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J'accuse le libertarians

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  • 14-06-2011 2:31pm
    #1
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭


    Putting my cards on the table I really dislike libertarianism. I think it is a selfish ideology that doesn't take reality into account and is a detrimental influence on society. It would be fine if kept as a theory but the libertarians are influencing society in the form of disaster capitalism and particularly the republican party in the us. Also I see posts in almost every thread telling us how if only we understood it we would see what a great idea it is.

    The other problem is that all libertarians I have come across all have different ideas about what it means. Now of course any ideology has branches and factions but it seems to me that a lot of that espoused by libertarians is contradictory. Free market for example, or that a government should have nothing to do with the healthcare of a human being but the copyright of a multinational should be protected!

    What I'm asking for is for a libertarian to describe what the society they would like to see. I don't mean wishy washy stuff like well we would be free to do whatever we want so long as it does not harm others, but a bit of detail . Pretty much everything we do affects others what is meant by harm? Smoking in public harms others so would that be allowed? If someone gets sick or injured in a libertarian society and they don't have insurance what happens to them?

    Stuff like that.

    So there's the challenge.

    preempting some expected replies no I have not read the complete works of the Austrian school of economics and assorted pamphlets or atlas shrugged. If you could give a brief description of an imaginary libertarian country or what Ireland would be like if it was libertarian would be fine. Shouldn't be too hard to do and yes it will be picked full of holes but isn't that what a discussion is?


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    #2
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    20Cent wrote: »
    I think it is a selfish ideology that doesn't take reality into account...
    I think the latter is a sine qua non of any ideology, almost by definition.


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    #3
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #4
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    So no description of a libertarian society yet.


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    #5
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    20Cent wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    You are just throwing out a broad, vague condemnation of libertarianism (apparently without having read much on the thing) and saying 'Discuss the specifics'. Except it isn't enough to ask for specific defences of libertarianism if you're only going to give non-specific criticism. Why not just pick one thing in particular?

    You're also ignoring the fact that there is a broad spectrum within libertarianism. I consider myself to have libertarian views on a variety of topics, but I'm guessing I would disagree with many - if not, perhaps - most libertarians. So again I don't see the point in answering criticism of libertarianism if it's something which I too am opposed to.

    Permabear wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    J'accuse... ta connaissance de la langue, Libertaire!


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    #6
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #7
    SupaNova
    Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    This is Libertarian philosophy:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTQqvDtPzY0

    Give me an example of what you mean by Libertarian disaster capitalism?
    preempting some expected replies no I have not read the complete works of the Austrian school of economics and assorted pamphlets or atlas shrugged.

    I seriously doubt you have read any economics book, let alone one of an Austrian View. Let me know what books you have read and what you disagree with.


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    #8
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Libertarianism sounds like its as bad for 'splitters' as left-wing politics.


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    #9
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    SupaNova wrote: »
    This is Libertarian philosophy:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTQqvDtPzY0

    Give me an example of what you mean by Libertarian disaster capitalism?
    That video looks like a recruitment campaign for a cult!

    Disaster capitalism is when a crisis is used to implement policies which would not normally be implementable. For example in New Orleans after the flood many people who left their homes returned to find that their public schools were now private. The 2004 tsunami enabled the government of Sri Lanka to force the fishermen off beachfront property so it could be sold to hotel developers.
    In Ireland at the moment the poorest and the most vulnerable are being hit hardest by the economic crisis. Low wage workers and carers etc are being hit. Privatisation and the removal of govenment benefits are features of libertarianism.
    SupaNova wrote: »
    I seriously doubt you have read any economics book, let alone one of an Austrian View. Let me know what books you have read and what you disagree with.

    That would be untrue.


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    #10
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    The two arguments that come up in every thread about libertarianism are that anyone with questions should educate themselves because they obviously do not understand it. The second is that libertarianism is a broad church with a wide range of views and conflicts so it is difficult to pin down.

    Well to make it easier can the libertarians describe what THEY see a libertarian society looking like. ie their branch/faction?

    The make it even easier say a child born is born into a poor family in a libertarian state. Describe how they would live. Would they be educated? What happens if they get sick or injured?


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    #11
    SupaNova
    Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    That video looks like a recruitment campaign for a cult!

    Lol ignore the music, do you disagree with the philosophy?

    I'm not surprised, rather than focus or debate any point, you resort to slander.
    The two arguments that come up in every thread about libertarianism are that anyone with questions should educate themselves because they obviously do not understand it. The second is that libertarianism is a broad church with a wide range of views and conflicts so it is difficult to pin down.

