When is the ball out of a ruck?

Tim Robbins · 14-11-2011 9:43pm #1

This is a survey open to all players, fans, refs.
You're at a ruck, playing for a team without the ball. You came through the gate, one of your arms is free and you see the scrum half in front of you.

When can you go for the scrum half?

Players, I want you to be honest here :-) Fans or anyone who doesn't play answer it as if you were.

PS
I am not giving my answer here as I am interested in hearing your opinions first. I have a very consistent rule of thumb that I explain when asked. But where I am coming from is that players are not thinking or this law is not being reffed consistently.

CatFromHue · 14-11-2011 9:46pm

If you came through the gate, as opposed to over the top of it, are you not entitled to go for the ball and/or scrum half. I'm assuming in the theoretical situation I'm standing.

Podge_irl · 14-11-2011 9:48pm

I leave it at least a second after the number 9 takes it out just to ensure I don't get penalised?

When the ball goes behind the last foot?

This is probably wrong...

Tim Robbins · 14-11-2011 9:53pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

If you came through the gate, as opposed to over the top of it, are you not entitled to go for the ball and/or scrum half. I'm assuming in the theoretical situation I'm standing.

Doesn't really answer the question I was trying to ask.

The ball is in the ruck. Scrum half of other team is about to take it out. You have to make a decision what to do and when. We're down to split second timing here.At what stage can you do what?

LightningBolt · 14-11-2011 9:58pm

I leave it at least a second after the number 9 takes it out just to ensure I don't get penalised?

It's a bit of an awkward one to be honest and really depends on the type of ruck it is. When the scrum half has his hands on the ball at the hindfoot and his shoulders come up I go straight through him.

My logic is as follows: if his shoulders are facing down towards the ball and he has hands on he's digging the ball out, if he has hands on and his shoulders come up he's looking to play the ball.

I've gotten pinged the odd time for it, if the ref is pretty poor reffing the rucks I'll cheat as much as possible.

Risteard · 14-11-2011 10:03pm

I do something else?Please state

Not too sure about the question. If it's a ruck, I will try and counter ruck through the middle, I generally don't touch the scrum half just try and hook the ball back with my feet.

If you mean that the ball is clearly lost and just waiting for the the scrum half to pass I'll wait til he has his hands on the ball and looks as if he's going to pass.

For example he might have his hands on the ball trying to fish it out of the ruck, I know that if I go then I'll probably be penalised.

GerM · 14-11-2011 10:09pm

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

For it to be a ruck, the ball has to be on the ground. For it to be in the ruck it has to be ahead of the hindmost foot. So, for me, it's over or I can go for it when the ball either comes out beyond the hindmost foot or when the scrumhalf picks it off the ground.

danthefan · 14-11-2011 10:11pm

Whenever the ref says so.

irishbucsfan · 14-11-2011 10:11pm

I never go for the no. 9 because it's too difficult to predict if I am going to get penalised?

Generally I just stick my feet on it and give it a general welly in any direction.

Pulling the scrum half in is a penalisable offence and referees simply do not referee to the letter of the laws re: the ball being out when the scrum half has his hands on, so there is no point playing him unless he is particularly slow at getting away.

There is a common misconception that if you come through the ruck and are on your feet you are always legal to play the ball with your hands, which is obviously not true (and by common I mean amongst watching public as opposed to players).

I do wish the rule was correctly applied to scrum halves re: the ball being out as soon as they have their hands on. I think that the offside rule protects them too much and even makes it easy for them and harder on the opposition pack.

For me the answer is always dependent on individual referees though. They're all different and they all apply the rules differently. I think that kind of adaptability is a very important skill to have.

.ak · 14-11-2011 11:48pm

As the number 9 starts taking the ball out I got for him?

The rules say that the 9/first receiver to the ruck is open to a defender as soon as they touch the ball.

It's also interesting to point out that 'dummying' the ball on the ground is illegal. You're not allowed to 'pretend' to pick up the ball as it'll cause confusion because if you touch the ball you're open and it's no longer a ruck.

