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01-03-2011, 19:59   #31
CDfm
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Wow CDfm, fair dues on the research!

He doesn't seem like the same guy.

I started with the stuff that interested me on the stonework. My surprise was that I know one of the churches done by James Senior.

His writing is stylised and magaziney in a Readers Digest or teachers way. Not to my taste. But , so what.

I don't know if he was homosexual ( and it wouldn't bother me if he was) but latent and tortured anything isn't screaming out at me here.

Anyway -glad you enjoyed it.Maybe others would pick up on stuff that interests them on it and maybe we can see more of the guy.
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02-03-2011, 09:37   #32
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Fasinating discussion lads, keep it coming!

can anyone recommend some decent reading material on the man and his life?

im a little bit apprehensive of dudley edwards...................or perhaps I can be swayed upon your recommendation

cheers!
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02-03-2011, 09:41   #33
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Fasinating discussion lads, keep it coming!

can anyone recommend some decent reading material on the man and his life?

im a little bit apprehensive of dudley edwards...................or perhaps I can be swayed upon your recommendation

cheers!
Housemate is not home til this evening and he is the know all in this house. I will ask him later and post links for you then
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02-03-2011, 09:44   #34
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Housemate is not home til this evening and he is the know all in this house. I will ask him later and post links for you then
cant wait
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02-03-2011, 11:49   #35
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I don't know if I would want to read Dudley Edwards book either. It does not look like she knows that much about him and resorts to psychobabble to fill the gaps.

A huge gap in her article on Pearse and his relationship with his half sister and brother and their families.If I could find it.........

I picked up what I did on an internet search looking for details of the work James & Willie did as monumental/ecclesiastical sculptors and where they could be seen in Dublin. So it was not hidden.

The blood sacrifice thing , I don't get that either, g-g-granduncle hanged by the British in 1798 in the family history. It was a distinct possibility that the leaders if put on trial would be executed. They knew they were not going to have a military victory( Willie did get harshly treated.). The death penalty did get used in those days - Lord Haw Haw executed 40 years later. So I dont buy it.

The girlfriend bit. He did not seem as isolated socially from the snippits I have read. Maybe he was a slow mover. And a popular literary magazine editor would have to have some social skills.

And, a more likely explanation for the isolated family reputation is the "family scandal" and people keeping schtum as opposed to anything else.

Just a few observations.
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02-03-2011, 13:00   #36
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I don't know if I would want to read Dudley Edwards book either. It does not look like she knows that much about him and resorts to psychobabble to fill the gaps.
That is simply not true. Maybe 1% of the book is 'pyschobabble'.
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02-03-2011, 14:17   #37
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That is simply not true. Maybe 1% of the book is 'pyschobabble'.

I dunno Denerick. I havent read the book - but here are some extracts from an article she wrote for the Indo.

http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/f...se-348632.html

Quote:
From boyhood he was single-minded and dedicated beyond the norm. A Pearse with a wife and family would have been obliged to concentrate more on reality than on romance
He assisted running the family business following his fathers death , it was dissolved owing to an economic slump and possibly the scandal involving his brother-in-law.


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Would Pearse have had the same yearning for immortality if he had had children? Or even the nieces and nephews denied him because of the strange inwardness of the Pearse family. None of the four children went into the Church, and yet none of them married or, apparently, had any normal sexual relationships. Pearse's three siblings seem to have sublimated their sexuality by helping their big brother with his cultural and educational causes
There were 6 in the blended family and not 4 and 2 of them married and Pearses ladyfriend drowned tragically. His half sisters husband ran off with the home help. He was friendly with his nephew, his half sisters son.

How can she talk about "strange inwardness" of a family she knows so little about - she gets the composition totally wrong.

The Pearse boys could also have been up & down to Monto every chance they got and she wouldnt know.


His sister, for instance, didn't want him at the GPO

Quote:
Mary Bridget, who suffered from depression, did not endear herself to nationalists after she reportedly told Patrick to come home and not be foolish during the siege in the GPO.
She may not have been disposed to marrying at all if she was suffering from depression.Depression is an illness.


http://www.tribune.ie/article/2002/f...s-family-apar/

So what I am saying , is she speculates ,which she is entitled to do, but she gets it factually wrong on the composition of his family etc.

Her article for the Independent would not draw me to her book.

I have mixed views on 1916 in Dublin and my grandfather was involved in Cork and felt it was the right thing. On the "Troubles" - he certainly didnt want his children or his grandchildren involved. That is another issue.