    Well to make it easier can the libertarians describe what THEY see a libertarian society looking like. ie their branch/faction?

    That video covers the philosophy of the wide spectrum of Libertarian's.
    Disaster capitalism is when a crisis is used to implement policies which would not normally be implementable. For example in New Orleans after the flood many people who left their homes returned to find that their public schools were now private. The 2004 tsunami enabled the government of Sri Lanka to force the fishermen off beachfront property so it could be sold to hotel developers.
    In Ireland at the moment the poorest and the most vulnerable are being hit hardest by the economic crisis. Low wage workers and carers etc are being hit. Privatisation and the removal of govenment benefits are features of libertarianism.

    What you have done is made up a new term 'disaster capitalism' rather than use the word privatisation, whilst also using the words government force in your condemnation.
    That would be untrue.

    Lol care to put my doubts to rest. Do you know anything about the Austrian view of the economic crisis or Business Cycle theory. Why some evil libertarian's were even warning of an impending crisis, and are warning of a much bigger one if we continue down the route of running deficits and printing money.


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    #12
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SupaNova wrote: »
    What you have done is made up a new term 'disaster capitalism' rather than use the word privatisation...
    To be fair, Naomi Klein has written a book with that title; it's not as if it's just been coined.


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    #13
    SupaNova
    Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    To be fair, Naomi Klein has written a book with that title; it's not as if it's just been coined.

    Unaware of the book, but from reading the reviews it seems that privatization during a crisis is a fair definition of her term 'disaster capitalism'.


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    #14
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    SupaNova, try to remember to attack the posts, not the posters.
    SupaNova wrote: »
    I seriously doubt you have read any economics book, let alone one of an Austrian View. Let me know what books you have read and what you disagree with.

    Try to refrain from this kind of comment. You're essentially just saying "hey, I think you're ignorant".
    SupaNova wrote:
    I'm not surprised, rather than focus or debate any point, you resort to slander.

    See point above. Again, you've jumped immediately and without justification to the personal.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #15
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    20Cent wrote: »
    preempting some expected replies no I have not read the complete works of the Austrian school of economics and assorted pamphlets or atlas shrugged. If you could give a brief description of an imaginary libertarian country or what Ireland would be like if it was libertarian would be fine. Shouldn't be too hard to do and yes it will be picked full of holes but isn't that what a discussion is?

    In your opening sentence you point out that you "really dislike libertarianism"; in the following paragraphs you then proceed to display your complete ignorance of that which you claim to dislike. You then disingenuously invite others to "discuss" libertarianism, even though it's patently obvious that you're only interested in swatting at straw men. So, in answer to your question, no, that's not what a discussion is, at all. In fact, it couldn't be much further from what a discussion is. If you were genuinely interested in discussing libertarianism then you would have the courtesy to familiarise yourself with the basics of the ideology at the very least. It's clear that you have not done so, nor do you have any intention of doing so.


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    #16
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    SupaNova wrote: »
    Unaware of the book, but from reading the reviews it seems that privatization during a crisis is a fair definition of her term 'disaster capitalism'.

    I think that is a fair definition of the term Klein defined. For example if the parents were still in their homes and didn't have to be evacuated then they would have been in a position to campaign and fight against the privatisation of the schools so the crisis/disaster was taken advantage of in order to implement a right wing policy which would not normally happen in a democratic society.


    re the video thanks for posting it but that is the wishy washy stuff I mentioned in the op. Freedom to do whatever you want so long as it does not harm others. Sounds great but there are lots of practical issues with that. Most things a person does will affect others in some way. If my neighbour likes to take drugs and owns an assault rifle in the comfort of his home that is his business. But what about my right to be able to sleep at night without worrying he's going to get all paranoid and start firing through the walls?

    If someone gets seriously ill in a libertarian society and they don't have insurance what happens to them?

    Also still waiting for a description of what life would be like in a libertarian society. Since there are so many branches/factions just answer as to what you think it would be like.

    Thanks


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    #17
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    20Cent wrote: »
    Disaster capitalism is when a crisis is used to implement policies which would not normally be implementable. For example in New Orleans after the flood many people who left their homes returned to find that their public schools were now private. The 2004 tsunami enabled the government of Sri Lanka to force the fishermen off beachfront property so it could be sold to hotel developers.

    But disaster politics works both ways. The Great Depression allowed for the emergence of the welfare state in the US; previously given the dominance of classical liberal economic policy, programs like unemployment insurance and social security would have been unthinkable.