Eoin · 15-11-2011 12:24am

I leave it at least a second after the number 9 takes it out just to ensure I don't get penalised?

.ak wrote:

The rules say that the 9/first receiver to the ruck is open to a defender as soon as they touch the ball.

I've heard a few refs saying that it's when the scrum half has control of it - i.e. you can't play it when the 9 is in the process of digging it out, rather than about to pass. That might not be correct, but that's probably the most common explanation I've been given.

I picked the "When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?" option, but now I look at it, there's a few different options I could have chosen.

Peter B · 15-11-2011 12:31am

Back in my playing days I always drew an imaginary line between the players legs / bodies at the back of the ruck. If the ball was more than half way outside that line I would consider it out.

I have no idea what the official rule is though.

Ste_D · 15-11-2011 12:37am

As the number 9 starts taking the ball out I got for him?

I asked a ref last season and he said that when the scrum half touches the ball he's fair game. Then the next week I was penalised for going for the 9 as soon as he had hands on. So there seems to be a lot of confusion here, even with refs!!

Oisinjm · 15-11-2011 12:58am

I've always used the rule that I can go for the scrum-half if he has his hands on the ball and he's not resting against a player in the ruck if that makes sense? Never been penalised using this mantra anyway. He's not in the motion of passing the ball yet as he's up against the ruck but preparing to do so, the second he begins his pull back for the pass I see him as fair game really.

Danger_dave1 · 15-11-2011 1:43am

I watch TG4.

It fully depends on the referees definition . I always get a clarification from the ref before the start of the game. Whether its if the scrumhalf has picked it up off the ground, or if hes in the motion of moving it out of the ruck.

Realistically the best thing to do at the social level is just to wait for him to pass are pick and go and trust your defense to be aligned. If you keep making the tackles after 4 to 5 phases the attacking team generally makes mistakes.

No need to give away silly penalties.

EKClarke · 15-11-2011 7:46am

I never go for the no. 9 because it's too difficult to predict if I am going to get penalised?

It depends on the ref. I usually cheat, and what's more I usually get away with it.;)

Usually I think it's fair game if the ball is 'out' at the back of the ruck, around the hindmost foot, and the SH touches it. But then again I'm usually off my feet Richie McCaw style. You just have to be cute about it and you can get away with murder, particularly if it's a poor enough ref.

Steve Perchance · 15-11-2011 10:37am

I leave it at least a second after the number 9 takes it out just to ensure I don't get penalised?

I always understood it to be once the ball is behind the hindmost foot or when the scrumhalf has picked it up. That's why the pass off the ground is a key scrumhalf skill - if you don't pick it up, you can put your hands on it and sweep it away - safer ball. Once the ball's up you're fair game.

I think sometimes people confuse the ruck and scrum rules - its at a scrum that hands on = out

pickarooney · 15-11-2011 12:12pm

As the number 9 starts taking the ball out I got for him?

Technically, once he has one hand on the ball but realistically a moment beforehand in anticipation. Penalties can't be kicked from outside the 22 for some strange reason in the rugby I play so getting penalised for going early is not a big deal.

WeeBushy · 15-11-2011 12:12pm

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

I'll play the ref's interpretation (well I'll try anyway!), but my default position would be to wait until the scrum half starts to take the ball out. That is if the ball is lost of course, if we can still compete for it I'll go through the middle boots flailing for the ball, in a controlled manner of course.

WeeBushy · 15-11-2011 12:13pm

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

pickarooney wrote: »

Technically, once he has one hand on the ball but realistically a moment beforehand in anticipation. Penalties can't be kicked from outside the 22 for some strange reason in the rugby I play so getting penalised for going early is not a big deal.

What rugby do you play, do you mind me asking? Odd rule. I'd be giving away penalties all day if they couldn't kick.

pickarooney · 15-11-2011 12:19pm

As the number 9 starts taking the ball out I got for him?

WeeBushy wrote: »

What rugby do you play, do you mind me asking? Odd rule. I'd be giving away penalties all day if they couldn't kick.