Michael Collins didnt consider Pearse much of a leader.

Anyway, the truth is a lot racier then what we normally read about Pearse and his life and makes it more believeable..
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02-03-2011, 19:29   #38
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Good points CDfm, many of those claims are just obviously absurd, Connolly and DeV both had a young family and wife for instance yet it didn't stop them, as did many others, Pearse hardly turned his back on romantic interests for that reason if he did stop taking an interest.
Dozens or perhaps hundreds of people similar to Mary Bridget asked their relatives and friends to give up or return home.
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02-03-2011, 22:35   #39
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Some pics from a Pearse Gallery


Pearse with a group of people, c. 1905.
(Back row, from left): William Pearse, Harry Clifton, Patrick Pearse, E. Ni Niocoil, Mr Geoghegan, (front row) Edward Sheridan, Professor Mary Hayen, [...]

I found a pic of Patrick Pearse with Eveleen Nicoll


Hannah Sheehy-Skeffington and Margaret Pearse c. 1921.
Margaret Pearse was the mother of Pádraig and William Pearse. A native of Co. Meath, she joined Sinn Féin after the 1916 Rising. She was elected a Sin [...]

Pádraig Pearse in his barrister's robes c. 1914.


And there are more here

http://multitext.ucc.ie/viewgallery/1269

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02-03-2011, 22:54   #40
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Now here is a link that discribes in a page how the standard historians view Pearse



http://www.jstor.org/pss/2709801
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02-03-2011, 23:04   #41
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@ CDfm,

I really wish Ruth Dudley Edwards didn't write her stupid columns in the Daily Mail and in the Indo. It makes it ever more difficult to enjoy her biography of Pearse (Which I have always found interesting, a little explosive, but contrary to general opinion actually rather fair)
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02-03-2011, 23:31   #42
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The bit the hits out at me here is that Pearses personal failure as an " artist , educator and dramatist lead him to embrace violent republicanism"

So what do we know of Pearse and his career.

We know that at 22 in 1900 his Dad died and the Census in 1901 lists him as the Head of the Household.

We also know that he had qualified as a Barrister - but we do not know if he was attached to any Chambers - young barristers often are subsidised by their families. Is it reasonable that he could have pursued a career at Law at that time.

As an artist/writer well he worked as Editor of An Claidheamh Soluis / Conragh Na Gaelige from 1903 to 1909 and accounts have him as being sucessful.

Do we know if he made any money out of it.??

Dramatist ? - he and his brother ran a business and were brought up with the concept of a buyer and a seller. He also sometimes called himself a sculptor.

He set up St Enda's in 1909 - his brother in law Alfred McGlouglain drew up the plans and suddenly disappeared. His mother is installed as the housekeeper in the new venture and his brother a sculptor of some promise accepts commisions while teaching Art & Physical Education at the school.

Now , you don't have to be a historian to give this a shot.

The Second Part of his adult life is post An Claidheamh Soluis when he set up St Enda's, Irish Volunteers , etc. His Dad had been a Parnellite etc.

The theory on Pearse has been "suicide by uprising" .
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02-03-2011, 23:54   #43
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@ CDfm,

I really wish Ruth Dudley Edwards didn't write her stupid columns in the Daily Mail and in the Indo. It makes it ever more difficult to enjoy her biography of Pearse (Which I have always found interesting, a little explosive, but contrary to general opinion actually rather fair)
Hi Denerick.

I just latched on to this by accident after asking about Pearse sculptures and finding some references to a lost side of the family. I wanted to find out more about James Senior & William. I thought I knew about Patrick.

What I am trying to do here is ask questions and probing the theories.

I have done this with John Jinks too.

I really would like to know more and we know that the gaps were there for a reason.

It is also an interesting piece of social history too.

So is the Pearse here the man you knew.

CD
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03-03-2011, 01:28   #44
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Pearses school was not a Financial Success and he was responsible for making Irish compulsory for entry into the NUI.

