No getting away with penalty points now.

-Corkie- · 14-07-2011 11:14am #1

A Dundalk judge rubbished claims of people claiming they never received the fine in the post in order to evade penalty points...
http://www.thejournal.ie/i-never-got-the-letter-no-longer-an-excuse-to-escape-penalty-points-176770-Jul2011/

drunkmonkey · 14-07-2011 11:19am

That shouldn't be allowed, not every letter gets delivered and without proof of receipt i'd say it's open to appeal. If they want to make it lock tight they need to register the letters. I'd argue that just dropping it in a letter box is not proof enough either.
There's still a work around, I won't be post it here though for fear it closes;)

MugMugs · 14-07-2011 11:34am

-Corkie- wrote: »

A Dundalk judge rubbished claims of people claiming they never received the fine in the post in order to evade penalty points...
http://www.thejournal.ie/i-never-got-the-letter-no-longer-an-excuse-to-escape-penalty-points-176770-Jul2011/

I was brought to Court over a speeding fine I actually and honestly did not receive. Told the Judge and he asked for my Postal Itinerary !

WHAT ?

He wanted my personal Log of all post received in order to prove that I had not received the fine.

I appealed and got off.

14-07-2011 11:35am

I was caught speeding, got the fine in the post, paid it and got the points. If 2/3s ish of those caught are happy to lie in Court than that's their own business I suppose, if Courts are seeing this amount of folk claiming that they never received the notice than I can see this judges point.

Henry Ford III · 14-07-2011 11:53am

Little point in guessing what percentage of notices were/were not actually received.

p.s. Why didn't they use registered post?

Gumbo · 14-07-2011 11:55am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

p.s. Why didn't they use registered post?

I presume costs involved?

Henry Ford III · 14-07-2011 12:03pm

kceire wrote: »

I presume costs involved?

Probably, but imagine the cost of all the cases heard and thrown out due to this false economy?

godtabh · 14-07-2011 12:05pm

kceire wrote: »

I presume costs involved?

but they have no problem hand delivering a summons?

If you want accountability in a system make it accountable.

dharn · 14-07-2011 1:42pm

surely the law has to be applied equally to every body, one judge decides to accept that all the people claiming not to have received notice are telling the truth, another judge decides that they are all telling lies, if one judge accepts that no proof of delivery exists then all judges must

ironclaw · 14-07-2011 2:00pm

If its not registered then there is certainly grounds for appeal in my eyes. It is a legitimate claim if one didn't genuinely receive the letter. Lying is another matter and would be perjury in court, which is a fairly serious offense. Suppose some people have a neck of brass.

I'm shocked they arn't registered letters though. The cost of court versus €5 (Or less in bulk) for a registered letter doesn't make sense.

Voodoomelon · 14-07-2011 2:38pm

ironclaw wrote: »

I'm shocked they arn't registered letters though. The cost of court versus €5 (Or less in bulk) for a registered letter doesn't make sense.

It does to the Gardaí. If they register letters, they have to pay for it. If the courts time is wasted, the court pays for it, not the Gardaí. Its all about pushing the costs onto someone else.

alias no.9 · 14-07-2011 2:46pm

What are they being summonsed with, speeding or not paying the fixed penalty notice on time?

IMHO, they should be summonsed for speeding and anyone claiming they did not get the fixed penalty notice should be given the option of pleading guilty and paying it on the spot with the associated 2 points, or pleading not guilty and arguing their case with the consequent increased fine and 4 points if they're subsequently found guilty.

14-07-2011 2:48pm

alias no.9 wrote: »

What are they being summonsed with, speeding or not paying the fixed penalty notice on time?

IMHO, they should be summonsed for speeding and anyone claiming they did not get the fixed penalty notice should be given the option of pleading guilty and paying it on the spot with the associated 2 points, or pleading not guilty and arguing their case with the consequent increased fine and 4 points if they're subsequently found guilty.

That's beautifully logical. Judicial system wouldn't like that :pac:

Hotwheels · 14-07-2011 4:41pm

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/speeding-cases-thrown-out-of-court-due-to-lack-of-notice-2821181.html

Avns1s · 14-07-2011 4:46pm

ironclaw wrote: »

If its not registered then there is certainly grounds for appeal in my eyes. It is a legitimate claim if one didn't genuinely receive the letter. Lying is another matter and would be perjury in court, which is a fairly serious offense. Suppose some people have a neck of brass.