They call it 'rugby loisir' here. Players range from teenagers to 60+. Uncontested scrums, no tap tackles and no kicking outside the 22. Otherwise the same as normal with full-on tackling and line-outs. I've never really been able to get my head around the logic of the no-kicking either but French rugby has a lot of little quirks.

skregs · 15-11-2011 1:14pm

I never go for the no. 9 because it's too difficult to predict if I am going to get penalised?

As soon as the scrummie has the ball not touching the ground I would think

Conas · 15-11-2011 2:27pm

Well since I was studying the laws and rules of the game not so long ago, here's my two cents.

*If the ruck isn't formed you can enter from any side to win the ball. It's pretty much a free for all, because the ball is technically still out. Watch what Pocock did again South Africa I think a year ago. A tackle was made, a semi ruck was formed, he played the ball on the ground clearly coming in from the side BUT since the ruck wasn't formed right he was entitled to do so.

*The ball is only out when the scrum half takes the ball from the ruck, the scrum half can hold the ball in the ruck and not be tackled. This is easy enough for a ref to spot. If a player comes in and tackles the scrum half, he can be pinged for it, and can also be pinged for being offside even if he attempts it, So it's a no brainer really. Let the ball come out, the just try and be fast enough.

*When a ruck has formed a player CAN still play the ball once he comes through the gate on his feet, and is physically able to push the opposition off the ball. Another sample being Pocock against Burger. The ruck was formed he wrestled Burger off the ball coming through the gate, and Australia were entitled to pile in over the top. The turnover is technically legal.

Eoin · 15-11-2011 2:32pm

I leave it at least a second after the number 9 takes it out just to ensure I don't get penalised?

Conas wrote: »

*The ball is only out when the scrum half takes the ball from the ruck, the scrum half can hold the ball in the ruck and not be tackled. This is easy enough for a ref to spot. If a player comes in and tackles the scrum half, he can be pinged for it, and can also be pinged for being offside even if he attempts it, So it's a no brainer really. Let the ball come out, the just try and be fast enough.

It sounds like a no-brainer, if that is the letter of the law. But I bet that most people posting here have seen where a tackle in that situation has been allowed.

Tim Robbins · 15-11-2011 3:02pm

Amazing. Very good evidence how much confusion this part of the game causes.

Lets look at the Law book, Law 16.6

LAW Book wrote:

"16.6 SUCCESSFUL END TO A RUCK

A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line. "

Anyone see anything there about the scrum half's hands? I don't.
It's the position of the ball not the the 9's hands. If the 9 touches the ball but hasn't moved it, why would the ball be in before he touches it and out after? It makes no logical sense.

So answer 1 is wrong.

If the 9 is in the process of taking it out but hasn't finished taking it out, well then it still hasn't left the ruck so the answer 2 is also wrong.

And the majority of people have picked 1 or 2.

Every single game a ref, there always someone shouting "hands on" - thinking the ruck is over, well it's not.

The problem is a ref's pre-match talk should be quick and brief otherwise you will reck heads. You can't go through every law so it's up to players to really ask.

I usally say it doesn't matter where the scrum half's hands are, the scrum half has to be to able to complete the action of taking the ball out.
The reaction is usually puzzled faces and it's understanable why.

Comments welcomed...

BoarHunter · 15-11-2011 3:06pm

I leave it at least a second after the number 9 takes it out just to ensure I don't get penalised?

If your name is Richie MC Caw you can play anytime

GerM · 15-11-2011 3:23pm

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Amazing. Very good evidence how much confusion this part of the game causes.

Lets look at the Law book, Law 16.6

Anyone see anything there about the scrum half's hands? I don't.
It's the position of the ball not the the 9's hands. If the 9 touches the ball but hasn't moved it, why would the ball be in before he touches it and out after? It makes no logical sense.

There are a lot of common misconceptions about some very central parts to the game and I would wager I still don't know a fair few. There's complete ambiguity in the laws and they never mention anything about the involvement of a scrum half in relation to a ruck ending lawfully. They deal with how a ruck can judged to be over whether successfully or unsuccessfully. That's why I use the criteria for forming a ruck to judge as to when it ends. When those criteria are no longer present, the ruck is over for me. The scrum half can juggle the ball on the ground with his hands if he wants. As long as he's not making an action to make opposition think the ball is being removed from the ruck, it's still in there and any attempt to get your hands on the ball should be a penalty for me.

castie · 15-11-2011 3:26pm

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Amazing. Very good evidence how much confusion this part of the game causes.

