1942, the duties of the air observer were divided between navigators and air bombers, thus replacing the observer category.

Navigators specializing in bombing spent eight weeks at a Bombing and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Gunnery[/FONT][FONT=&quot]School[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and 12 weeks at an [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Air[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Observer[/FONT][FONT=&quot]School[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. These men were then qualified as both navigators and bomb aimers. Navigators specializing as wireless operators trained for 28 weeks at a [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Wireless[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Training School[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and 22 weeks at an [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Air[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Observer[/FONT][FONT=&quot]School[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Airmen studying to be air bombers spent five weeks at an [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Initial[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Training School[/FONT][FONT=&quot], 8 to 12 weeks at a Bombing and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Gunnery[/FONT][FONT=&quot]School[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and six weeks at an [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Air[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Observer[/FONT][FONT=&quot]School[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Besides learning how to drop bombs accurately, air bombers learned the map-reading and observations skills necessary for assisting navigators.

Wireless operator*air gunners spent 28 weeks at a [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Wireless[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Training School[/FONT][FONT=&quot] where they became proficient in radio work. Gunnery training took six weeks at a Bombing and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Gunnery[/FONT][FONT=&quot]School[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Straight air gunners, also taught at Bombing and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Gunnery[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Schools[/FONT][FONT=&quot], underwent a 12-week [/FONT][FONT=&quot]program involving ground training and actual air firing practice. Later in the war, a flight engineer was added to heavy bomber crews. Besides being an aero-engine technician, flight engineers received enough training to be able to replace a pilot who was killed or injured. Most engineers were trained in the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]United Kingdom[/FONT][FONT=&quot], but about 1,900 engineers eventually graduated from the Flight Engineers School in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Aylmer[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ontario[/FONT][FONT=&quot], once it opened in July 1944[/FONT]

Stovepipe · 30-11-2011 1:52am

Hi there
I read lately that a cadet in the RAF or other Allied air forces would be washed out if he destroyed a training aircraft or it's equivalent, ie, dinged a few props or made a couple of forced landings or if he showed no aptitude with theoretical subjects. The situation at the Front tended to determine what kind of pilots they needed, ie, large bomber or transport losses dictated more multi-engine rated pilots needed than single-engine pilots. Also, because the Allies had leave rotations built into their operational system, they needed a lot of aircrew just to cover crew rotations and postings to instructional units. Axis aircrew tended to be on the job until they were killed or wounded or stood down for rest. By 1944, the system had generated more than enough Allied aircrew and many cadets were remustered as infantry to cope with manpower losses.

Apart from that, one common theme among all the air forces was the cadets' school scores, especially maths and science subjects. The US also required two years of college for aviation cadets and they also gave the highest amount of flight hours to cadets, which is why typical USAAC/USN cadets often had 250 hours flight time chalked up before reaching combat, whereas German cadets were eventually down to about 60 hours of basic training with a very few hours in fighters before they were posted to a unit.

regards
Stovepipe

xflyer · 04-12-2011 12:09pm

Yes intelligence and school performance was a key factor in selection for aircrew and pilots. The fact is that the more intelligent you were the less likely you were to end up as a rifleman on the front line. Essentially the stupidest men ended up in combat. If you showed any modicum of talent or skill they either made you an officer or gave you a cushy job behind the lines. Darwinism in action.

From my reading of several bios of various RAF and US pilots. Quite often the the separation of fighter versus bomber or other pilots would be obvious early on to the Instructors. Steady types, good team players would be streamed into multi engine types. But the outgoing individualists would end up in fighters. But of course it was never that simple.

BlaasForRafa · 04-12-2011 8:44pm

A lot of germany's recruits came from pre-war gliders clubs, because of the Versailles treaty restrictions these were huge in germany and were run for children as well as adults. The nascent luftwaffe also used them for recruiting pilots.

Luftwaffe trainees who exhibited good mathematical skills were split off into multi-seat aircraft like bombers and transport as pilots and navigators due to the use of instrument flying on these machines.

In the early years of the war luftwaffe pilots got extensive training, in some cases having 2 years in training before being accepted into frontline units. By 1944 this had changing, mainly due to fuel shortages and some pilots were being accepted onto some of the most advanced aircraft available with only 10 hours on type. This inevitably led to large losses.

The Jadgwaffe's philosophy, unlike the RAF and USAAF, they had a cadre of aces with large scores who fought till they died, were badly wounded or went to a staff position. The ace in a schwarm (four aircraft in 2 pairs) would be the sword and the other 3 pilots would be the shield and would protect the sword and be his eyes. In 1944-45 the Jagdwaffe could barely muster 400 aircraft on the Eastern Front but was still able to hold off the Soviets and achieve local air superiority in places. To quote Christer Bergstrom in Jagdwaffe Vol 5 section 2

Contrary to the commonly-held opinion that the Luftwaffe was ground to a more or less helpless state, the luftwaffe's significance on the Eastern Front actually increased. A large proportion of Soviet aircraft losses during 1944-45 were attributable to a small but immensely experienced core of Jagdwaffe Experten. This group of perhaps a few dozen fighter pilots was in fact crucial during the war on the Eastern Front, their critical importance actually peaked at the end of the war.

xflyer · 05-12-2011 12:25am

The ace in a schwarm (four aircraft in 2 pairs) would be the sword and the other 3 pilots would be the shield and would protect the sword and be his eyes.

