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Feminism

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  • 10-05-2011 2:11pm
    #1
    Count Duckula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 570 ✭✭✭


    What's the attitude towards it from a male perspective? A still-relevant movement that has a hell of a lot to fight for yet? Or is it now largely the domain of man-haters or those looking for superiority not equality?

    Do the men of tGC consider themselves feminists, egalitarians, or neither? Are you interested in men's rights, and if so is the successful acquisition of those rights inextricably tied to the feminist movement and its goals?

    I'd be interested to read the discussion from a decidedly male perspective.


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    #2
    Zombienosh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,911 ✭✭✭Zombienosh


    can we have a maleinism movement?


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    #3
    3hn2givr7mx1sc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,838 ✭✭✭✭3hn2givr7mx1sc


    Zombienosh wrote: »
    can we have a maleinism movement?

    No, that'd be classed as sexist I'd say.


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    #4
    Zombienosh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,911 ✭✭✭Zombienosh


    well if we cant move, they cant move.


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    #5
    18AD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭18AD


    Militant Feminists. I take my hat off to them...

    They don't like that

    - Milton Jones

    :pac:

    I'm in favour of equal rights but I don't come across many feminist issues. Being a man and all.


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    #6
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    I have my reservations about threads like this considering some of the shenanigans that similar topics have brought out in posters in the past however I will give the benefit of the doubt and leave it open.

    However,if there are is any,and I mean ANY messing from anyone then infractions and/or bans will be handed out.

    If people cant conduct themselves in a respectful and adult fashion then they will be dealt with.

    Soap boxing,insults or thread de-railing to name but a few constitute messing just so there are no ambiguities.

    I dont like having to put warnings like this in threads however its at the stage that its almost a must.

    First and only warning guys and gals.


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    #7
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    spacer.gif


    I was putting a funny feminist link here and it didnt work and when then I see the above warning.................the gods are looking out for me today. Hope I didnt waste all that good luck with the Euro Lotto coming up this eve.

    Oh and I am all for equality and burning bras.........


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    #8
    Count Duckula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Count Duckula


    Zombienosh wrote: »
    can we have a maleinism movement?

    1) There is a male "version" of the feminist movement. It's called masculism.

    2) Is the ultimate goal of gender equality (both genders) not inherent in feminism anyway?

    3) Given the way that society is structured, is there such a call for masculism, or is the classic "well where's my movement" just trotted out to dismiss those calling for gender equality?


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    #9
    Brendan Williamson
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Brendan Williamson


    @Count Duckula

    I dont think both genders are equally represented in feminism, i think any beliefs that lead one towards feminism harbor with them a belief that women are being discriminated in some way and it should be stopped, leaving very little room to fight mens battles as well, and this happens across the board, activists of any cause can vey quickly be blinded to other causes around them.

    And regards your qualms about the need for masculism, i think to a certain extent that could be one of the main reasons it got off the ground as a movement, but now that its here, i think there is a call for it, take injustices towards men in divorce courts, where primary custody of children is almost always given to the mother, women being allowed marry younger than men in some US states, men being charged drastically higher amounts for car insurance even though pricing by race is forbidden, and the insidiously harmful way in which men are treated in society, where they are expected to give up their seat for women, offer to carry a womans bag in an airport for example, or carry everything in to the house after a shopping excursion, pay more than their share in a restaurant or other situation, coupled with the abhorrent way in which violence against men is ignored and even considered common practice today, you can often see men being hit by their wives or girlfriends in many of our favourite sitcoms (but its so common most people wouldnt even notice), the popular stationary products emblazoned "boys are stupid, throw rocks at them", i myself have been given dirty looks just for grabbing an ex-girlfriends wrist to stop her from hitting me.

    these are all injustices that would never be addressed by any feminism movement, i wouldnt consider myself a masculist, i think the ultimate road to gender equality is to almost ignore its existence so i would consider myself an egalitarian with goals entirely independent of, although not in opposition to, the feminist movement


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    #10
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    There was a thread about a month ago by Liah (link), that was pretty much looking to gauge what the perspective is also.
    What's the attitude towards it from a male perspective?