    I think the more accurate way to think about crisis moments isn't that one ideology always dominates, but rather it is a critical juncture which presents an opportunity for a Kuhnian 'paradigm shift'. Since the 1980s, neoliberalism has dominated the way that we think about political economy. It remains to be seen what, if anything will emerge from the current crisis.

    I would also note that what often gets dubbed 'disaster capitalism' or a fetishization of the free market is anything but. More often than not, these kinds of actions are really about crony capitalism, and a commitment to protecting a certain sector of the market for the well-connected. By constantly shrieking about libertarianism and/or neoliberalism, I think a lot of activists are taking their eye off of the ball.
    20Cent wrote: »
    In Ireland at the moment the poorest and the most vulnerable are being hit hardest by the economic crisis. Low wage workers and carers etc are being hit. Privatisation and the removal of govenment benefits are features of libertarianism.

    But the changes in Ireland aren't being forced by any great ideological shift, they are a result of simple mathematics: Ireland cannot afford to maintain its current level of public services, given its revenues. I would consider myself more of a social democrat than a libertarian, but I will freely acknowledge that the current crisis would not have happened if Ireland was committed to libertarian/neoliberal principles because 1) the state would have not intervened with the bank guarantee and 2) the levels of public spending reached in 2006 would never have occurred in the first place.

    I do not think that privatization automatically means more efficiency. I do not think that markets work perfectly. But I think that those who are traditionally put into the libertarian "box", most notably Hayek and Friedman, offer a valuable alternative perspective in thinking about the role of government in society, and in particular when it comes to Hayek, the importance of thinking about the limits of human knowledge and foresight when it comes to policy-making.


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    #18
    SupaNova
    Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    preempting some expected replies no I have not read the complete works of the Austrian school of economics and assorted pamphlets or atlas shrugged. If you could give a brief description of an imaginary libertarian country or what Ireland would be like if it was libertarian would be fine. Shouldn't be too hard to do and yes it will be picked full of holes but isn't that what a discussion is?

    This implies you have at least some knowledge of Austrian economics.
    I seriously doubt you have read any economics book, let alone one of an Austrian View. Let me know what books you have read and what you disagree with.

    This was not meant to be a "hey i think your ignorant", but a "hey i think your lying, prove me wrong". I would be genuinely curious if you had actually read some Austrian economics, and what you disagree with even if i think its unlikely you have.


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    #19
    SupaNova
    Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    re the video thanks for posting it but that is the wishy washy stuff I mentioned in the op. Freedom to do whatever you want so long as it does not harm others. Sounds great but there are lots of practical issues with that. Most things a person does will affect others in some way. If my neighbour likes to take drugs and owns an assault rifle in the comfort of his home that is his business. But what about my right to be able to sleep at night without worrying he's going to get all paranoid and start firing through the walls?

    Self ownership and the non initiation of force are the core principles. In the video it said that you have the right to protect yourself from the initiation of force, with the help of others. Libertarian's believe a governments function should be to protect citizens from the initiation of force and uphold the principle of self ownership and property rights.


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    #20
    SupaNova
    Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    Also still waiting for a description of what life would be like in a libertarian society. Since there are so many branches/factions just answer as to what you think it would be like.

    We can't even guess what our current society will look like in 5 years, let alone some imaginary ideological one, and you are asking someone to describe every facet of how a Libertarian society would look.


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    #21
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    SupaNova wrote: »
    We can't even guess what our current society will look like in 5 years, let alone some imaginary ideological one, and you are asking someone to describe every facet of how a Libertarian society would look.

    Not asking for a description of every facet. Just a brief description of what it would be like. Someone born into a poor family in a libertarian society, do they get education? what happens if they get sick?


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    #22
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    SupaNova wrote: »
    Self ownership and the non initiation of force are the core principles. In the video it said that you have the right to protect yourself from the initiation of force, with the help of others. Libertarian's believe a governments function should be to protect citizens from the initiation of force and uphold the principle of self ownership and property rights.

    So what would happen in my example re the neighbour?


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    #23
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    20Cent wrote: »
    Not asking for a description of every facet. Just a brief description of what it would be like. Someone born into a poor family in a libertarian society, do they get education? what happens if they get sick?

    What do YOU think would happen? What happens now in Ireland? Nothing great from what I read on boards.


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    #24
    SupaNova
    Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    So what would happen in my example re the neighbour?