Interestingly that continues online. In Aces High the online WW2 air combat game. One of the top scorers operates exactly like that. He managed mega scores but he never left the virtual ground without a lot of protection. Interestingly he played mostly Luftwaffe.

Stovepipe · 05-12-2011 2:26am

Bear in mind also that Britain had a huge manpower pool to choose from, a large heavy bomber fleet to conduct the strategic war with and twenty years inter-wars operational experience. It also had a long established source of technicians and safe remote-from-the-combat training areas.
Galland is also on record in stating that one of his big mistakes was not training enough blind-flying qualified pilots. Germany's prewar experience of operational testing in Spain was diluted to almost nothing by mid-war.
Interestingly, the sword and shield system was complained about by the Afrika Corps, who complained that the Luftwaffe aces were not knocking down enough British bombers, especially those destroying their shipping, as they ran up high scores against the fighter opposition.

regards
Stovepipe

ejmaztec · 05-12-2011 3:44pm

This has always intrigued me, where the Russians allowed the Germans to breach the Versailles Treaty, by allowing them full use of an airbase in Russia for pilot training and aircraft testing, until the Germans pulled out in 1933. It seems the Germans also tested weapons and other equipment on Russian soil.

http://www.airpages.ru/eng/ru/lipetsk.shtml

Here's some of the web-page:

The first step to founding a secret German flying school in the USSR was taken back in Lenin's time, in 1920, when the German leaders turned to Soviet Russia's government with a proposal to establish German military training courses on its territory. The Politburo considered this proposal and approved it on the whole, but, in order to keep the matter confidential, they decided to organize the training of German military specialists in small provincial towns rather than in Moscow. The Bolsheviks were eager to imitate German war experience and become acquainted with modern military equipment, including aircraft. In addition, the Soviet leadership counted on the Reichswehr's help in attracting the German industrialists to restoring Russia's war potential and tried to maintain good relations with the Reichswehr.
Soon after the Rapallo Treaty was signed on 11 August 1922 the Red Army and Reichswehr concluded a secret agreement on cooperation. Germany was allowed to set up facilities in Russia for testing military equipment banned by the Versailles Treaty and for training military personnel. In turn, the German leadership promised to contribute to exporting German technological expertise to Russia in order to develop its defense industry. Besides that, the Soviet side received the right to participate in testing the German military equipment, including the latest aircraft, tanks, and chemical weapons.
In late 1923, a Special Moscow Group (Sondergruppe Moskau), also called Moscow Center (Zentrale Moskau) attached to the German Special Group R, was set up. Herman von der Lieth-Thomsen, former German Air Force Chief of Staff, headed it. Ritter von Niedermayer, a former intelligence officer in the Middle East, was his deputy. Captain Ratt, Lieth-Thomsen's adjutant, was responsible for aviation matters.
Pilots were trained in Germany at the Civil Aviation Pilot Training Center (Deutsche Verkehrsflieger-Schule) and in sports flying clubs. However, due to the ban on military aviation in Germany, it was carried out in light training airplanes, or Junkers passenger planes. So, it was impossible to train full-fledged military pilots and observers. That was why the idea of establishing a secret flying school abroad, where the German pilots could polish their skills in the newest combat machines, emerged.
A so-called Aviation Inspection, or Inspection No. 1 responsible for training pilots for the Reichswehr, directed the school's establishment. The first practical steps were taken in 1923, when the German War Ministry, through the mediation of major German industrialist H. Stinness, bought 50 single-seat Fokker D XIII fighters from the Fokker firm in Holland for the future school. In 1923-1925, a few Fokker D VII and Fokker D XI airplanes were acquired from the same source. The order supposedly was being fulfilled for the Argentine Air Force.
In 1924, the first group of German military aviation experts came to the USSR- M.Fiebig (he became a Luftwaffe general officer during WWII), K. Lite, G. Johanenson, R. Hasenor, and J. Schroeder. A few more persons joined them later on. For some time they worked on a contract basis as consultants with the RKKA Air Forces Directorate and the Air Force Academy in Moscow, then part of the group became staff members at the German flying school's in the USSR.
The Soviet government had chosen an airfield in the northwestern outskirts of Lipetsk, where a RKKA Air Forces unit was based, as the site where the German airmen would be trained.
The Germans appointed Major Walter Schtaar, who during the First World War was a fighter detachment commander on the Western Front, to head the Lipetsk Flying School. He held this job for 5 years despite rather unflattering references about him by the UGPU ("...a follower of Hindenburg, a Nazi of stern temper, demanding, and merciless. He is extremely hostile towards Soviet power and cannot tolerate Russians"). Such untypical tolerance on the part of the Bolsheviks towards such an attitude could only be explained by their acute interest in military cooperation with the Reichswehr at that time

Tony EH · 12-12-2011 6:23pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The ace in a schwarm (four aircraft in 2 pairs) would be the sword and the other 3 pilots would be the shield and would protect the sword and be his eyes.