    Well from myself, I don't see women being put down in soceity today. Certainly as much as they once were.
    A still-relevant movement that has a hell of a lot to fight for yet?

    The relevance depends on what is left that they "want / need."
    Or is it now largely the domain of man-haters or those looking for superiority not equality?

    In media such as tv shows and movies they are often parodied as being agressive towards men. I don't think that can be a true representantion of a feminist as it would be going against the ideals they are looking to have set for themselves. If someone is having an issue with descrimination and their human rights are not being up held, it doesn't help one's case to then take someone elses into disregard also.

    But with that said, no matter what ideal someone wants to pursue or how good their intentions are, envitably there can always be a degree of fanatisicm attached to it.
    Do the men of tGC consider themselves feminists, egalitarians, or neither?

    I'm just a bloke who believes in being fair to others as long as they don't give me reason otherwise. What that would make me, I honestly don't know.
    Are you interested in men's rights, and if so is the successful acquisition of those rights inextricably tied to the feminist movement and its goals?

    I, like the UN think of it as Humans Rights, gender is irrelevant in that regard.


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    #11
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    I don't like the power feminists have and I don't think they make good use of it.
    Being able to declare someones as sexist is a powerful weapon that they often abuse to get people fired who they disagree with even if they can't prove them wrong.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/may/08/lazar-greenfield-semen-antidepressant-women


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    #12
    Count Duckula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Count Duckula


    But what power is that? Surely our androcentric society exerts more power over them than they do over it?

    If feminists were some unstoppable force, would they still have anything left to fight for?


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    #13
    donfers
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭donfers


    i think we are all in favour of equal rights, no one can really argue against that with any kind of credibility

    the reality is that in a capitalist world there will always be inequalities and these inequalities are often not motivated by gender discrimination and are often not directed solely at women

    the catch-all "I am a woman and something bad happened to me therefore there must be some conspiratorial patriarchal forces at play" gets very tiring after a while, when some feminists overplay that card it turns people right off

    yes i have sympathy when women are treated unequally, unfairly or disrespectfully just because they happent to be women, that is simply wrong

    so what is crucial is analysing the underlying causes behind the inequalities that affect women and responding accordingly, if they are merely a result of socio-economic realities then it is disingenuous and counter-productive to label these issues as feminist issues as they are not specifically targetting women or are not consciously treating women unequally (the system is indiscriminate in terms of who it screws over) - it's a divisive strategy that enables the oppressive hegemony to continue (we fail to unite), but there you go, the system relies on the fact that we are basically all selfish creatures and motivated by self-interest


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    #14
    Count Duckula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Count Duckula


    donfers wrote: »
    i think we are all in favour of equal rights, no one can really argue against that with any kind of credibility

    the reality is that in a capitalist world there will always be inequalities and these inequalities are often not motivated by gender discrimination and are often not directed solely at women

    the catch-all "I am a woman and something bad happened to me therefore there must be some conspiratorial patriarchal forces at play" gets very tiring after a while, when some feminists overplay that card it turns people right off

    yes i have sympathy when women are treated unequally, unfairly or disrespectfully just because they happent to be women, that is simply wrong

    so what is crucial is analysing the underlying causes behind the inequalities that affect women and responding accordingly, if they are merely a result of socio-economic realities then it is disingenuous and counter-productive to label these issues as feminist issues as they are not specifically targetting women or are not consciously treating women unequally - it's a divisive strategy that enables the oppressive hegemony to continue, but there you go, the system relies on the fact that we are basically all selfish creatures and motivated by self-interest

    Out of interest then, do you not consider the following feminist issues (ie, issues that affect only women) or just "socio-economic" ones?:

    - The fact that 90% of rape victims are women.
    - The media's representation of women as suggesting their worth is in their looks.
    - The pay gap.
    - Contraceptive and society's dislike of promiscuous women.

    I could go on. It seems to me those issues are specifically ones that affect largely women only.