Lets look at the Law book, Law 16.6

Anyone see anything there about the scrum half's hands? I don't.
It's the position of the ball not the the 9's hands. If the 9 touches the ball but hasn't moved it, why would the ball be in before he touches it and out after? It makes no logical sense.

So answer 1 is wrong.

If the 9 is in the process of taking it out but hasn't finished taking it out, well then it still hasn't left the ruck so the answer 2 is also wrong.

And the majority of people have picked 1 or 2.

Every single game a ref, there always someone shouting "hands on" - thinking the ruck is over, well it's not.

The problem is a ref's pre-match talk should be quick and brief otherwise you will reck heads. You can't go through every law so it's up to players to really ask.

I usally say it doesn't matter where the scrum half's hands are, the scrum half has to be to able to complete the action of taking the ball out.
The reaction is usually puzzled faces and it's understanable why.

Comments welcomed...

I would argue that once the ball is off the deck its no longer a ruck and so the ruck has ended and scrummie is fair game.

Thoughts?

irishbucsfan · 15-11-2011 3:32pm

I never go for the no. 9 because it's too difficult to predict if I am going to get penalised?

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Amazing. Very good evidence how much confusion this part of the game causes.

Lets look at the Law book, Law 16.6

Anyone see anything there about the scrum half's hands? I don't.
It's the position of the ball not the the 9's hands. If the 9 touches the ball but hasn't moved it, why would the ball be in before he touches it and out after? It makes no logical sense.

So answer 1 is wrong.

If the 9 is in the process of taking it out but hasn't finished taking it out, well then it still hasn't left the ruck so the answer 2 is also wrong.

And the majority of people have picked 1 or 2.

Every single game a ref, there always someone shouting "hands on" - thinking the ruck is over, well it's not.

The problem is a ref's pre-match talk should be quick and brief otherwise you will reck heads. You can't go through every law so it's up to players to really ask.

I usally say it doesn't matter where the scrum half's hands are, the scrum half has to be to able to complete the action of taking the ball out.
The reaction is usually puzzled faces and it's understanable why.

Comments welcomed...

If someone who is not in the ruck takes possession of the ball, the ball is out of the ruck. That is absolutely how the law is supposed to be refereed.

And adjusting the ball on the ground or digging it out of the ruck is not possession, but picking it up to pass it IS possession.

It really should be clarified, as should the laws regarding pulling opposition players into the ruck (Alain Rolland's semi-final performance I'm looking at you).

GerM · 15-11-2011 3:39pm

When the number 9 has finished taking it out, I go for him?

castie wrote: »

I would argue that once the ball is off the deck its no longer a ruck and so the ruck has ended and scrummie is fair game.

Thoughts?

I agree. If the ball is not on the ground, it is not a ruck.

Law 16.1B

How can a ruck form: Players are on their feet. At least one player must be in physical contact with an opponent. The ball must be on the ground. If the ball is off the ground for any reason, the ruck is not formed.

Now, the final line is somewhat ambiguous and it can be argued that it's in reference to only the formation of a ruck and not the ending of the ruck but, as far as I'm concerned, if the ball is not on the ground, it is no longer a ruck. The scrum half cannot pick the ball off the ground and hold it there in his hands, safe in the knowledge that he cannot be touched.

Tim Robbins · 15-11-2011 3:48pm

castie wrote: »

I would argue that once the ball is off the deck its no longer a ruck and so the ruck has ended and scrummie is fair game.

Thoughts?

Understandable. Since the ball has to be on the deck or on a player who is on the deck to be a ruck. But what if it's off the deck but not behind the hindmost foot. He's just in the process of taking the ball out, so he can pass.

We're into shade of grey here.

When is the ball out of a ruck?

When counter rucking when do you think it's ok to go for the 9? 87 votes

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