I'm shocked they arn't registered letters though. The cost of court versus €5 (Or less in bulk) for a registered letter doesn't make sense.

I would agree with all of the above but just to take it a stage further....

Suppose I genuinely did not receive the Fixed penalty notice and end up in court, go under oath and state that I did not receive it. If the judge does not accept this, then he is accusing me of lying under oath if he convicts. Surely therefore, the charge should be extended to perjury?

I never gave this much though before now, but looking at it, I think that they would want to start using some kind of recorded delivery pretty soon! Otherwise, I think they are open not only to appeal but also a charge of defamation and to be honest, if the post was reliable, then none of us would be paying nearly €6 for the basic registered postage on a letter, now would we?

TomMc · 14-07-2011 5:42pm

If the fine for a speeding ticket is 80 quid, well then the authorities can well afford to pay for registered or some signed for on delivery type of post. And they would be able to get a special rate which would cost way less than what it costs a member of the public to register a letter at their local post office.

pappyodaniel · 14-07-2011 6:39pm

Was pretty sure I got caught on Saturday night last, was in the fast lane of a dual carriageway pretty much going the same speed as two cars in the slow lane, I was in my own world and not thinking there could be one parked around the bend where it usually is. Anyway it was too late by the time I noticed it, I saw a couple of flashes from the back of the van, either that or fingers crossed it was the reflection of the lights from the cars passing it. I was only going 5kmph over the limit.

Anyway, I got a letter today from the Dept of Transport! I was half expecting this so I wasn't too p*ssed off. I opened the envelope only to see that it had been 3 years from my first offence and I had just lost 2 points from my licence

.

Happy days but there's still the possibility of getting another letter, this week or next week.

Our man in Havana · 14-07-2011 6:42pm

It would eat into the revenue.

ScouseMouse · 14-07-2011 6:47pm

My post used to get lost regularly. I even went down and had a shot at the postmaster with a letter in my hand a neighbour received, but sent down to me. His face dropped when I showed him it was a cheque for 1500 euro.

Havent had trouble since, but it is plain unjust if a fine had have got lost as well and I had of been done for it.

Our man in Havana · 14-07-2011 6:51pm

It is only a circuit court ruling. Until the high court and above has ruled on this issue the way out is still there.

Damien360 · 14-07-2011 9:41pm

Our man in Havana wrote: »

It is only a circuit court ruling. Until the high court and above has ruled on this issue the way out is still there.

more to the point. this is a ruling by one judge in his palace. it is not precendent for either him, his fellow judges in the area, or any other judge in their palace. they ignore sentence guidelines on the basis of "nobody tells them what to do" and they will ignore this also.

TheZ · 14-07-2011 10:38pm

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0025/sec0044.html#sec44

This section was to cover this - pay fine plus two points when summons arrives. Don't think section was commenced yet

Our man in Havana · 15-07-2011 5:10am

TheZ wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0025/sec0044.html#sec44

This section was to cover this - pay fine plus two points when summons arrives. Don't think section was commenced yet

There is still a way out me thinks. They will be looking for double the original fine. I am sure some barrister will argue that this is unconstitutional where the original notice was not received.

This measure may make a few people pay up but the determined ones will still go to court.

corktina · 15-07-2011 5:54am

pappyodaniel wrote: »

Was pretty sure I got caught on Saturday night last, was in the fast lane of a dual carriageway pretty much going the same speed as two cars in the slow lane, I was in my own world and not thinking there could be one parked around the bend where it usually is. Anyway it was too late by the time I noticed it, I saw a couple of flashes from the back of the van, either that or fingers crossed it was the reflection of the lights from the cars passing it. I was only going 5kmph over the limit.

Anyway, I got a letter today from the Dept of Transport! I was half expecting this so I wasn't too p*ssed off. I opened the envelope only to see that it had been 3 years from my first offence and I had just lost 2 points from my licence .

Happy days but there's still the possibility of getting another letter, this week or next week.