    If a drugged up guy with a gun decided to shoot you and you had no way to avoid the situation you would die, the same as what would happen in any other society, are you implying that this scenario is more likely to happen in a Libertarian society?
    Not asking for a description of every facet. Just a brief description of what it would be like. Someone born into a poor family in a libertarian society, do they get education? what happens if they get sick?

    Education would be a lot cheaper, people of all income brackets would be able to afford education, and in general people would be a lot wealthier. We would have a free market education radically different to that of state monopoly control. Has any industry improved less over the last few centuries. Teachers still have long summer holidays which has roots in freeing children in summer to help harvest crops, we herd 30 or so individuals sit them in front of a whiteboard(instead of a blackboard) as a group with a blanket curriculum. Teach compulsory Irish and Religion, No ICT, has it improved? Kids today would be better off learning by themselves, ever hear of the Khanacademy? check out a TedTalk regarding self education in India's slums? Education for all is a worthy goal, but anything resembling state education is not a worthy goal.

    Healthcare would be similar story, under free market competition, a lot cheaper, and of faster improving quality. People would be able to afford a lot more. For those that cannot afford treatment they would be dependent on their extended family and community and charity to help in times of need.


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    #25
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    SupaNova wrote: »
    If a drugged up guy with a gun decided to shoot you and you had no way to avoid the situation you would die, the same as what would happen in any other society, are you implying that this scenario is more likely to happen in a Libertarian society?

    It would be more likely. In a libertarian society it would be perfectly legal to sit in your house doing drugs with a loaded gun. So long as the guy does not start shooting he'd be fine. Still aren't my rights are being infringed because of the stress?
    SupaNova wrote: »
    Education would be a lot cheaper, people of all income brackets would be able to afford education, and in general people would be a lot wealthier. We would have a free market education radically different to that of state monopoly control. Has any industry improved less over the last few centuries. Teachers still have long summer holidays which has roots in freeing children in summer to help harvest crops, we herd 30 or so individuals sit them in front of a whiteboard(instead of a blackboard) as a group with a blanket curriculum. Teach compulsory Irish and Religion, No ICT, has it improved? Kids today would be better off learning by themselves, ever hear of the Khanacademy? check out a TedTalk regarding self education in India's slums? Education for all is a worthy goal, but anything resembling state education is not a worthy goal.

    Healthcare would be similar story, under free market competition, a lot cheaper, and of faster improving quality. People would be able to afford a lot more. For those that cannot afford treatment they would be dependent on their extended family and community and charity to help in times of need.

    Heard of Khanacademy think its very good but wouldn't think it is a replacement for attending a school. So there would be no public schools? The poor parents will have to pay for education (presuming there is some available which they can afford) or rely on a charity. Would education be compulsory?

    re Health. Those that cannot afford treatment would have to rely on extended family and community and charity. So what happens if that does not work out?


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    #26
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    What do YOU think would happen? What happens now in Ireland? Nothing great from what I read on boards.

    Well since there would be no public health system then I would hope the parents can afford some form of health care or have the child at home, hopefully there would be no complications. There would be no midwife visits so presuming the parents know how to look after the child properly and aren't using the legal drugs. If the kid survives that then when it comes to school since there is no public schooling they will have to find some education for the child somehow. Maybe go to a charity school or something.
    If the kid gets seriously ill then the parents will need to raise money from friends and family to get them treated or that some charity takes pity on them. Otherwise what happens?
    This sounds like a horrible system to me.

    The current system is not great but it is still better than nothing. I wouldn't want to rely on being able to afford private healthcare or education.


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    #27
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #28
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Can see how it might look like that I meant that I would not want to have to rely on charity if I couldn't afford it.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    So you agree with a minimal level of welfare (are you sure you are a libertarian?), we would just disagree regarding to level of support given.

    My experience of the public healthcare system has been excellent, thankfully its only been very brief and twice but the service I got was great. There are a lot of areas for improvement obviously but don't think privatisation is the answer.


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    #29
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #30
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    A la cart Catholicism is fine by me I'm one myself. But a catholic who extols the superiority of his faith while not believing in the Resurrection is suspect imo.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    We could post up examples of failures in public healthcare all day, also examples from private healthcare it is pointless. I just don't think that healthcare should be left in private hands, a mixture of public and private is best.


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    #31
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    So I check out this Hayek guy and it comes as no surprise that he was a Pinochet supporter as so many right wing hero's including Friedman, Reagan and Thatcher. This reinforces my view that when the libertarian talks about freedom etc they are not talking about individual freedom but actually the removal of safeguards to protect people from exploitation.


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