By extention he made Irish compulsory in Irish schools or at least influenced it,

Quote:
Prof Declan Kiberd, Professor of Anglo Irish literature and drama at UCD with Dr Brendan Walsh and Dr Gerry McNamara, Head of School of Education studies

Dr Brendan Walsh, lecturer in history of education, educational policy and teaching methodology at DCU, recently launched his book entitled ‘The Pedagogy of Protest: The Educational Thought and Work of Patrick H. Pearse’
ZSA

Irish & NUI Entry - Pearses legacy



Quote:
However, Pearse’s final triumph, in this regard, was in leading the campaign to have Irish made obligatory for entry to the NUI.
He argued with lots of people

Quote:
The omission is remarkable given that Pearse devoted his adult life to education and the campaign to revive the Irish language, which often led him into bitter disputes with education commissioners, civil servants, bishops and the Gaelic League. Pearse’s belief that successive British administrations were prepared to allow the language to slip into oblivion appears justified, according to Walsh, with an unwillingness by the Treasury to continue funding the language at a time when it was among the most popular school subjects
Many former St Enda's pupils joined him in the rising.



Quote:



Pearse’s belief that successive British administrations were prepared to allow the language to slip into oblivion appears justified, according to Walsh, with an unwillingness by the Treasury to continue funding the language at a time when it was among the most popular school subjects. However, Pearse’s final triumph, in this regard, was in leading the campaign to have Irish made obligatory for entry to the NUI. The book looks in detail at a host of issues from the history of the language at university level in Ireland, British thinking on the supremacy of English and the role of the vernacular, and provides a thorough study of Pearse’s theory of bilingual teaching as a means of reviving Irish. In addition, the first complete account of Pearse’s sound educational work at St Enda’s – while at Cullenswood House, Ranelagh and the Hermitage, Rathfarnham – is provided at length. In light of primary source material and taped interviews with past pupils and colleagues, Pearse emerges as a humane, energetic and inspirational teacher, not least in the school’s theatrical presentations and outstanding sporting achievements. The riskier side of life at St Enda’s is not glossed over by Walsh, from the financial difficulties Pearse experienced and falling enrolments to the role of nationalism and his advocacy of physical force separatism. Clearly, the latter two impacted heavily on his pupils, many of whom fought alongside him in the GPO during the Easter Rising.
His finances were precarious from the very begining and he was refused a loan for the venture. So he may have been very reckless.

Also, his educational aspirations may have influenced his shift to an extremer form of nationalism. Look around and we see 30 teachers in the new Dail and 38 in the last one.

He may have personalised the issues.



http://www.jstor.org/pss/30101320

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03-03-2011, 12:03   #45
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Here is a very interesting Article on publishing the schools magazine.

Even boards.ie is not owned by a benevolent benefactor but has to pay it way in the form of advertising.

Anyone who has worked in publishing will know that the revenue of a magazine is a combination of (cover price sales) and advertising sales revenue.

This article is by Dr Colum Kenny of DCU Lecturer in Communications.