I'll say what you are all thinking...there is no fast lane , its the overtaking lane, if there was a God, you would get two tickets, but you wont get any...speedos are usually anything up to 10% over-reading and at 5 km/h over the limit you were probably in reality under it.

TheZ · 15-07-2011 3:22pm

Our man in Havana wrote: »

There is still a way out me thinks. They will be looking for double the original fine. I am sure some barrister will argue that this is unconstitutional where the original notice was not received.

This measure may make a few people pay up but the determined ones will still go to court.

s44(7) says that not receiving the fixed charge notice is not a defence

AFAIK it has not been commenced yet

There is other loophole worth looking out for if you are charged with speeding in a built up area - built up area is defined by reference to local authority legislation and a lot of tickets were issued that were not in built up areas as defined - worked for me last year

Our man in Havana · 16-07-2011 9:10am

s44(7) says that not receiving the fixed charge notice is not a defence

That is probably unconstitutional. It will take someone with sacks of cash to take that to the Supreme court to find out.

Blitzkrieger · 16-07-2011 11:33am

A couple of months back I got a letter in the door addressed to some Polish guy in number 25. None of the houses have numbers on them so I have no idea which one is number 25 and I dropped it back to the post office.

Proof of postage is not proof of delivery. It's lunacy to believe that it is. The sort of lunacy only a judge can get away with. A judge may be 100% certain that everybody in front of him claiming they didn't get the notice is lying, but unless he can prove it he should not be able to convict.

alias no.9 wrote: »

IMHO, they should be summonsed for speeding and anyone claiming they did not get the fixed penalty notice should be given the option of pleading guilty and paying it on the spot with the associated 2 points, or pleading not guilty and arguing their case with the consequent increased fine and 4 points if they're subsequently found guilty.

Not a bad idea, but as a seperate topic they shouldn't get 4 points for subsequentyly being found guilty. You shouldn't be punished for trying to defend yourself. Not everybody who's convicted is guilty.

creedp · 16-07-2011 1:24pm

MugMugs wrote: »

I was brought to Court over a speeding fine I actually and honestly did not receive. Told the Judge and he asked for my Postal Itinerary !

He wanted my personal Log of all post received in order to prove that I had not received the fine.

I appealed and got off.

I remember a couple of years back (1996:)) I got a parking fine and never paid it as I moved address shortly after. I didn't receive the fine before I moved. Anyway some time later I got a call from a Guard advising that if I came to the station the following morning and paid the fine I wouldn't have to attend a court hearing to be charged. So I didn't question him and paid. However, in the aftermath I was thinking where did he get my contact details as he rang me in work. Also I actually never received the fine so how come I was summoned to court without notification.

Anyway I put it down to imaturity because I'm obviously much more wordly wise now:D

pH · 18-07-2011 9:11am

Just got a speeding fine/points letter through the door, pretty annoyed as I normally drive to the limits and have never even been stopped before.

99kph in an 80 zone.

Anyway, after taking time to read it, it was at a place and time I never drive (Maynooth at 8:30am), so I got concerned that maybe someone has cloned my car. On close inspection - the reg on the car in the picture is not mine - my car is 05Dxxxxx (a hyundai) and the car in the picture is clearly an audi 06Dxxxxx (the rest of the plate matches).

The form I got is terrible, there are no instructions on it for what to do if you feel it's in error.

Anyone had this before? Can I get them to recheck it, or is my only defence to have a day in court?

cipro 55 · 18-07-2011 10:25am

pH wrote: »

Just got a speeding fine/points letter through the door, pretty annoyed as I normally drive to the limits and have never even been stopped before.

99kph in an 80 zone.

Anyway, after taking time to read it, it was at a place and time I never drive (Maynooth at 8:30am), so I got concerned that maybe someone has cloned my car. On close inspection - the reg on the car in the picture is not mine - my car is 05Dxxxxx (a hyundai) and the car in the picture is clearly an audi 06Dxxxxx (the rest of the plate matches).

The form I got is terrible, there are no instructions on it for what to do if you feel it's in error.

Anyone had this before? Can I get them to recheck it, or is my only defence to have a day in court?

PH If you call the number on the form they will tell you what you can do.

Our man in Havana · 18-07-2011 1:02pm

Personally, I would do nothing and let them makes fools of themselves.

No getting away with penalty points now.

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