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    #15
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    Count Duckula wrote: »
    Out of interest then, do you not consider the following feminist issues (ie, issues that affect only women) and just "socio-economic" ones?:

    Do you mean "and" or "or" there? Just looking for clarification before i get involved in this thread.


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    #16
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    I'm for equal rights across the board. It all comes down to fairness.


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    #17
    18AD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭18AD


    Count Duckula wrote: »
    - The fact that 90% of rape victims are women.
    - The media's representation of women as suggesting their worth is in their looks.
    - The pay gap.
    - Contraceptive and society's dislike of promiscuous women.

    I suspect there is a biological reason for all of these, except the pay gap.
    I am not saying that they are right, but they are not feminist issues just because women are the targets.
    Men being attracted to women is not sexism. Three of the things you mentioned involve sex (implicitly or explicitly), the one place you cannot avoid distinguishing blatantly between men and women.
    Equal rights does not imply that men and women are the same.


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    #18
    Count Duckula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Count Duckula


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Do you mean "and" or "or" there? Just looking for clarification before i get involved in this thread.

    I mean "or", sorry. I'll edit the original post.


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    #19
    Count Duckula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Count Duckula


    18AD wrote: »
    but they are not feminist issues just because women are the targets.

    Maybe we have different definitions of what feminism is, but I'd say something that - by your own admission - exclusively targets and affects women is most certainly a feminist issue.


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    #20
    Cicero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,144 ✭✭✭✭Cicero


    - the societal roles of men and women in Ireland these days are actually quite similar- if a couple, then both more than likely work to pay bills/develop careers/ raise family making joint decisions etc
    This would have been a much rarer occurance 30 years ago. Feminism these days in Ireland is more about celebrating differences rather than about "equality pursuance"


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    #21
    Count Duckula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Count Duckula


    Cicero wrote: »
    - the societal roles of men and women in Ireland these days are actually quite similar- if a couple, then both more than likely work to pay bills/develop careers/ raise family making joint decisions etc
    This would have been a much rarer occurance 30 years ago. Feminism these days in Ireland is more about celebrating differences rather than about "equality pursuance"

    Except studies show that women do on average two hours of housework a day, whereas men do thirty minutes.

    As you say, both genders are now going to work and having full days of employment, so is there still not some imbalance at play when, after that day, the woman is still required to do the majority of the housework?


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    #22
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Count Duckula wrote: »
    Except studies show that women do on average two hours of housework a day, whereas men do thirty minutes.

    As you say, both genders are now going to work and having full days of employment, so is there still not some imbalance at play when, after that day, the woman is still required to do the majority of the housework?

    expert studies :rolleyes: you can find an "expert study" claiming everything to blaming video games for ADD to immigrants stealing all the biscuits, thats daily mail reasoning. what about a house with two men living in it? like mine? or people with no kids or where the woman works and the man stays at home?

    Who lets their house get so messed up you need to spend 2hrs a day cleaning it? unless you live in Wayne Manor.


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    #23
    Cicero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,144 ✭✭✭✭Cicero


    Count Duckula wrote: »
    after that day, the woman is still required to do the majority of the housework?
    Required by who?
    And what statistics are you quoting and from what country?
    Do those same women who do 2 hours housework also do 2 hours Gardening, or household shopping or child minding?
    you see these women may simply elect to do 2 hours housework while their OH does other things to keep the household together....but of course the "studies" don't tell you that...do they?


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    #24
    Brendan Williamson
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Brendan Williamson


    Count Duckula wrote: »
    As you say, both genders are now going to work and having full days of employment, so is there still not some imbalance at play when, after that day, the woman is still required to do the majority of the housework?

    Not considering men work 4-6 hours more per week.

    Either way, i'm not denying that women do more housework, but in this day in age they're not expected to by any established societal norms, and in most marriages each person probably would've spent some time prior living alone and would be used to doing their own housework, not like 30 years ago when men went from having their mother do their washing to their wife, so if both parties are capable and expected to do housework, surely its more of a personal issue that each person should fix rather than blaming society for?