That's not quite the case.

The standard smallest formation was the rotte. Two Rotte would make a Schwarm. The leader of each rotte was a rotten fuhrer (the most experienced pilot in the rotte), his wingman was his "kaczmarek". Often, schwarm were made up entirely of aces. With regular wing leaders and wingmen flying together in many sorties. In combat, the schwarm would split into 2 rotte, with the leader doing the hunting and his wingman covering him. When combat was broken, the schwarm would rejoin and head home.

All pilots in the schwarm would be the "eyes" when on patrol, each responsible for their own area of sky. The two rotten fuhrer would be the foremost aircraft. If one holds out the right hand, say, the middle finger and ring finger would be the formation leaders, with the index finger and the little finger being their respective wingmen.

Werner Molders was instrumental in the development of the discipline and it was so successful that it was copied (as the finger four formation) by the US. It was also later adopted by the RAF, who eventually realised that their "Vic of 3" formation was woefully inadequate as a fighting unit, as the pilots spent more time worrying about their flying than scanning the sky. The looser Schwarm allowed the German pilots to watch the sky and not worry so much about bashing off of each other.

Stovepipe · 12-12-2011 6:47pm

Hi there
The "vic" of three seems to have been a formation beloved of many air forces, especially the Russians and Japanese. Even the RAF, who eventually adopted the finger four, were reluctant, in some cases, to get rid of it. One of the big-name RAF aces told how he encountered a unit resting up North from the Battle of Britain, who were still drilling new pilots in the vic, as well as the "Fighting Area Attacks" well into 1940. I think it was Bader himself who described using "No 1 attacks" on single bombers, to blood new pilots. It wasn't only the RAF, though. Neville Duke described how he encountered an Italian in a Macchi who performed first-class airshow standard loops and rolls, which Duke was easily able to follow and shoot down the startled Italian, who promptly baled out to be captured at once.

Instilling a proper combat attitude into pilots seems to have been the hardest thing of all.

regards
Stovepipe

Tony EH · 12-12-2011 7:03pm

The VVS used the Vic until 1943 when they too succumbed to the realisation that the Germans were "doing it better". I'm not too sure if it was beloved, moreso than it just simply being SOP. Various units had adopted the four aircraft formation before that though.

Bader abandoned it in 1940 when it was obvious that pilots under his command were being outflown by their German counterparts. It was fine for attacking bombers, but useless when dealing with 109's.

Stovepipe · 12-12-2011 7:46pm

Hi all
The RAF learned the hard way, as they found that the "Tail-end Charlie" was often chopped by diving 109s without the rest of the formation realising it. The vic also was less than successful for bombers because it didn't allow gunners to cover their safe firing arcs without endangering adjoining aircraft. It's a pity that learning lessons costed lives.
We forgot to mention that German pilots could be of a basic rank like Unteroffizier / Corporal, unlike Allied forces whose minimum flight rank for pilots was Sergeant. RAF Aircrew could be as lowly ranked as AC/2, which was not much higher than plankton in the RAF.

regards
Stovepipe

Delancey · 29-12-2011 4:22am

I've been doing some research on a relative who served in the USAAF in WW2 and went MIA.
He was my first cousin ( once removed ) and was a gunner on a B17 , I found his enlistment records and they showed he had only 3 years High School , which to my mind explained why he was a Staff Sergeant and not an officer given the requirement for commissioned ranks to have at least some 3rd level education.
However , I also came across the records for the navigator on his aircraft who was a Lieutenant as was the norm for USAAF bombers whereby the Navigator , Bombardier and the 2 pilots were all officers.
This Lt. also only had 3 years high school - go figure !

ejmaztec · 31-12-2011 5:39pm

Delancey wrote: »

I've been doing some research on a relative who served in the USAAF in WW2 and went MIA.
He was my first cousin ( once removed ) and was a gunner on a B17 , I found his enlistment records and they showed he had only 3 years High School , which to my mind explained why he was a Staff Sergeant and not an officer given the requirement for commissioned ranks to have at least some 3rd level education.
However , I also came across the records for the navigator on his aircraft who was a Lieutenant as was the norm for USAAF bombers whereby the Navigator , Bombardier and the 2 pilots were all officers.
This Lt. also only had 3 years high school - go figure !

His high school was probably on the right side of town.

Delancey · 02-01-2012 1:35am

ejmaztec wrote: »

His high school was probably on the right side of town.

You may well be right , the Navigator had a very Jewish sounding name and had been a Furriers Apprentice prior to joining so he almost certainly was indeed Jewish and perhaps attended a school outside the Public School system ?
My Cousin would have been from very much a ' blue collar ' background and had worked as a waiter prior to enlistment.
Both were from New York.

How were pilots selected in WW2?

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