Quote:
How to publish, and be damned


Sunday Apr 15 2001
Letters to Colum Kenny's grandfather show Patrick Pearse's pragmatism over An Macaomh and its debtTWO unpublished letters have lain among my family's papers for 90 years. They show Patrick Pearse to have been a practical man when it came to the realities of publishing.
The future Irish political martyr, who was to die in the Rebellion that broke out on Easter Sunday 1916, worked for many years as a teacher and writer. But he was also a businessman, forever struggling to make ends meet running St Enda's School in south Dublin and financing various publications that contained a romantic, nationalist view of Irish life.
When it came to paying for his publications Pearse worked with one of my grandfathers, the late Kevin J Kenny, who had founded the first Irish advertising service in the last decade of the 19th century. Among other activists with whom my grandfather worked commercially were Arthur Griffith and Joseph Mary Plunkett. Plunkett also died in 1916.
Between contending images of Patrick Pearse as a poetic idealist or as a dangerous romantic, there is little enough room to glimpse the man as a pragmatic organiser. But the two letters he wrote in 1910 to my grandfather reveal Pearse's attention to detail in the mundane matter of financing An Macaomh (Youth). This was the magazine of St Enda's, the Irish-language school he founded in Rathfarnham two years earlier.
Previously unpublished, the letters show Pearse guiding Kenny towards potential advertisers, people with whom St Enda's did business or whose sons were at the school. "We must make this issue pay," Pearse told his agent in December 1910. He added that "no time is to be lost" and urged my grandfather to, "for God's sake, make the best use you can of these two days ... ".
A few weeks earlier, Pearse had admitted to his friend Seán T O'Ceallaigh, the future president of Ireland, that "I need money badly at the moment". The hero of 1916 was chronically in debt.
Pearse's key role in the formation of this state was explained last week in a new documentary on the patriot, made independently for RTÉ by Mint Productions. Even staunch critics of Pearse's nationalist legacy, such as Conor Cruise O'Brien, were prepared to acknowledge the quality of his commitment to education and to the Irish language.
One of the ironies of the new state, although ostensibly founded on foot of the 1916 Rebellion, was that it ignored Pearse's more radical ideas on education. His school in Rathfarnham was let die by Dev. Much later, St Enda's became a museum.
It was from St Enda's ("Telephone: 8 Rathfarnham") that he wrote to my grandfather on December 7, 1910. He was worried that the school's publication might falter after a promising start:
A chara, We must print off An Macaomh on Monday or Tuesday next, so as to have it on [COLOR=#009900 ! important]sale[/COLOR] before Aonach na Nolag is over and before the boys go home for vacation. I hope you have made good progress with adverts and hand in copy as you get it to Dollard [the printer]. Make a great effort this time to have adverts up to mark. Last issue would have paid if adverts had been anything like they were in first issue. We must make this issue pay. No time is to be lost. Yours P.H.Pearse.
[P.S.] You should get advts. from William Magee, Grocer, 7 Rathmines Tce., W. Landy, Bakeries, Rathfarnham, and Meyers & Co., Furniture Removers, Ironmongers, etc., 44 Highfield Rd., with all of whom we are dealing largely this year; try also P.Horan, Tailor, 63 Dame St., who has three boys here. Also McCabes, Fishmongers, Rathmines Road, and L.Nugent, Irish Creamery, Lr.Baggot St., with whom we deal.
Five days later, Pearse had received the proofs of some articles from the printer but was still anxious about his finances. He wrote again to Kevin J. Kenny:
A chara, Enclosed have been sent to me. You had better return them to Dollard, corrected. I have only corrected the obvious mistakes in the Irish, not read them through carefully, so you will have to do this. For God's sake make the best use you can of these two days, and have as many adverts as possible by to-morrow night. Try Eastman's, Rathmines, and Purcell, Cigar Merchant, 16 N. Earl St. Make a good show. It will be a good number. P.H.Pearse.
IN leaving my grandfather to sort out the practical problems of correcting proofs and raising cash, Pearse allowed himself time to concentrate on his ideals. Those ideals, expressed by Pearse and others so nobly in the Proclamation of Easter Sunday 1916, later left the new State with a legacy of aspirations against which to measure actual political achievements.
Last week on TV the current Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, spoke of how he and "people like me" are motivated by Patrick Pearse and the other heroes of 1916. Cynical viewers might have responded with a quip of my late grandfather, which was that if Pearse were alive today he would be spinning in his grave.
* Dr Colum Kenny is a senior lecturer in Communications at DCU




Read more: http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/...#ixzz1FXDhARiy
What I am interested in here really is Pearses life and finances between say 1900 & 1909 and specifically if he made any money writting and editing An Claidheamh Soluis.

The other thing -was did he contribute in any way to the running of Pearse & Sons .

So , what do we know about his occupation & lifestyle ?

Did he bet on horses , did he like a pint etc.

It has been said that Patrick dressed in womens clothes and went to Monto . Now I have looked for a source and all I got was Dublins walking tours.

I dont know what students were like in those days but I have been a rock festivals in Germany where lads do that and

Quote:
2: The Monto
The largest and most famous European Red-Light district in 19th century Europe �The Monto� was mainly situated in Montgomery Street, now Foley Street. According to the Enclyclopaedia Britannica the prostitutes of The Monto were �even more forward than those of Algiers�. It was popular with both Kings and Rebels, King Edward VII supposedly lost his virginity there and seemingly Patrick and Willie Pearse liked to wander through its streets dressed as women. (!) James Joyce situated a whole chapter of Ulysses in the area, listing the various prices of the girls on offer. What a martyr to his research that man was! Politicians of course were regular clients. During the early years of the Free State it was said that �when the Senate is open The Monto is full�. But eventually Holy Catholic Ireland intervened in the form of the Legion of Mary. Piously they paraded up and down the streets pinning pictures of the Virgin Mary on all the Brothel doors while their founder, Frank Duff recited the rosary. It worked. For the next sixty years we had no sex in Ireland. Honest.
http://www.historicalinsights.ie/art...yofireland.php

The Classic in Rathgar ran the Rocky Horror Show for 21 years - so there is no real inference one way or the other here. Now I havent been but quite a few friends who lived in the area and are heterosexual used to make the trip. Some dressed up.

http://myhome.iolfree.ie/~ccdublin/albert_kelly_rip.htm

So what was the guy like in that decade in his 20's - 1900 to 1910 ???


Last edited by CDfm; 03-03-2011 at 12:07.
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