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    #25
    Count Duckula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Count Duckula


    Brendan Williamson wrote: »
    Not considering men work 4-6 hours more per week.

    Either way, i'm not denying that women do more housework, but in this day in age they're not expected to by any established societal norms, and in most marriages each person probably would've spent some time prior living alone and would be used to doing their own housework, not like 30 years ago when men went from having their mother do their washing to their wife, so if both parties are capable and expected to do housework, surely its more of a personal issue that each person should fix rather than blaming society for?

    But if it's a trend throughout the entirity of society, then surely it becomes more than just being a personal issue and does become a societal one.

    Am I to gather from this thread then that most men (at least here on Boards) believe there's no real need for feminism anymore; that women have now earned their rights equivalent to men's and there is no further progress on the matter to be made?


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    #26
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Count Duckula wrote: »
    But if it's a trend throughout the entirity of society, then surely it becomes more than just being a personal issue and does become a societal one.

    Am I to gather from this thread then that most men (at least here on Boards) believe there's no real need for feminism anymore; that women have now earned their rights equivalent to men's and there is no further progress on the matter to be made?

    the ceo of the company I work for is a woman, as are the majority of the managers and supervisors, its about 80% female give or take in there. theres no pay difference (afaik) with anyone in there given their gender.

    mens car insurance is higher, I (personally) know one guy whos been in a car accident (not his fault was rearended by someone texting) but three women who have been, all their fault. now does that mean women are safer drivers? nope, does it mean men are worse? nope, yet society deems they are.

    women get maternity leave of months, men get paternity leave of weeks, is that fair?

    I'm all for equality, a job is a job, pay shouldnt be affected by gender, but it should be the right person doing it, regardless of their junk.


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    #27
    Brendan Williamson
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Brendan Williamson


    Count Duckula wrote: »
    But if it's a trend throughout the entirity of society, then surely it becomes more than just being a personal issue and does become a societal one.

    ok i suppose i misspoke, but i still think its an easily fixable problem, for example i do less than my fair share of cleaning in my apartment, but my male roommate hasnt ever called me on it or tried to force me to better my ways, i wouldnt get away with that a female roommate, i know full well no matter how stubborn i was i'd be worn down and would have to change, i dont understand how this doesnt happen across the board. in conclusion fixing that specific issue, presuming it needed fixing, would be a personal endeavour and not part of the agenda of a feminist group at large.

    To answer your question, yes i do believe women have earned equal rights


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    #28
    18AD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭18AD


    Count Duckula wrote: »
    Maybe we have different definitions of what feminism is, but I'd say something that - by your own admission - exclusively targets and affects women is most certainly a feminist issue.

    So straight men being attracted to women is a feminist issue? Dresses being marketted to women is sexism?

    What is your definiton of feminism?


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    #29
    Count Duckula
    Closed Accounts Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Count Duckula


    18AD wrote: »
    So straight men being attracted to women is a feminist issue? Dresses being marketted to women is sexism?

    What is your definiton of feminism?

    I'll use Wiki's as it's a much better description:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism wrote:
    Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities for women.

    I don't think that marketing dresses comes into that, somehow. It's about giving women the opportunities that have historially been limited solely to men, and then empowering women to take those opportunities.

    But I asked a question and received and answer, so the thread's run it's course!


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    #30
    18AD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭18AD


    Count Duckula wrote: »
    But I asked a question and received and answer, so the thread's run it's course!

    Aw :( Oh well.

    Good hussle.


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    #31
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    Seriously CD - you are bringing housework up as a reason feminism is needed?

    That shows you how pathetic it is. What do you expect - a government official in every house ensuring the husband and wife both do equal shares of chores?

    Feminism has served its purpose. There are still some inequalities facing both genders but they pale in comparison to the inequalities caused by class divisions in society.

    There is no need for feminism anymore and there is no need for a male version either. If anything there should be an egalitarian movement addressing issues for both sides and challenging gender stereotypes.

    The only way to comprehensively abolish inequality is socialism/communism. F*ck that.


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